in Shump's defense..

[suicidedeuce]

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're being dishonest. The alternative is that you have some sort of deeper ... issue. The NBA did NOT punish the Timberwolves only because they reduced their impermissible agreement to writing. THAT was your argument. That only the contract itself was the problem. No. In fact, the contract just provide ready proof of the illicit agreement. Had they somehow gotten other proof, such as an audio recording, they would have issued the same punishment. You said no -- it was the contract itself that was the problem and only the contract.

And I'm saying so again. The written contract was the only problem.

You were flatly proven wrong. 100%. Completely. Utterly. Fully.

Remind me of this "proof"?

And again, you're proving you'll only engage in a discussion in which you feel you're right. Feel good about that?

That you'll continue to engage me over and over and over and over again and only select what you what to respond to and then accuse me of dodging question is about as intellectually dishonest as you can get.

[MaseInYourFace]

I always find it funny that when the team plays really bad defense as a team you then start hearing all this talk about Shumpert being overrated defensively or just average. The long term eye test and the stats back up that he is a very good defender and is pretty close to being considered among the top perimeter defenders.

he is not top perimeter defender. he has tools to be one of them and selected for best D team.

with the eye test: shumpert cant lock down opponent in critical plays.
sometimes knicks get 6-0, 7-0 like series and opponent gets stress and their SG against shumpert can score efficiently.
in big moments i dont see shump do excellent defensive work.
even 38 year old j.kidd was defending opponent stars effectively. shump gambles and lets easy points. in big moments he tends to foul easily.

also shumps offense triggers bad team defense sometimes. when he keep missing 3s on offense teams defensive focus decrease.

***

all in all he is good defender. his motor is good. height, wingspan, quickness, strenght are all good.
but he isnt top defender. he isnt always contribute us when he's playing.
shump can get minus stats.

i think he should be starter but thjr and jr.smith are needed where he left off.

Fair enough. I just don't think the gap from where he is now to being a top defender is that big. That being said he might not improve much more and he might not ever get there.

[KnicksGod]

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're being dishonest. The alternative is that you have some sort of deeper ... issue. The NBA did NOT punish the Timberwolves only because they reduced their impermissible agreement to writing. THAT was your argument. That only the contract itself was the problem. No. In fact, the contract just provided ready proof of the illicit agreement. Had they somehow gotten other proof, such as an audio recording, they would have issued the same punishment. You said no -- it was the contract itself that was the problem and only the contract.

And I'm saying so again. The written contract was the only problem.

You were flatly proven wrong. 100%. Completely. Utterly. Fully.

Remind me of this "proof"?

And again, you're proving you'll only engage in a discussion in which you feel you're right. Feel good about that?

That you'll continue to engage me over and over and over and over again and only select what you what to respond to and then accuse me of dodging question is about as intellectually dishonest as you can get.

I'm embarrassed for you.

[R-DAWG]

I'm a believer that Melo doens't have a real position, he's a hybrid. Sometimes he's best at the 3, other times best at the 4. Look at the way the Heat used Lebron. Sometimes they started Battier at the 3 and Lebron at the 4, other's Lebron at the 3 and Hasslem at the 4. They put their best player in the best possible match up for him offensively and defensibly and had 2 quality vets who came in and did their job when needed and didn't say a word when they took a DNP. Idealy, that's the kind of roster I would like around Melo, a Hasslem type and Battier type to play alongside Melo. Combine that with an elite big man (Marc Gasol) and another backcourt scorer and you got something working out.

I don't see why Cleanthony Early can't be the SF in this scenario and if we end up with a top 12 pick the guy Harzell from Louisville can be the PF in the combo.

[Deeeez Knicks]

There are certain things that aren't measured by stats. First and foremost are bball IQ, style of play, and chemistry.

Whether those things can be measured is beside the point. Its how they effect the game that CAN of course be measured, and if they can't, they don't significantly affect the game.

What players can fit next to which players in which system.

82games measures the effectiveness of each and every 5 man unit that plays during a season.

If there is a combination of players that compliment one another and play with good chemistry, wouldn't it stand to reason their superior play would manifest itself in superior results vs. alternative 5 man units?

And if not, why would it be of any significance?

A perfect is example is the Bargs trade. You were for this trade and pointed to stats on why it could work. Bargs could help with scoring. I pointed to that he was a terrible fit and the stats didn't do his awfulness justice. The eye test was right in this case. Despite that he could put up decent stats, Bargs is just not a good player.

There were also stats that showed his negative impact in Toronto. I highlighted the stats I thought could prove a benefit because I thought the Knicks could get the most of the good and marginalize the bad.

I was certainly wrong on that front under the small sample size under Mike Woodson 2013-14 provided.

2 points is 2 points, but there are just so many other things that happen on the court. There's a lot of how and why. Maybe its a great swing pass, a screen, great rotation on D, the pass that led to the pass that led to a basket. Basically watching what takes place can give you a lot of info on how certain players play on both ends and how they could fit next to other players or in certain systems. Maybe stats won't tell you that this guy (cough cough JR) takes a lot of dumb shots or over dribbles thus hurting the flow of the offens. When you process all of this info you can get a better idea of whats going on when you combine them with stats.

82games watches all these things are makes a record of them. How are they misleading? What don't they tell us?

You really need to do both. Judging by your support for Amare, Bargs and JR I'd suggest watching more games.

I watched the games. When JR Smith played well, the KNicks played well. When Amare Stoudemire started, the Knicks played well.

Aren't I concluding exactly what you advocate?

well, even 82games does not advocate a reliance on these stats. They even acknowledge there is a lot more going on.

While we never advocate reliance on 'overall rating' type metrics for players since we believe that "fit" within a team's roster and coaching schemes, financial considerations and other factors play a considerable part in player evaluation, it can be useful to gauge quickly how a player stacks up in certain statistical categories.
The main components of the 'Simple Ratings' are a production measure (a variant of John Hollinger's PER rating) for a player's own stats versus the counterpart player on the other team while he is on the court, as well as a simple on court/off court plus minus. This rating is actually more of a placeholder until the more sophisticated analysis we produce is made public, but still offers a good fast read on player performance.

They still are great stats and can be vey informative. I have been following 82games since they came out. I remember when Marbury was rated one of the top players in the league. They just do not tell the entire story like any stat.

[seren]

Vucevic got his extension too. PJ needs to stop fooling around and extend Shump already.

[suicidedeuce]

well, even 82games does not advocate a reliance on these stats. They even acknowledge there is a lot more going on.

Again, the point isn't any one stat. It's looking at everything as a whole.

[Deeeez Knicks]

well, even 82games does not advocate a reliance on these stats. They even acknowledge there is a lot more going on.

Again, the point isn't any one stat. It's looking at everything as a whole.

then how come there are constantly new stats coming out that record things that have never been statistics before? If all the stats we have already gave the entire picture, then that would be impossible. The fact that NBA statistics are constantly evolving and improving is undeniable proof that currently not everything is being recorded.

Stats are great and get better every year. But the fact that they are evolving and improving is proof that they do not record everything.

[Scalabrine]

I saw this reading how Melo should go back to the four. The article was simply showing how advanced stats wise Melo is the 3rd best player in the league at the four spot.

Anyway I see that Shump's defense is a huge difference maker for our team.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HerringWSJ/s ... 80/photo/1

It reads the 9.3 dropoff without Shump is the equivalent difference between the Bulls defense and 6ers.

Melo is the 3rd best player in the league at the 3 spot too...

[GYK]

I saw this reading how Melo should go back to the four. The article was simply showing how advanced stats wise Melo is the 3rd best player in the league at the four spot.

Anyway I see that Shump's defense is a huge difference maker for our team.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HerringWSJ/s ... 80/photo/1

It reads the 9.3 dropoff without Shump is the equivalent difference between the Bulls defense and 6ers.

Melo is the 3rd best player in the league at the 3 spot too...

very true. I always felt that's why he's judged so harshly. We look and go why aren't we in the finals already.

[Scalabrine]

I saw this reading how Melo should go back to the four. The article was simply showing how advanced stats wise Melo is the 3rd best player in the league at the four spot.

Anyway I see that Shump's defense is a huge difference maker for our team.

https://mobile.twitter.com/HerringWSJ/s ... 80/photo/1

It reads the 9.3 dropoff without Shump is the equivalent difference between the Bulls defense and 6ers.

Melo is the 3rd best player in the league at the 3 spot too...

very true. I always felt that's why he's judged so harshly. We look and go why aren't we in the finals already.

Pretty sure its because Durant gets Westbrook and Ibaka, LeBron got Wade and Bosh (now Irving, Love, Waiters), and Melo gets Bargnani and Calderon, even two years ago, the 2nd and 3rd best players were Tyson Chandler (missed a bunch of games) and JR Smith that just doesnt cut it.

I still think Durant and LeBron are better players but damn, what a difference a good team around Melo would make when it comes to public opinion.

[GYK]

Pretty sure its because Durant gets Westbrook and Ibaka, LeBron got Wade and Bosh (now Irving, Love, Waiters), and Melo gets Bargnani and Calderon, even two years ago, the 2nd and 3rd best players were Tyson Chandler (missed a bunch of games) and JR Smith that just doesnt cut it.

I still think Durant and LeBron are better players but damn, what a difference a good team around Melo would make when it comes to public opinion.

I totally agree. That's why I appreciate watching him. I just know he can take us there. I just fear we might never get the players..I pray for Mudiay. All things will fall from there.

[Pharmcat]

shump is what he is

injury prone, cant finish at rim, inconsistent J, good defender

he is a role player on a winning team

[shumpisFIELDS]

shump is what he is

injury prone, cant finish at rim, inconsistent J, good defender

he is a role player on a winning team

I agree.


I also think that a lot of Melo at the 4 is a red herring because a lot of his success, both Melo and shump, came in 2012, when we were a much better team with a real offensive identity and adequate PG play.