Phil says "My Fault!"

[kosmovitelli]

Hiring one of hte worst coaches of all time.
Drafting Jordan Hill
Lee trade that netted us Randolph who is a waste of talent if I ever saw one.
Giving away Zbo and JCraw for pennies on the dollar.
Lying about building the team the right way when it is 100% fact that his plan b after missing out on Bron was to pair Amare with Joe Johnson. Thankfully JJ said no thanks.

But yeah lets all just focus on the Melo trade. Smh.

Lee was a S+T that his agent pushed for. Zbo and Jamal were casualties of the unabashed pursuit of Lebron. He did what he could. I'm not trying to argue about Donnie Walsh, though. You seem very angry and I'm not sure why.

He indeed made mistakes but that stuff about Joe Johnson 'which I've seen a few times recently) is untrue. Joe Johnson received a max offer from the Hawks on june 30 a few hours before free agency started. Walsh never had any intention to pair him with Amare (who agreed to sign with the Knicks a few days after free agency started and only after the Suns refused to give him a fully guaranteed contract for five years). Before Lebron's Decision on july 12, there was hope Knicks could have both Amare and Lebron but there was never a plan to pair Amare and Johnson. Lebron was the number one target and Walsh knew very well Johnson would re-up with the Hawks because he was friend with Arn Tellem (Joe Johnson's agent) and that's why he didn't even meet Joe Johnson (D'Antoni and Allan Houston did). For what it's worth, Atlanta's GM Rick Sund and Arn Tellem already had an agreement on a max contract, the scheduled meetings and the rest was just a charade to convince the owner to green-light the contract. Arn Tellem and Wlash had a long history together because Tellem was Reggie Miller's agent and also represented Mark Jackson, Jalen Rose and Jermaine O"Neal. That's why Walsh knews days in advance Joe Johnson would re-up with the Hawks. Arn Tellem and Donnie Walsh are long time friends, they met in the mid-80s, they have a long history together.

The Atlanta Hawks offered Joe Johnson a six-year, $119 million contract Thursday morning, and sources close to the All-Star guard expect him to accept the max deal soon.

The Hawks moved quickly at midnight ET to try to secure their franchise star and offered the contract that Johnson’s agent Arn Tellem sought from the organization. Sources say ownership OK’d the max offer and general manager Rick Sund delivered it in Los Angeles.

After receiving the Hawks’ offer, Johnson met with a contingent from the New York Knicks that included coach Mike D’Antoni, Johnson’s former coach with the Phoenix Suns. Knicks GM Donnie Walsh didn’t attend.

The Houston Rockets and Dallas Mavericks were pushing for meetings with Johnson on Thursday afternoon in Los Angeles where they could discuss possible sign-and-trade scenarios. The Chicago Bulls also have interest in Johnson.

Adrian Wojnarowski, 3:15 a.m. ET, July 1

[don't panac]

that's the problem with this kind of planning in general. when you trade every player away and give up basically 2 1st round picks like walsh did to get rid of jeffries and clear cap space, you can't come up empty handed. walsh couldn't turn around and say "sorry, there's nobody worth getting". phil has put himself in a similar position. phil's advantage is the draft pick this summer and that it's only his 1st year. next year the pressure is on though.

Exactly. You need assets. Because you can't put all your eggs in one basket. No team I can remember has just been able to build a contender through free agency. Doesn't work that way.

I still can't believe people are defending Walsh. It boggles the mind.

What is it that you want? A full rebuild? With what asset? We're in no way shape the Sixers or Celtics with a treasure trove of players or draft picks.

Like you said, free agency is not a good way to build a perennial contender but the Knicks already have a major piece that they think can bring them to the promise land. Melo.

You're adding a franchise player + top 3 pick + free agency. If that top 3 pick pans out, that's another franchise player in our starting lineup. I dont' see how this is a bad situation for the Knicks.

ven if it pans out, none of the current projected top draft peek will likely be a franchise player in the first two-three years (melo's window), so to get a franchise-level FA is the key part, to become competitive right away.

i realistic hope is to get decent next year and then add another big piece in 2016

[mpharris36]

i haven't heard much discussed about Phil saying he would be active and that it shouldn't surprise anyone if more players get dealt.

"movement will happen over the next month and we want to participate in it"

also he referenced antonio mcdyess being the wrong moves to make and building the right way. That sounds like they do want to draft and bring in a young player instead of trading it no matter where we land.

[PMFJB]

Hiring one of hte worst coaches of all time.
Drafting Jordan Hill
Lee trade that netted us Randolph who is a waste of talent if I ever saw one.
Giving away Zbo and JCraw for pennies on the dollar.
Lying about building the team the right way when it is 100% fact that his plan b after missing out on Bron was to pair Amare with Joe Johnson. Thankfully JJ said no thanks.

But yeah lets all just focus on the Melo trade. Smh.

Lee was a S+T that his agent pushed for. Zbo and Jamal were casualties of the unabashed pursuit of Lebron. He did what he could. I'm not trying to argue about Donnie Walsh, though. You seem very angry and I'm not sure why.

He indeed made mistakes but that stuff about Joe Johnson 'which I've seen a few times recently) is untrue. Joe Johnson received a max offer from the Hawks on june 30 a few hours before free agency started. Walsh never had any intention to pair him with Amare (who agreed to sign with the Knicks a few days after free agency started and only after the Suns refused to give him a fully guaranteed contract for five years). Before Lebron's Decision on july 12, there was hope Knicks could have both Amare and Lebron but there was never a plan to pair Amare and Johnson. Lebron was the number one target and Walsh knew very well Johnson would re-up with the Hawks because he was friend with Arn Tellem (Joe Johnson's agent) and that's why he didn't even meet Joe Johnson (D'Antoni and Allan Houston did). For what it's worth, Atlanta's GM Rick Sund and Arn Tellem already had an agreement on a max contract, the scheduled meetings and the rest was just a charade to convince the owner to green-light the contract. Arn Tellem and Wlash had a long history together because Tellem was Reggie Miller's agent and also represented Mark Jackson, Jalen Rose and Jermaine O"Neal. That's why Walsh knews days in advance Joe Johnson would re-up with the Hawks. Arn Tellem and Donnie Walsh are long time friends, they met in the mid-80s, they have a long history together.

The Atlanta Hawks offered Joe Johnson a six-year, $119 million contract Thursday morning, and sources close to the All-Star guard expect him to accept the max deal soon.

The Hawks moved quickly at midnight ET to try to secure their franchise star and offered the contract that Johnson’s agent Arn Tellem sought from the organization. Sources say ownership OK’d the max offer and general manager Rick Sund delivered it in Los Angeles.

After receiving the Hawks’ offer, Johnson met with a contingent from the New York Knicks that included coach Mike D’Antoni, Johnson’s former coach with the Phoenix Suns. Knicks GM Donnie Walsh didn’t attend.

The Houston Rockets and Dallas Mavericks were pushing for meetings with Johnson on Thursday afternoon in Los Angeles where they could discuss possible sign-and-trade scenarios. The Chicago Bulls also have interest in Johnson.

Adrian Wojnarowski, 3:15 a.m. ET, July 1

http://nypost.com/2014/11/15/brooklyn-s ... y-a-knick/
You guys really need to learn to do some research before you talk.

[god shammgod]

i haven't heard much discussed about Phil saying he would be active and that it shouldn't surprise anyone if more players get dealt.

"movement will happen over the next month and we want to participate in it"

also he referenced antonio mcdyess being the wrong moves to make and building the right way. That sounds like they do want to draft and bring in a young player instead of trading it no matter where we land.

who's left besides calderon to trade ?

[mpharris36]

i haven't heard much discussed about Phil saying he would be active and that it shouldn't surprise anyone if more players get dealt.

"movement will happen over the next month and we want to participate in it"

also he referenced antonio mcdyess being the wrong moves to make and building the right way. That sounds like they do want to draft and bring in a young player instead of trading it no matter where we land.

who's left besides calderon to trade ?

me thinks THjr

[Deeeez Knicks]

Maybe Phil can get in a 3 team deal using the exceptions too.

[god shammgod]

i haven't heard much discussed about Phil saying he would be active and that it shouldn't surprise anyone if more players get dealt.

"movement will happen over the next month and we want to participate in it"

also he referenced antonio mcdyess being the wrong moves to make and building the right way. That sounds like they do want to draft and bring in a young player instead of trading it no matter where we land.

who's left besides calderon to trade ?

me thinks THjr

i hope both are gone but still...you probably need a rotation player back. you can't sign 7-8 players over the summer.

[mpharris36]

Maybe Phil can get in a 3 team deal using the exceptions too.

yup a couple of those larger TPE could be of use to maybe grab an extra couple 2nds

but the only issue I see with that is that, you can usually bye late 2nd round picks and if we bring in a couple in a 5-6 million dollar player with an expiring to save a team money. With us still in the luxury tax it would be like Dolan paying 10-12 million for a second round pick (dollar for dollar over the tax level)

lot of money for a 2nd, but maybe if the 2nd round picks are worthwhile enough we pull the trigger. Early 2nd rounderes are usually very nice assets. Not so much late 2nd rounders, those can be bought.

[Fury]

Not only do things have to go right for the Knicks, but the dude behind the moves HAS TO INTEND FOR THOSE THINGS TO HAPPEN BECAUSE AARGH YOU TRICKED US

[kosmovitelli]

Kos - I think that's right. Donnie was the much more experienced exec but Phil has support of Dolan. More - Dolan is invested in Phil because he made it happen. That gives Phil a chance to operate more autonomously but it will take him awhile - at least a little longer - to get up to speed. For his skill for team building to match his imagination. So, that's the downside.

Regarding Mills - I'm not seeing how everyone expected Phil to fire a guy that was so instrumental in recruiting him. Especially if they do, in fact, get along for the most part. To turn around and fire him would seem a bit backhanded. If Mills is interfering, Phil won't tolerate it for long, imo.

About Mills, Jimmy Dolan said both Phil Jackson and Steve Mills would report directly to him, meaning Phil wouldn't be Mills' boss and thus has no power to fire him. What I meant in my previous post is I wished Dolan fired Mills and told Phil he was free to hire any GM he wanted to help him build the team.

About the rest I agree, the main reason for optimism is the fact Phil Jackson was Dolan's choice and Jimmy seems to trust Phil Jackson who probably has the same autonomy Isiah Thomas had 10 years ago when he was hired by Mills and Dolan.

Phil indeed needs time but with Melo, I doubt he will be given that kind of time. Remember he said he thought the team was good enough to make the playoffs and that's the stuff Dolan wants to hear. And probably one of the reasons he was hired. If Phil told Dolan he needed to trade Melo and rebuild from scratch I doubt he would have been offered the job. I'm 100% sure Dolan offered him the job because he was a big name (who could appease the fans and help sell tickets) and he thought Phil could right the ship with Melo and he was the one who could make it work with Melo. Phil's a rookie but he's not getting any younger so it's even more complicated for him. The team's worse than he thought, when he accepted the job he never had any intention to rebuild. He thought he could win with Melo as a centerpiece. With Melo and Phil aging, it can't be a 5 or 10 year plan, this season's lost but they both need results and wins as soon as next year. Same for the fans. With a top 5 pick looming, fans don't mind right now but there will be tremendous pressure on Phil next summer with the draft and free agency. He will need to show results next year and that's why I fear he may head in the wrong direction and overspend on aging or marginal talent to win now. That's the trap he needs to avoid. He should be patient and take it step by step but with his age, his legacy, Melo and Dolan and the pressure of MSG brass, he may be tempted to accelerate the process...

[mpharris36]

i hope both are gone but still...you probably need a rotation player back. you can't sign 7-8 players over the summer.

i wouldn't mind both being traded but they both are in shooting slumps right now so maybe playing with Melo the next few games gets them back there shooting touch.

More so with THjr as, Calderon is Calderon, I still think people value his skills. I believe Ira Winderman spoke about the heat possibly having interest in Calderon. Who has a close relationship with Bosh.

I just wouldn't trade them in a package for nothing though. You just hold on to them until you get a solid deal.

Hahn says it sounds like knicks still looking at Reggie Jackson which would make value sense. We know he is leaving next year and most teams might be scared he would just be a rental. If the knicks have a plan to use that Cap space they can keep his smaller cap hold. Sign a few FA and then go over to sign Reggie. I just don't know the type of package OKC would require.

You gotta think Melo, Early, Thanasis, and Pablo (unless he gets traded), Cole, and Acy (maybe Galloway or Wear). That is 7-8 players. Phil talked about having 5-6 new guys next year but that might have to chance. So we may need more like 7-8 new players and including in that 3-4 starters which will be tough.

but you do have a first round pick, and if he does decide to get rid of Timmy and Calderon. You would be looking at over 37 million in space after all the holds which could easily net you 2 great players and you figure out the rest later. Or 2 good players and and a few other pieces.

Whatever you get for Calderon and THjr would either need to be a late first next year(that could help you) or a young player like a reggie jackson that is cheaper that is a starting calibre player.

[nykballa2k4]

NY could have looked to trade David Lee during the 2008-2009 season therefore the team acquiring him would have had him for the 09 playoffs and then as a restricted free agent. In that scenario a team would give up more than doing a sign and trade with an unrestricted free agent.

The package NY got for Lee was horse **** because they waited to long to trade him.

but if we trade Lee and strike out on Amare/Boozer then we actually get worse and don't even have our unfettered pick to play with....

The whole hind-sight viewing is not helpful. Lee was plan C. That's why he was held onto.

If we trade lee the 2009 pick is that much higher. Instead of freaking Jordan Hill we could be looking at Rubio/Curry/Harden. Maybe even the top pick. But he wanted to do what Phil wanted to do. Stay competitive. Phil just lucked out his competitive turned out to be ****.

But anyone defending a two year tank just to sign Amare /JJ is arguing just to argue. You are delusional if you think that is ok.

Anyone talking about trading David Lee in 2009 is practicing hindsight that no one had. And if we had obtained JJ and Amare we'd have been better 2010-2011. JJ is obviously better than Buike+Turiaf+AR+Felton and was a perfect fit for Mike's system. We would have been a playoff team right away and had young players to develop into supplimental talent. We could have been in a good position to move for Deron when he became available.
Knowing what we do now about all the player involved obviously you can say "wow that would have been terrible" but each of those moves made at the time they were made could have been viewed as a success. It stands to reason that we would have Amare, Kmart, Melo, JJ, Lin in 2011/12 with Fields, JR, Jerome Jordan, Copeland, Novak, Kurt, Sheed as part of that run. Mike n Mike could have arguably made noise in the playoffs.

[nykballa2k4]

If we trade lee the 2009 pick is that much higher. Instead of freaking Jordan Hill we could be looking at Rubio/Curry/Harden. Maybe even the top pick. But he wanted to do what Phil wanted to do. Stay competitive. Phil just lucked out his competitive turned out to be ****.

But anyone defending a two year tank just to sign Amare /JJ is arguing just to argue. You are delusional if you think that is ok.

If we got LeBron it wouldn't be delusional. And we really had a shot, so it was worth trying.

Getting cap space for lebron is not bad. Getting cap space for Lebron strinking out and maxing out JJ/AMare as your plan b is horrendous and should be a fireable offense.

context. stop with hindsight

[nykballa2k4]

don't see the problem... Walsh was doing fine until the Melo deal. "he" gave up the entire friggen farm.

Yep. Don't know if you were really answering my post or someone else but it's well documented I supported Donnie Walsh until the Melo trade and liked what he did for the team even though he made a few mistakes down the road. And unlike Phil Jackson who was Dolan's choice, Donnie was forced on Dolan who undermined him a few times during his tenure and never gave him enough autonomy to run the team and eecute the plan he wanted. We all remember when Dolan asked Walsh to thank Isiah Thomas for recruiting Amare while he had nothing to do with it and Dolan also tried to rehire Isiah Thomas and force him on Walsh before the league vetoed the move. As I said at the time it was a doomed situation because Dolan never really wanted Walsh and did evrything in his power to push him out without public backlash. After he acquired Melo and Knicks made the playoffs, Dolan knew his hands were no longer tied and he could let Walsh walk and the fans wouldn't care.

With Phil Jackson, it's a different story, he seem to have Dolan's ear and he has enough autonomy to work (even though I wished he fired Steve Mills and hired a competent and experienced GM to help him run the team). I criticized Phil a lot recently but only because he deserved the criticism. And yesterday he acknowledged his mistakes and pretty much confirmed what some of us have been saying for a while. As I said yesterday, I like the fact Phil's accountable and willing to explain himself and I have no problem if he follows Walsh's playbook. Walsh was and is still a smart and experienced executive. His plan was file overall, the execution not so good but as you said, he had to deal with Dolan's interference and Isiah whispering in Dolan's ear.

Phil's a smart guy and I hope he won't let his ego cloud his judgement. He made mistakes and now that he acklowdged them I hope he'll do a better job next summer...

Kos - I think that's right. Donnie was the much more experienced exec but Phil has support of Dolan. More - Dolan is invested in Phil because he made it happen. That gives Phil a chance to operate more autonomously but it will take him awhile - at least a little longer - to get up to speed. For his skill for team building to match his imagination. So, that's the downside.

Regarding Mills - I'm not seeing how everyone expected Phil to fire a guy that was so instrumental in recruiting him. Especially if they do, in fact, get along for the most part. To turn around and fire him would seem a bit backhanded. If Mills is interfering, Phil won't tolerate it for long, imo.

It would be like if a great GM took over the Jets but let Idzik run the bean counting.

[PMFJB]

If we got LeBron it wouldn't be delusional. And we really had a shot, so it was worth trying.

Getting cap space for lebron is not bad. Getting cap space for Lebron strinking out and maxing out JJ/AMare as your plan b is horrendous and should be a fireable offense.

context. stop with hindsight

For the last time this is not hindsight.
http://nypost.com/2014/11/15/brooklyn-s ... y-a-knick/

This is what he wanted. He just couldn't get it done. I see you completely ignored my thread responding to your 5 points. Go back and answer them.

[kosmovitelli]

http://nypost.com/2014/11/15/brooklyn-s ... y-a-knick/
You guys really need to learn to do some research before you talk.

No need for research. I already read that at the time. LOL

As I said, Joe Johnson had a max offer from the Hawks even before free agency officially started and Knicks (MDA and Houston) met with him in LA without Walsh who was already in Cleveland to prepare the meeting with Lebron. Walsh never had any intention to sign him. Joe Johnson and Arn Tellem wanted the money and Walsh knew first from Arn Tellem. So Johnson saying he was close to sign with the Knicks is just him making some fun and PR. He never received an offer from the Knicks. He received a max offer from the Hawks before he even met the Knicks and Walsh wasn't even present. Stupid to say he was close to sign with the Knicks when he never met the man in charge (Donnie Wlash) or the owner (Jimmy Dolan) and he already received his max offer from the Haxks before he even met the Knicks and other teams.

[Zooropa]

It's hindsight because you're saying it was bad knowing that we didn't get LBJ.

[PMFJB]

but if we trade Lee and strike out on Amare/Boozer then we actually get worse and don't even have our unfettered pick to play with....

The whole hind-sight viewing is not helpful. Lee was plan C. That's why he was held onto.

If we trade lee the 2009 pick is that much higher. Instead of freaking Jordan Hill we could be looking at Rubio/Curry/Harden. Maybe even the top pick. But he wanted to do what Phil wanted to do. Stay competitive. Phil just lucked out his competitive turned out to be ****.

But anyone defending a two year tank just to sign Amare /JJ is arguing just to argue. You are delusional if you think that is ok.

Anyone talking about trading David Lee in 2009 is practicing hindsight that no one had. And if we had obtained JJ and Amare we'd have been better 2010-2011. JJ is obviously better than Buike+Turiaf+AR+Felton and was a perfect fit for Mike's system. We would have been a playoff team right away and had young players to develop into supplimental talent. We could have been in a good position to move for Deron when he became available.
Knowing what we do now about all the player involved obviously you can say "wow that would have been terrible" but each of those moves made at the time they were made could have been viewed as a success. It stands to reason that we would have Amare, Kmart, Melo, JJ, Lin in 2011/12 with Fields, JR, Jerome Jordan, Copeland, Novak, Kurt, Sheed as part of that run. Mike n Mike could have arguably made noise in the playoffs.

Giving up two years to be a capped out playoff team with JJ/Amare as your stars is not a good accomplishment. If you want to defend that go ahead.

And now you want to add Deron Williams in tot he mix? My god.

Sometimes "its easier to see you know what I was wrong, let's move on" than to keep digging yourself a hole.

[PMFJB]

http://nypost.com/2014/11/15/brooklyn-s ... y-a-knick/
You guys really need to learn to do some research before you talk.

No need for research. I already read that at the time. LOL

As I said, Joe Johnson had a max offer from the Hawks even before free agency officially started and Knicks (MDA and Houston) met with him in LA without Walsh who was already in Cleveland to prepare the meeting with Lebron. Walsh never had any intention to sign him. Joe Johnson and Arn Tellem wanted the money and Walsh knew first from Arn Tellem. So Johnson saying he was close to sign with the Knicks is just him making some fun and PR. He never received an offer from the Knicks. He received a max offer from the Hawks before he even met the Knicks and Walsh wasn't even present. Stupid to say he was close to sign with the Knicks when he never met the man in charge (Donnie Wlash) or the owner (Jimmy Dolan) and he already received his max offer from the Haxks before he even met the Knicks and other teams.

So if Walsh knew that he was going to resign with the Hawks.
Why meet with him? Why tell him where he would practice? How much the price of living was?
Why did he even give a pitch?
I would love to hear this.

Because then Walsh was wasting his,dolan and pringles time if he knew that JJ was never signing with them.

I love it how you and only you know that JJ is lying in this story 5 years later. And that the details he gave about the meeting are I guess false too? And his rationale about why he didn't want to sign with the Knicks?

You and Ibraheim should be friends.

You both have an opinion about something. The person involved in the situation says otherwise aka you are proven wrong. And your response. "Oh he is just saying that here is what really happened because I and only I know the true story. Not the person involved".

Ok then carry on.