PG Thread: Screw you Leprechauns

[F N 11]

Without the refs calling the BS fouls he's not nearly as effective. He's basically D Rose with better passing.

Is he? Isssss he?
He doesn't pass either

I'm taller than him too

Right I don't think he's a great passer. He's probably better than Rose but the dude likes to score. And he's good at it. He is comparable to Rose, except he's using craftiness more than elite athleticism or layup skills. He has some definite tricks around the hoop, extremely good at it, but it's not as clean or eye popping as Rose. He is sneaky as hell though.

I just don't trust his J, thinks he's shooting over his head (which is not hard to do ), don't think he's a natural PG, and I don't think the very little guys age that well. He's far from old.

But if Ainge gives him the Max, that contract would take him into his older age on huge $. I believe he'd be 28 or 29 to start, so it'd go to 33 or 34. I don't see him being close to this level in those last years, but I guess few PGs can keep it up. Lots of wear & tear on smaller bodies.

Thats the difference. Thomas would use his speed, slow down and get guys to bump him or pass. I like that manipulation part of his game. Thats what makes him so effective. Rose will come at you full speed and you know he's coming at you lol.

[KnicksGod]

Can't stand Isaiah Thomas. Yeah I said it.

Overrated. YEAH I SAID IT.

I agree. But he's having a great year. He's become an elite scorer. But if we were betting on his future, I'd say sell. Not to say he won't be good, but I don't think he's this good.

At that size once your athleticism falls your game really suffers. He is a little different however than most really little guards because his game was less about how fast he is and more about trickery and having you off balanced. He actually is like a mini-Harden with less passing and even worse defense. I think once the calls stop coming his way when his athleticism starts to decline you'll see a steep drop off.

Yep I think so. Athleticism is more easy to judge when it's a guy like Rose, but what Isaiah is doing still requires a young body ... whatever you want to call it. Quickness, a little more hang time (if not dramatic verticals) -- these are things that his young legs are doing now, combined with the skills he's acquired.

I could see him being near 20 PPG for at least what 3 more years. But into his 30's, I don't think he'll be a guy who can carry your offense.

[xNewYorkMadex]

Cut Sasha and sign Hollis Thompson. Didnt know Philly waived him a few weeks ago.

Im not going to pretend I know much about that kid, but hes a career 39% 3pt shooter. Impressive he put up that % considering he played with the 76ers for all those years and its probably correct to assume he wasnt getting open shots consistently. 6'8 and only 25 yrs old, I would definitely take a look at him. Especially with Kuz starting at SF now, we could use some more depth at that position. Maybe he can develop into a better defender.

[KnicksGod]

Sounds funny but I think jumping ability is judged in the NBA too much on how high off the ground you get. Thomas is not getting that high. But he's probably jumping longer distances horizontally. Like a long jumper. And that will also diminish as he gets older. He uses that little bit of extra horizontal jump to spin the ball in. As long as you're airborne, it's hangtime. But just not the kind we all gape at with a younger D-Rose.

Age creeps at you in littler ways. And for a little body, I don't buy it. That he'll be as good at 32. The bigger guys both suffer less damage but also can find compensation in other ways to make up for it -- like simply shooting over you or getting stronger upper body.

Strength won't help Thomas that much, and he's not shooting over you ever. So I don't really see it.

Gun to my head, I bet Ainge doesn't Max him out.

P.S. I'm not a physicist so I don't really understand the relationship between vertical and horizontal jumping, but it just looks like he is getting longer and lower jumps. I think that, with great control of the ball in the air, is the secret of Isaiah's success. The J goes in but I don't think it's close to a great shot -- he "slops in" a lot of jumpers. He's very hot now. I don't think his J is pure enough to sustain him like a Nash.

[Greenie]

I think it's easier to do when you are allowed to do it. Melo has to be willing to sacrifice in order for other guys to be able to stay aggressive. That's what he did last night, he sacrificed the ball. When Baker gave him the ball and he gave it right back to him and directed him to go attack the basket I was shocked. Then Kuz gave him the ball and he gave it back to him and told him to attack I was shocked again. The ball didn't stick in his hands and that has to happen for other guys to stay motivated, to gain confidence, to stay alert and aggressive. It's when he demands the ball and looks to take over that is when guys just stand around and watch him. He's the alpha and guys recognize it and respect him for that so they defer to him a lot but it's his job to instill confidence in them and tell them no you go make a play I believe in you.

I think this is a bit of a myth. A bit.
Certain players have NEVER had a problem getting looks and shots up while on the same team with Melo.



Rose gets his shots no problem.

KP get his shots no problem. He actually should shoot more.

JR got his shots no problem.

Felton got his shots no problem.

NeNe got his shots no problem.

Hell, Lance has no issues getting his shots.




The problem is we seem to have rosters with guys who don't have a mindset to score. They are role players that defer here and on any other team they play for.

The issue lies in the fact that we don't collect multiple scorers that can create for themselves. Most of our guys need to be set up, but we have lacked PG play since Kidd left.

The dudes that will throw up shots on other teams still do so when paired with Melo. He doesn't stop guys from "eating". He's just doesn't have a bunch of guys who want to shoot.

Look at the games he is out. The same dudes that don't shoot don't magically start shooting. It's the other guys that put up even MORE shots.

You have to have a certain mentality to be a scorer. We have at most 2 on a single roster. This year we have more. We have seen Melo fall back a bit.

The issue is that Horn plays games with rotations like he dumb:

Willy will shoot if you give him the ball...benched!

Kuz will shoot if you give him the ball...benched!

We really do have 6-7 guys that can go get a bucket but Horn is not utilizing them.

I agree about Hornacek, he has looked clueless with some of his rotations. Some of those player combinations that he uses are just mind boggling. He did a much better job last night though but we will see how that plays out the rest of the way. My problem with Carmelo is he doesn't pass the ball to look to get other guys going. Most of the time when he does pass the ball, it is only so he can get to his spot and position himself to call for the ball to get swung his way again. He constantly demands the ball especially on the block. Last night was the perfect example of how he should play, face up to the basket behind the 3 point line and unless he has a good look for the shot he needs to get the ball out of his hands quickly just like he was doing last night. This keeps the ball moving, keeps guys looking at other options and forces guys to create plays, even if those guys don't have a scorers mentality, they are still capable scorers as we saw last night. The defense needs to be forced to shift around and all year we have done a poor job of doing that mainly due to Carmelo Anthony iso plays. We constantly keep forcing him the ball in the pinch post and it stagnates the entire offense. He needs to stop demanding the ball there and move back behind the 3 point line and allow the ball to move and the motion of the offense to have flow.

Sir. Post plays are actually needed to help slow the game down when need be. Carmelo is easily our best post player.
Horn is going to call iso regardless of who is on the team. Kuz and Willy had a few last night. You can't ask Melo to stop being Melo. That neuters him. What you can do is cut down shot attempts and have more spot ups for him.

Come playoff time if we get there you need some post play.

The key in those pinch post plays is to have others cut and not just watch. Ball movement isn't just about the ball. Melo made a nice pass to Kuz for an and-1 on a cut off of a pinch post iso.

[PeteW]

Brown was taken with the 3rd.
That's higher than KP.

He was taken third in an notoriously weak draft, this upcoming draft is absolutely stacked. Doesn't compare.

All drafts can be compared. Brandon Ingram is looking suspect too. He was supposed to be a sure hit. He's not. This is the NBA, not college or a foreign league. Not all players will adjust to the game NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE PICKED. Fans need to stop the nonsense with drafts being sure things.

You're completely missing the point, no one said drafts are a sure thing. But historically if you put yourself in a position to draft higher you have a better mathematical chance at a franchise changing player. All you have to do is historically look at the top 5 draft picks, compare that to top 10, compare that to the top 15, and so on. Are there obvious levels of tiers? Of course. Is it ever a sure thing? Of course not. No one said it was.

[Greenie]

I get the Celtic hate but Thomas is a baller. finishes over defenders who are taller than him at a high clip. Stop it. He's good!

Who said he wasn't?

[HEZI]

Without the refs calling the BS fouls he's not nearly as effective. He's basically D Rose with better passing.

He's actually a really good shooter and can knock down the 3, unlike Rose. I do hate how he is officiated though, it's made me basically hate the guy. The refs give him so many sympathy calls just because he's a little guy, but most of the time he is the one initiating the contact and committing offensive fouls. Defensively, the refs allow him to hack and grab and get away with all types of nonsense but when he has the ball you can't even breathe on him otherwise they are blowing a whistle. He's fearless, super competitive and smart and talented but yet gets a lot of beneficial calls due to his size. It's a shame

His shooting numbers are high but I don't completely buy it. He's not a pure shooter, but he is peaking now. I don't think his J will hold up to the test of time though.

I see him as a red hot volume scorer right now. I think he will cool off. Not just Boston-hating talking here -- I just don't think he has the natural ability to play at a superstar level for multiple years. That's the way he is playing now though. Through the roof.

He's always been a good shooter though, ever since he came into the league. He is certainly shooting more now this season than he ever has before but he's always had the ability to shoot.

[KnicksGod]

He's actually a really good shooter and can knock down the 3, unlike Rose. I do hate how he is officiated though, it's made me basically hate the guy. The refs give him so many sympathy calls just because he's a little guy, but most of the time he is the one initiating the contact and committing offensive fouls. Defensively, the refs allow him to hack and grab and get away with all types of nonsense but when he has the ball you can't even breathe on him otherwise they are blowing a whistle. He's fearless, super competitive and smart and talented but yet gets a lot of beneficial calls due to his size. It's a shame

His shooting numbers are high but I don't completely buy it. He's not a pure shooter, but he is peaking now. I don't think his J will hold up to the test of time though.

I see him as a red hot volume scorer right now. I think he will cool off. Not just Boston-hating talking here -- I just don't think he has the natural ability to play at a superstar level for multiple years. That's the way he is playing now though. Through the roof.

He's always been a good shooter though, ever since he came into the league. He is certainly shooting more now this season than he ever has before but he's always had the ability to shoot.

Career .365 from 3 which is good but not great. He's at 46% from the field this year but 3 previous seasons were below 43%.

[HEZI]

I think this is a bit of a myth. A bit.
Certain players have NEVER had a problem getting looks and shots up while on the same team with Melo.



Rose gets his shots no problem.

KP get his shots no problem. He actually should shoot more.

JR got his shots no problem.

Felton got his shots no problem.

NeNe got his shots no problem.

Hell, Lance has no issues getting his shots.




The problem is we seem to have rosters with guys who don't have a mindset to score. They are role players that defer here and on any other team they play for.

The issue lies in the fact that we don't collect multiple scorers that can create for themselves. Most of our guys need to be set up, but we have lacked PG play since Kidd left.

The dudes that will throw up shots on other teams still do so when paired with Melo. He doesn't stop guys from "eating". He's just doesn't have a bunch of guys who want to shoot.

Look at the games he is out. The same dudes that don't shoot don't magically start shooting. It's the other guys that put up even MORE shots.

You have to have a certain mentality to be a scorer. We have at most 2 on a single roster. This year we have more. We have seen Melo fall back a bit.

The issue is that Horn plays games with rotations like he dumb:

Willy will shoot if you give him the ball...benched!

Kuz will shoot if you give him the ball...benched!

We really do have 6-7 guys that can go get a bucket but Horn is not utilizing them.

I agree about Hornacek, he has looked clueless with some of his rotations. Some of those player combinations that he uses are just mind boggling. He did a much better job last night though but we will see how that plays out the rest of the way. My problem with Carmelo is he doesn't pass the ball to look to get other guys going. Most of the time when he does pass the ball, it is only so he can get to his spot and position himself to call for the ball to get swung his way again. He constantly demands the ball especially on the block. Last night was the perfect example of how he should play, face up to the basket behind the 3 point line and unless he has a good look for the shot he needs to get the ball out of his hands quickly just like he was doing last night. This keeps the ball moving, keeps guys looking at other options and forces guys to create plays, even if those guys don't have a scorers mentality, they are still capable scorers as we saw last night. The defense needs to be forced to shift around and all year we have done a poor job of doing that mainly due to Carmelo Anthony iso plays. We constantly keep forcing him the ball in the pinch post and it stagnates the entire offense. He needs to stop demanding the ball there and move back behind the 3 point line and allow the ball to move and the motion of the offense to have flow.

Sir. Post plays are actually needed to help slow the game down when need be. Carmelo is easily our best post player.
Horn is going to call iso regardless of who is on the team. Kuz and Willy had a few last night. You can't ask Melo to stop being Melo. That neuters him. What you can do is cut down shot attempts and have more spot ups for him.

Come playoff time if we get there you need some post play.

The key in those pinch post plays is to have others cut and not just watch. Ball movement isn't just about the ball. Melo made a nice pass to Kuz for an and-1 on a cut off of a pinch post iso.

I highlighted the key part of your first sentence, when need be. Yes when need be. Problem is, we go to it from opening tip. We slow the game down from the moment the game starts and that is not how you get guys in the flow of the game. Sure, when playoff times comes and teams clamp down defensively and teams start taking away our options, yes you need a go to scorer that can get you points and create something out of nothing, I've always given Melo value for his ability to do that. But you don't start the game off that way, you use it as an option when need be, like you said.

[HEZI]

His shooting numbers are high but I don't completely buy it. He's not a pure shooter, but he is peaking now. I don't think his J will hold up to the test of time though.

I see him as a red hot volume scorer right now. I think he will cool off. Not just Boston-hating talking here -- I just don't think he has the natural ability to play at a superstar level for multiple years. That's the way he is playing now though. Through the roof.

He's always been a good shooter though, ever since he came into the league. He is certainly shooting more now this season than he ever has before but he's always had the ability to shoot.

Career .365 from 3 which is good but not great. He's at 46% from the field this year but 3 previous seasons were below 43%.

Never said he was great but all I'm saying is he's been a good shooter. Career .365 on 5 attempts a game from behind the 3 point line is pretty good. Considering Ray Allen has a career average of .400 on 5.7 attempts a game and that's Ray Allen.

I agree, I think he is playing out of his mind right now and I don't see him putting up 28 points a game for the remainder of his career, he's not that elite. But I do see him sustaining good numbers though, he's got the talent.

[nykballa2k4]

How about we take your experiment and make things equal.

We clone the spurs FO, put them on both teams and then start picking from the magic and spurs positions. Oh and surround both sets of picks with Tim Duncan and manu and all of the other old men clones.

Two equal teams and FO decision makers but picking from different points in the draft.

Now "who do you got?"

So you admit then that it's more about who's making the picks than where you pick?
Exactly. I agree 100% with you.

Nope, you actually missed the point... again.

Your point is "all things being equal." My counter point is that things are inherently not equal so it the priority is making sure your talent scouts are the best in the business. Knicks primary asset is their owner who can write giant checks. There are NO GM's out there that can make the Nets a winner in 3 years with their lack of picks. The work of great GM's is usually felt long after they depart (when the talent they select finally comes to fruition). Yes, there are advantages to picking first over picking second. If your draft board is KAT, KP, Russ, Jah then every pick you don't have leaves your selection that much more open to chance.

What I feel, k r i s, that you miss the value of what some winning can do for team development. If we can get our front court some winning experience, perhaps a guard will want to come here. Players want to win, the only way that a major FA (that we would want) would pick NY is if that player thinks NYK can not only pay him, but also help him make his name as a winner. Right now we have Melo who is loyal to his wallet and NY as well as Rose who is loyal to his bank account above all else. It is not a crime to be looking out for your pay day. Elton Brand (one of my favorite players) probably deserves a spot in the "money grabber HOF" due to his efforts in picking teams like the Sixers and Hawks when he could have been a major player on a team like the Spurs helping a team win a ring.

[Reign23]

tbh, melos 5-14 had little to do with crowder imo. He had a lot of open 3s that went in-and-out. shots weren't falling, but those were good ones.

some guys seem to NEED to trash Melo. He didn't have a good game but, he wasn't detrimental and had some very good assists.

he basically stayed on the perimeter and let rose operate and only took the shots he pretty much had to.

yeah really liked our O against boston

[Greenie]

I agree about Hornacek, he has looked clueless with some of his rotations. Some of those player combinations that he uses are just mind boggling. He did a much better job last night though but we will see how that plays out the rest of the way. My problem with Carmelo is he doesn't pass the ball to look to get other guys going. Most of the time when he does pass the ball, it is only so he can get to his spot and position himself to call for the ball to get swung his way again. He constantly demands the ball especially on the block. Last night was the perfect example of how he should play, face up to the basket behind the 3 point line and unless he has a good look for the shot he needs to get the ball out of his hands quickly just like he was doing last night. This keeps the ball moving, keeps guys looking at other options and forces guys to create plays, even if those guys don't have a scorers mentality, they are still capable scorers as we saw last night. The defense needs to be forced to shift around and all year we have done a poor job of doing that mainly due to Carmelo Anthony iso plays. We constantly keep forcing him the ball in the pinch post and it stagnates the entire offense. He needs to stop demanding the ball there and move back behind the 3 point line and allow the ball to move and the motion of the offense to have flow.

Sir. Post plays are actually needed to help slow the game down when need be. Carmelo is easily our best post player.
Horn is going to call iso regardless of who is on the team. Kuz and Willy had a few last night. You can't ask Melo to stop being Melo. That neuters him. What you can do is cut down shot attempts and have more spot ups for him.

Come playoff time if we get there you need some post play.

The key in those pinch post plays is to have others cut and not just watch. Ball movement isn't just about the ball. Melo made a nice pass to Kuz for an and-1 on a cut off of a pinch post iso.

I highlighted the key part of your first sentence, when need be. Yes when need be. Problem is, we go to it from opening tip. We slow the game down from the moment the game starts and that is not how you get guys in the flow of the game. Sure, when playoff times comes and teams clamp down defensively and teams start taking away our options, yes you need a go to scorer that can get you points and create something out of nothing, I've always given Melo value for his ability to do that. But you don't start the game off that way, you use it as an option when need be, like you said.

Depends. If you're trying to slow down the other team it can be a weapon.

Horn does call way too much iso plays though. Kuz was running some in the first.

[TruthBeTold]

I joined team TANK the last time the Knicks lost to Boston. Yesterday's win hasn't change that. I know the TRUTH about this Knicks team. Unfortunately, the Knicks have middle of the pack talent, so the tank will be destroyed once KP comes back and if Melo remains a Knick. The Knicks really have playoff talent, but they play stupidly/not enough ball movement and defense. The head coach is also an idiot, who MIGHT be getting smart at the wrong time...lol. Middle of the pack teams are usually rewarded with a decent to good player for their bench.

I want Noah back... starting, to soak up major minutes as usual. He deserve at least 30 minutes a game. Hey, the guy is a rebounding machine and he keeps the bench players on the bench where they belong. KP needs to be shut down for the rest of the season. No need to rush him back, because of possible recurring injuries in the future. Let Melo get his shots and play the way he wants. Jeff needs to relax, so the Knick can get back to their early winning ways. Also, I want to see more Ron Banker and less Rose, because Baker is the future of the Knicks at PG. Keep him in the starting lineup and give more minutes to Jennings. And where the hell is my man Lance Thomas at? He should be starting. These Euro players are ruing everything.

[Fat Kat]

I joined team TANK the last time the Knicks lost to Boston. Yesterday's win hasn't change that. I know the TRUTH about this Knicks team. Unfortunately, the Knicks have middle of the pack talent, so the tank will be destroyed once KP comes back and if Melo remains a Knick. The Knicks really have playoff talent, but they play stupidly/not enough ball movement and defense. The head coach is also an idiot, who MIGHT be getting smart at the wrong time...lol. Middle of the pack teams are usually rewarded with a decent to good player for their bench.

I want Noah back... starting, to soak up major minutes as usual. He deserve at least 30 minutes a game. Hey, the guy is a rebounding machine and he keeps the bench players on the bench where they belong. KP needs to be shut down for the rest of the season. No need to rush him back, because of possible recurring injuries in the future. Let Melo get his shots and play the way he wants. Jeff needs to relax, so the Knick can get back to their early winning ways. Also, I want to see more Ron Banker and less Rose, because Baker is the future of the Knicks at PG. Keep him in the starting lineup and give more minutes to Jennings. And where the hell is my man Lance Thomas at? He should be starting. These Euro players are ruing everything.

Cool story bro

[reub]

I joined team TANK the last time the Knicks lost to Boston. Yesterday's win hasn't change that. I know the TRUTH about this Knicks team. Unfortunately, the Knicks have middle of the pack talent, so the tank will be destroyed once KP comes back and if Melo remains a Knick. The Knicks really have playoff talent, but they play stupidly/not enough ball movement and defense. The head coach is also an idiot, who MIGHT be getting smart at the wrong time...lol. Middle of the pack teams are usually rewarded with a decent to good player for their bench.

I want Noah back... starting, to soak up major minutes as usual. He deserve at least 30 minutes a game. Hey, the guy is a rebounding machine and he keeps the bench players on the bench where they belong. KP needs to be shut down for the rest of the season. No need to rush him back, because of possible recurring injuries in the future. Let Melo get his shots and play the way he wants. Jeff needs to relax, so the Knick can get back to their early winning ways. Also, I want to see more Ron Banker and less Rose, because Baker is the future of the Knicks at PG. Keep him in the starting lineup and give more minutes to Jennings. And where the hell is my man Lance Thomas at? He should be starting. These Euro players are ruing everything.

We're five and oh when Noah doesn't play.

[N Y K]

So you admit then that it's more about who's making the picks than where you pick?
Exactly. I agree 100% with you.

Nope, you actually missed the point... again.

Your point is "all things being equal." My counter point is that things are inherently not equal so it the priority is making sure your talent scouts are the best in the business. Knicks primary asset is their owner who can write giant checks. There are NO GM's out there that can make the Nets a winner in 3 years with their lack of picks. The work of great GM's is usually felt long after they depart (when the talent they select finally comes to fruition). Yes, there are advantages to picking first over picking second. If your draft board is KAT, KP, Russ, Jah then every pick you don't have leaves your selection that much more open to chance.

What I feel, k r i s, that you miss the value of what some winning can do for team development. If we can get our front court some winning experience, perhaps a guard will want to come here. Players want to win, the only way that a major FA (that we would want) would pick NY is if that player thinks NYK can not only pay him, but also help him make his name as a winner. Right now we have Melo who is loyal to his wallet and NY as well as Rose who is loyal to his bank account above all else. It is not a crime to be looking out for your pay day. Elton Brand (one of my favorite players) probably deserves a spot in the "money grabber HOF" due to his efforts in picking teams like the Sixers and Hawks when he could have been a major player on a team like the Spurs helping a team win a ring.

Actually my point is you can sub any team in for the Spurs in my example, and the answer will always be, you'd prefer to draft from a better position. More options>>>>>>less options is simply undeniable.

My view is there are a lot of important factors that go into a successful draft... the draft spot, the ability to spot talent (scouting), player development, and LUCK. So while you somehow surmised that I don't understand the value winning has on a team, you seem to forget that this is 2017, the knicks are not good, and we are not going to be wooing any free agents looking "to win" with the season we are having. So why wouldn't I be pleasantly surprised that this team is organically losing without any "tank" tactics?

And while you say "focus on scouting", I say, do that, and work on player development, think about the long term success of your team and be smart enough to know that jockeying for a draft position when it's not working is, at times, a strategy worth pursuing.

[nykballa2k4]

Nope, you actually missed the point... again.

Your point is "all things being equal." My counter point is that things are inherently not equal so it the priority is making sure your talent scouts are the best in the business. Knicks primary asset is their owner who can write giant checks. There are NO GM's out there that can make the Nets a winner in 3 years with their lack of picks. The work of great GM's is usually felt long after they depart (when the talent they select finally comes to fruition). Yes, there are advantages to picking first over picking second. If your draft board is KAT, KP, Russ, Jah then every pick you don't have leaves your selection that much more open to chance.

What I feel, k r i s, that you miss the value of what some winning can do for team development. If we can get our front court some winning experience, perhaps a guard will want to come here. Players want to win, the only way that a major FA (that we would want) would pick NY is if that player thinks NYK can not only pay him, but also help him make his name as a winner. Right now we have Melo who is loyal to his wallet and NY as well as Rose who is loyal to his bank account above all else. It is not a crime to be looking out for your pay day. Elton Brand (one of my favorite players) probably deserves a spot in the "money grabber HOF" due to his efforts in picking teams like the Sixers and Hawks when he could have been a major player on a team like the Spurs helping a team win a ring.

Actually my point is you can sub any team in for the Spurs in my example, and the answer will always be, you'd prefer to draft from a better position. More options>>>>>>less options is simply undeniable.

My view is there are a lot of important factors that go into a successful draft... the draft spot, the ability to spot talent (scouting), player development, and LUCK. So while you some how surmised that I don't understand the value winning has on a team, you seem to forget that this is 2017, the knicks are not good, and we are not going to be wooing any free agents looking "to win" with the season we are having. So why wouldn't I be pleasantly surprised that this team is organically losing without any "tank" tactics?

And while you say "focus on scouting", I say, do that, and work on player development team, and think about the long term success of your team and be smart enough to know that jockeying for a draft position when it's not working is, at times, a strategy worth pursuing.

Your point was to diminish other variables, my point is that many exist. You have added here that you feel that this team, which was just put together over the summer, needs to be dismantled (again). We disagree on the roster. I believe Phil has put good personnel on the team and provided a good coach. The issue is that when talent which does not inherently fit together is placed together quickly, it can lead to trouble.

Using the Celtics as an example of a super team -- they had ultimately two unselfish star-level players (Allen, KG) join with a somewhat ball-stopper (Pierce), quarterbacked by a pass-first rookie (Rondo). The trick will be to play Rose more as a 2 guard which we actually have been seeing more of. We may be playing Baker at SG for ceremonial purposes, but playing a passing guard with our shooting guard helps us to spread the offense and mitigate our stagnation. Derrick Rose can be our Marbury if Baker (or Lee) can be our Penny.

If we make the playoffs, and make a nice run to the ECF (which would be a huge success) and Rose is our catalyst, we are probably worse for the wear... should we make the 2nd round thanks to Melo and KP playing well together and solid effort and defense all around, we can use our cap flexibility to take another big step IMO.

[N Y K]

Your point is "all things being equal." My counter point is that things are inherently not equal so it the priority is making sure your talent scouts are the best in the business. Knicks primary asset is their owner who can write giant checks. There are NO GM's out there that can make the Nets a winner in 3 years with their lack of picks. The work of great GM's is usually felt long after they depart (when the talent they select finally comes to fruition). Yes, there are advantages to picking first over picking second. If your draft board is KAT, KP, Russ, Jah then every pick you don't have leaves your selection that much more open to chance.

What I feel, k r i s, that you miss the value of what some winning can do for team development. If we can get our front court some winning experience, perhaps a guard will want to come here. Players want to win, the only way that a major FA (that we would want) would pick NY is if that player thinks NYK can not only pay him, but also help him make his name as a winner. Right now we have Melo who is loyal to his wallet and NY as well as Rose who is loyal to his bank account above all else. It is not a crime to be looking out for your pay day. Elton Brand (one of my favorite players) probably deserves a spot in the "money grabber HOF" due to his efforts in picking teams like the Sixers and Hawks when he could have been a major player on a team like the Spurs helping a team win a ring.

Actually my point is you can sub any team in for the Spurs in my example, and the answer will always be, you'd prefer to draft from a better position. More options>>>>>>less options is simply undeniable.

My view is there are a lot of important factors that go into a successful draft... the draft spot, the ability to spot talent (scouting), player development, and LUCK. So while you some how surmised that I don't understand the value winning has on a team, you seem to forget that this is 2017, the knicks are not good, and we are not going to be wooing any free agents looking "to win" with the season we are having. So why wouldn't I be pleasantly surprised that this team is organically losing without any "tank" tactics?

And while you say "focus on scouting", I say, do that, and work on player development team, and think about the long term success of your team and be smart enough to know that jockeying for a draft position when it's not working is, at times, a strategy worth pursuing.

Your point was to diminish other variables, my point is that many exist. You have added here that you feel that this team, which was just put together over the summer, needs to be dismantled (again). We disagree on the roster. I believe Phil has put good personnel on the team and provided a good coach. The issue is that when talent which does not inherently fit together is placed together quickly, it can lead to trouble.

Using the Celtics as an example of a super team -- they had ultimately two unselfish star-level players (Allen, KG) join with a somewhat ball-stopper (Pierce), quarterbacked by a pass-first rookie (Rondo). The trick will be to play Rose more as a 2 guard which we actually have been seeing more of. We may be playing Baker at SG for ceremonial purposes, but playing a passing guard with our shooting guard helps us to spread the offense and mitigate our stagnation. Derrick Rose can be our Marbury if Baker (or Lee) can be our Penny.

If we make the playoffs, and make a nice run to the ECF (which would be a huge success) and Rose is our catalyst, we are probably worse for the wear... should we make the 2nd round thanks to Melo and KP playing well together and solid effort and defense all around, we can use our cap flexibility to take another big step IMO.

what the? did you read what i wrote?

thanks for the talk. my point of view is clearly stated.