PG Thread: KP Nails Rose w/ Sweet Chin Music

[Dkillanyk4lyf]

Man phil should just fire jeff and promote Rambis this offseason. Hes the only coach that will be in sync with phils philosophy.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Yeah lets just give Phil zero credit for anything he does positive, but **** on him for anything unlucky or negative he does.

Is he gonna fall 'half ass backwards' into good picks again this year too?

so far Phil hasn't shown that he knows what he's doing. If he has a good draft, and stops getting r***ed in trades, then he might be turning a corner.

The Rose trade was genius. He just **** up by using the space on Noah.

People seem to not be able to separate those two things for some reason.

If we had just been able to acquire Rose and not sign Noah to that stupid deal, we would've been doing an AMAZING salary dump while also getting back some decent pieces in Holiday and a 2nd round pick and an expiring Rose for players on longer contracts in Lopez and Calderon.

So I think if Phil had just done part 1, without doing part 2, that trade above is really smart.

Jose was expiring, Lopez had a great contract, probably worth a first round pick. It really wasn't much of a salary dump

[Knicks_Fan2]

At best the Rose deal was maaaybe a net positive but it certainly wasn't "genius".

[Amsterdam]

We had ~ 30 million in cap last year
This year we'll have ~ 25 million
Such a big difference, wow
You can say the Noah contract is terrible (cause it is), but you are heavily overexaggerating how much it will affect us this year
Say we trade Lee for a late 1st, that'd get us to ~ 36 million in free cap which is significantly more than we had going into last summer
We are by no means "locked in" (see, POR), we're just not in a position where signing a top FA is feasible, which is fine given how we should be developing a youth movement
And to your example about Curry, he was a 13 mil contract in a 58 mil cap, or ~22% of our space
Noah is a 17 mil contract in a 102 mil cap (next year's projected numbers), or ~17% of our space, so much less damaging
So yes, his contract is dead weight, but our cap situation is not as bad as you say

Your justification of the moves made is ignoring my underlying points.

Compare 25 to 65-70 (the amount we could of had) like I am. Not 30 to 25.

Dead weight of 17% or 22% is still dead weight taking a significant portion of our cap.

And how come you are keep ignoring that by rolling it over you make player development (primarily KP & WHG) a priority and better set yourself up for a top 5 pick?

You're going to make excuses for this regime. I'm done making excuses for terrible management.

More playing time =/= better development
Look at Willy, he got no time to start the year, but developed behind the scenes enough that he's good enough to start for us
KP has far exceeded my expectations this year
I ain't justifying sh*t. The Noah contract is rancid, how many times you want me to say it? We have one bad contract, boo hoo.
And what are you gonna spend that 70 million on anyways? It's inconsequential how much money we use now, because by the time we need it Noah's gonna be off the books anyways so we'll have it by then
You're ignoring the point that we are currently 20th in committed salary for next year, meaning we have well more cap space than average
You don't think that having 6 rookies and one sophomore (half the team) is an indication of what direction we're going?
Cause we could've just as easily have signed a bunch of vets instead of UDFA's
Outside of Melo, Lee, and Noah, nobody on this team is over 30
And like I keep mentioning, people are too obsessed over what number the pick is instead of who's in front of us. We're currently 7th, with Bos, LA, Pho, Philly, Orlando, and Sac in front of us
Out of those 7, the only teams with records for making smart decisions are Boston and LA (who passed on KP for Russell, but that was different management, I have no idea what Magic would've done)
So we are guaranteed one of
Fultz
Jackson
Ball
DSJ
Tatum
Frank
Fox
(which is my big board for the Knicks), any one of which could end up being the best player from this class, and would be a good complement to KP
So to recap, when Phil came on we had: No cap space, no assets, and no draft picks
Now we have cap space, decent assets, and all of our firsts
Along with actual young talent in KP and Willy
The Knicks are in a better spot now than they were 3 years ago. It's not perfect, and with hindsight could've been a lot better, but it is by no means "terrible management"

[Im Coming Home]

so far Phil hasn't shown that he knows what he's doing. If he has a good draft, and stops getting r***ed in trades, then he might be turning a corner.

The Rose trade was genius. He just **** up by using the space on Noah.

People seem to not be able to separate those two things for some reason.

If we had just been able to acquire Rose and not sign Noah to that stupid deal, we would've been doing an AMAZING salary dump while also getting back some decent pieces in Holiday and a 2nd round pick and an expiring Rose for players on longer contracts in Lopez and Calderon.

So I think if Phil had just done part 1, without doing part 2, that trade above is really smart.

Jose was expiring, Lopez had a great contract, probably worth a first round pick. It really wasn't much of a salary dump

Jose had 2 years left(including this year) iirc. Had we just waited it out, we would've had a ton of cap space this year, and a top pick as well.

I liked the deal a lot until we used that money to sign Noah.

[NY2TheBay]

not true, and we aren't making up 4 games with 14 to play in the loss column. That isn't happening.

4th spot is absolutely where we top out, and that will be very difficult.

The truth is to have a real chance statistically speaking at landing one of these guys they need to be with one of the worst three records. Now, is there a miracle chanve that they leapfrog from 7, sure. Highly unlikely.

Lose out, that's all that can be done. 4 games can be made up with 14 to play. Playoff teams rest players at the end of the year giving lesser talented teams a higher probability to win.

That applies to our opponents as well

Sure it does. That wasnt to imply that we are excluded from this.

Que Sera Sera, its a movement.

Give yourself the best odds thats all that can be controlled.

[NY2TheBay]

not true, and we aren't making up 4 games with 14 to play in the loss column. That isn't happening.

4th spot is absolutely where we top out, and that will be very difficult.

The truth is to have a real chance statistically speaking at landing one of these guys they need to be with one of the worst three records. Now, is there a miracle chanve that they leapfrog from 7, sure. Highly unlikely.

Lose out, that's all that can be done. 4 games can be made up with 14 to play. Playoff teams rest players at the end of the year giving lesser talented teams a higher probability to win.

I think there was a stat that 11 out of the last 16 lottery's a team in the 5th or 6th spot get into the top 3.

While other lotteries have no baring on our lottery it shows the best odds always don't get top 3 picks. I think we should shoot for 4th spot but we can settle someone in the 5th or 6th I would be satisfied with that.

Top 3 right now is just really hard we probably have a couple wins in front of us so that means the suns would have to win 6 more games down the stretch that would be playing well above there winning %

I am more than fine with landing at 4 that gives you a shot at the top 3. My original statement was top 3, your hope is 4. We arent too far off I would say.

[mpharris36]

I am more than fine with landing at 4 that gives you a shot at the top 3. My original statement was top 3, your hope is 4. We arent too far off I would say.

2 games is a huge amount of games between the 3rd and 4th spot.

With only 14 or so games to play that is a a massive amount of games to make up when everyone is losing at a high rate.

[boomann21]

Lmao how old is this dude? He look like somebody Uncle.

[NY2TheBay]

I am more than fine with landing at 4 that gives you a shot at the top 3. My original statement was top 3, your hope is 4. We arent too far off I would say.

2 games is a huge amount of games between the 3rd and 4th spot.

With only 14 or so games to play that is a a massive amount of games to make up when everyone is losing at a high rate.

Anyone can win and lose on any given night, teams that are expected to win can lose due to many circumstances down the stretch of an NBA seaosn, one of which I stated and that is resting players. Players on these losing teams play for pride not for the lottery. If you think these players are going out to hopefully lose you are sorely mistaken. These players are trying to make a statement in front of the coaches and FO for next year etc.

I said top 3 to get the elite players in this draft to give us the best probability. I am cool with 4. If we land at 4 I will grant you infinite and-1's and realgm bus tours.

Que Sera Sera.

[dreamer3kx]

What a awful season for this team, wow, this team shouldve been a playoff team, too much talent, this is on Jeff.

[thebuzzardman]

Man phil should just fire jeff and promote Rambis this offseason. Hes the only coach that will be in sync with phils philosophy.

It would guarantee another tank year and another good pick

Rambis: Tank Commander for Donic!

[Dantares]

What a awful season for this team, wow, this team shouldve been a playoff team, too much talent, this is on Jeff.

I can't believe we are probably going to win less games than that awful squad we had last year.

[dakomish23]

We had ~ 30 million in cap last year
This year we'll have ~ 25 million
Such a big difference, wow
You can say the Noah contract is terrible (cause it is), but you are heavily overexaggerating how much it will affect us this year
Say we trade Lee for a late 1st, that'd get us to ~ 36 million in free cap which is significantly more than we had going into last summer
We are by no means "locked in" (see, POR), we're just not in a position where signing a top FA is feasible, which is fine given how we should be developing a youth movement
And to your example about Curry, he was a 13 mil contract in a 58 mil cap, or ~22% of our space
Noah is a 17 mil contract in a 102 mil cap (next year's projected numbers), or ~17% of our space, so much less damaging
So yes, his contract is dead weight, but our cap situation is not as bad as you say

Your justification of the moves made is ignoring my underlying points.

Compare 25 to 65-70 (the amount we could of had) like I am. Not 30 to 25.

Dead weight of 17% or 22% is still dead weight taking a significant portion of our cap.

And how come you are keep ignoring that by rolling it over you make player development (primarily KP & WHG) a priority and better set yourself up for a top 5 pick?

You're going to make excuses for this regime. I'm done making excuses for terrible management.

More playing time =/= better development
Look at Willy, he got no time to start the year, but developed behind the scenes enough that he's good enough to start for us
KP has far exceeded my expectations this year
I ain't justifying sh*t. The Noah contract is rancid, how many times you want me to say it? We have one bad contract, boo hoo.
And what are you gonna spend that 70 million on anyways? It's inconsequential how much money we use now, because by the time we need it Noah's gonna be off the books anyways so we'll have it by then
You're ignoring the point that we are currently 20th in committed salary for next year, meaning we have well more cap space than average
You don't think that having 6 rookies and one sophomore (half the team) is an indication of what direction we're going?
Cause we could've just as easily have signed a bunch of vets instead of UDFA's
Outside of Melo, Lee, and Noah, nobody on this team is over 30
And like I keep mentioning, people are too obsessed over what number the pick is instead of who's in front of us. We're currently 7th, with Bos, LA, Pho, Philly, Orlando, and Sac in front of us
Out of those 7, the only teams with records for making smart decisions are Boston and LA (who passed on KP for Russell, but that was different management, I have no idea what Magic would've done)
So we are guaranteed one of
Fultz
Jackson
Ball
DSJ
Tatum
Frank
Fox
(which is my big board for the Knicks), any one of which could end up being the best player from this class, and would be a good complement to KP
So to recap, when Phil came on we had: No cap space, no assets, and no draft picks
Now we have cap space, decent assets, and all of our firsts
Along with actual young talent in KP and Willy
The Knicks are in a better spot now than they were 3 years ago. It's not perfect, and with hindsight could've been a lot better, but it is by no means "terrible management"

Just answer two questions

1. Is more opportunity (PT, plays called for you, FGA, etc) a good thing for player development or a bad thing
2. Is having more of a resource (cap space, draft picks, etc) a good thing or a bad thing?

If you're honest, you'll say more is a good thing for both. We did not make having more of these things a priority going into this year and that's what I call terrible management.

You don't. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. But my bar is set above the usual crap standard that we've dealt with as a franchise for 15 years. Terrible job this past offseason. If they're smart they'll have learned their lesson. If they have and make smart decisions, I'll be the first to applaud it.

[Yankeeknickfan]

Your justification of the moves made is ignoring my underlying points.

Compare 25 to 65-70 (the amount we could of had) like I am. Not 30 to 25.

Dead weight of 17% or 22% is still dead weight taking a significant portion of our cap.

And how come you are keep ignoring that by rolling it over you make player development (primarily KP & WHG) a priority and better set yourself up for a top 5 pick?

You're going to make excuses for this regime. I'm done making excuses for terrible management.

More playing time =/= better development
Look at Willy, he got no time to start the year, but developed behind the scenes enough that he's good enough to start for us
KP has far exceeded my expectations this year
I ain't justifying sh*t. The Noah contract is rancid, how many times you want me to say it? We have one bad contract, boo hoo.
And what are you gonna spend that 70 million on anyways? It's inconsequential how much money we use now, because by the time we need it Noah's gonna be off the books anyways so we'll have it by then
You're ignoring the point that we are currently 20th in committed salary for next year, meaning we have well more cap space than average
You don't think that having 6 rookies and one sophomore (half the team) is an indication of what direction we're going?
Cause we could've just as easily have signed a bunch of vets instead of UDFA's
Outside of Melo, Lee, and Noah, nobody on this team is over 30
And like I keep mentioning, people are too obsessed over what number the pick is instead of who's in front of us. We're currently 7th, with Bos, LA, Pho, Philly, Orlando, and Sac in front of us
Out of those 7, the only teams with records for making smart decisions are Boston and LA (who passed on KP for Russell, but that was different management, I have no idea what Magic would've done)
So we are guaranteed one of
Fultz
Jackson
Ball
DSJ
Tatum
Frank
Fox
(which is my big board for the Knicks), any one of which could end up being the best player from this class, and would be a good complement to KP
So to recap, when Phil came on we had: No cap space, no assets, and no draft picks
Now we have cap space, decent assets, and all of our firsts
Along with actual young talent in KP and Willy
The Knicks are in a better spot now than they were 3 years ago. It's not perfect, and with hindsight could've been a lot better, but it is by no means "terrible management"

Just answer two questions

1. Is more opportunity (PT, plays called for you, FGA, etc) a good thing for player development or a bad thing
2. Is having more of a resource (cap space, draft picks, etc) a good thing or a bad thing?

If you're honest, you'll say more is a good thing for both. We did not make having more of these things a priority going into this year and that's what I call terrible management.

You don't. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. But my bar is set above the usual crap standard that we've dealt with as a franchise for 15 years. Terrible job this past offseason. If they're smart they'll have learned their lesson. If they have and make smart decisions, I'll be the first to applaud it.

but, he didn't trade first round picks!!!!!

[DOT]

Your justification of the moves made is ignoring my underlying points.

Compare 25 to 65-70 (the amount we could of had) like I am. Not 30 to 25.

Dead weight of 17% or 22% is still dead weight taking a significant portion of our cap.

And how come you are keep ignoring that by rolling it over you make player development (primarily KP & WHG) a priority and better set yourself up for a top 5 pick?

You're going to make excuses for this regime. I'm done making excuses for terrible management.

More playing time =/= better development
Look at Willy, he got no time to start the year, but developed behind the scenes enough that he's good enough to start for us
KP has far exceeded my expectations this year
I ain't justifying sh*t. The Noah contract is rancid, how many times you want me to say it? We have one bad contract, boo hoo.
And what are you gonna spend that 70 million on anyways? It's inconsequential how much money we use now, because by the time we need it Noah's gonna be off the books anyways so we'll have it by then
You're ignoring the point that we are currently 20th in committed salary for next year, meaning we have well more cap space than average
You don't think that having 6 rookies and one sophomore (half the team) is an indication of what direction we're going?
Cause we could've just as easily have signed a bunch of vets instead of UDFA's
Outside of Melo, Lee, and Noah, nobody on this team is over 30
And like I keep mentioning, people are too obsessed over what number the pick is instead of who's in front of us. We're currently 7th, with Bos, LA, Pho, Philly, Orlando, and Sac in front of us
Out of those 7, the only teams with records for making smart decisions are Boston and LA (who passed on KP for Russell, but that was different management, I have no idea what Magic would've done)
So we are guaranteed one of
Fultz
Jackson
Ball
DSJ
Tatum
Frank
Fox
(which is my big board for the Knicks), any one of which could end up being the best player from this class, and would be a good complement to KP
So to recap, when Phil came on we had: No cap space, no assets, and no draft picks
Now we have cap space, decent assets, and all of our firsts
Along with actual young talent in KP and Willy
The Knicks are in a better spot now than they were 3 years ago. It's not perfect, and with hindsight could've been a lot better, but it is by no means "terrible management"

Just answer two questions

1. Is more opportunity (PT, plays called for you, FGA, etc) a good thing for player development or a bad thing
2. Is having more of a resource (cap space, draft picks, etc) a good thing or a bad thing?

If you're honest, you'll say more is a good thing for both. We did not make having more of these things a priority going into this year and that's what I call terrible management.

You don't. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. But my bar is set above the usual crap standard that we've dealt with as a franchise for 15 years. Terrible job this past offseason. If they're smart they'll have learned their lesson. If they have and make smart decisions, I'll be the first to applaud it.

Yes to both

Now you answer me

Are we not in a better position now than we were when Phil took over?

I say we are, although I give him a C+ overall. Could've been much better, could've been much, much worse

[Yankeeknickfan]

So, is today's game getting cancelled? This snow is crazy

[Im Coming Home]

So, is today's game getting cancelled? This snow is crazy

Not really bad where I'm at, maybe 5 inches and its raining now.

[dakomish23]

More playing time =/= better development
Look at Willy, he got no time to start the year, but developed behind the scenes enough that he's good enough to start for us
KP has far exceeded my expectations this year
I ain't justifying sh*t. The Noah contract is rancid, how many times you want me to say it? We have one bad contract, boo hoo.
And what are you gonna spend that 70 million on anyways? It's inconsequential how much money we use now, because by the time we need it Noah's gonna be off the books anyways so we'll have it by then
You're ignoring the point that we are currently 20th in committed salary for next year, meaning we have well more cap space than average
You don't think that having 6 rookies and one sophomore (half the team) is an indication of what direction we're going?
Cause we could've just as easily have signed a bunch of vets instead of UDFA's
Outside of Melo, Lee, and Noah, nobody on this team is over 30
And like I keep mentioning, people are too obsessed over what number the pick is instead of who's in front of us. We're currently 7th, with Bos, LA, Pho, Philly, Orlando, and Sac in front of us
Out of those 7, the only teams with records for making smart decisions are Boston and LA (who passed on KP for Russell, but that was different management, I have no idea what Magic would've done)
So we are guaranteed one of
Fultz
Jackson
Ball
DSJ
Tatum
Frank
Fox
(which is my big board for the Knicks), any one of which could end up being the best player from this class, and would be a good complement to KP
So to recap, when Phil came on we had: No cap space, no assets, and no draft picks
Now we have cap space, decent assets, and all of our firsts
Along with actual young talent in KP and Willy
The Knicks are in a better spot now than they were 3 years ago. It's not perfect, and with hindsight could've been a lot better, but it is by no means "terrible management"

Just answer two questions

1. Is more opportunity (PT, plays called for you, FGA, etc) a good thing for player development or a bad thing
2. Is having more of a resource (cap space, draft picks, etc) a good thing or a bad thing?

If you're honest, you'll say more is a good thing for both. We did not make having more of these things a priority going into this year and that's what I call terrible management.

You don't. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. But my bar is set above the usual crap standard that we've dealt with as a franchise for 15 years. Terrible job this past offseason. If they're smart they'll have learned their lesson. If they have and make smart decisions, I'll be the first to applaud it.

Yes to both

Now you answer me

Are we not in a better position now than we were when Phil took over?

I say we are, although I give him a C+ overall. Could've been much better, could've been much, much worse

I agree that we could be much worse. If he doesn't make the KP and WHG picks, I think everyone is bringing out the pitchforks and torches. But he did and you can't take that away.

Like I said, I gave credit where credit is due. I'm not here to unnecessarily cream PJax. But I think this year he did a terrible job. I thought he was solid before. Let's see what he does this offseason. If he does what I hope, I'll be a happy man.

[dakomish23]

Man phil should just fire jeff and promote Rambis this offseason. Hes the only coach that will be in sync with phils philosophy.

It would guarantee another tank year and another good pick

Rambis: Tank Commander for Donic!

I love the guaranteed tank from the beginning part. But we could do that just fine with Jeff and not making any win now moves and focusing on player development next year. If WHG isn't starting because PJax wants to justify the Noah signing, I'll see that nothing has been learned from this year. I also think Melo is a goner.