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Did we misread Dantoni?

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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#141 » by Dr. Detfink » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:55 pm

For all his faults coaching a gimmick offense, Mike D'Antoni was undermined on every level and wasn't given much to work with. Like the ESPN interview with Shelby mentioned, he asked Harden to CHANGE. Not many $20M/year guys will do that but he DID and that's why Houston is looking like the NEW Phoenix Suns.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#142 » by whocares1 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:03 pm

Greenie wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
No you're right. We should be grateful that they've ignored the position for years!

Image

This isn't just a PJax problem. This a Knicks organization problem. Always putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

God forbid I state the obvious.


I mean if the organiztion prioritized on getting a franchise point guard, they likely would've drafted Mudiay instead of KP. Since Phil had been here, who was the franchise point guard that they could've gotten but didn't? With the two first round picks and the 4-5 secound round picks he's used, who's the franchise point guard he should've drafted? Who's the franchise point guard that was demanding to play for the Knicks via trade? They're plentiful in the NBA, but unfortunately the Knicks haven't been put in a position to even acquire one. We should reserve judgement until they have the opportunity and don't take it.




1. We don't know what the actual deal involved. Some people thought it was just a swap, others thought it was Rubio and an asset for Rose, others thought it was Rose and an asset for Rubio. Nobody truly knows besides the Knicks FO and Minnesota.

2. Rubio is not a franchise point guard though I probably should've made this number one.

3. Rubio led his team to having the SAME amount of wins as the Knicks. He's an above average point guard, but he's just a good role player and not an actual franchise point guard.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#143 » by NYKAL » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:19 pm

whocares1 wrote:
Greenie wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
I mean if the organiztion prioritized on getting a franchise point guard, they likely would've drafted Mudiay instead of KP. Since Phil had been here, who was the franchise point guard that they could've gotten but didn't? With the two first round picks and the 4-5 secound round picks he's used, who's the franchise point guard he should've drafted? Who's the franchise point guard that was demanding to play for the Knicks via trade? They're plentiful in the NBA, but unfortunately the Knicks haven't been put in a position to even acquire one. We should reserve judgement until they have the opportunity and don't take it.




1. We don't know what the actual deal involved. Some people thought it was just a swap, others thought it was Rubio and an asset for Rose, others thought it was Rose and an asset for Rubio. Nobody truly knows besides the Knicks FO and Minnesota.

2. Rubio is not a franchise point guard though I probably should've made this number one.

3. Rubio led his team to having the SAME amount of wins as the Knicks. He's an above average point guard, but he's just a good role player and not an actual franchise point guard.



We should have just gone after Rondo who was in no-man's land before we set our sights on Rose
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#144 » by Greenie » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:27 pm

whocares1 wrote:
Greenie wrote:
whocares1 wrote:
I mean if the organiztion prioritized on getting a franchise point guard, they likely would've drafted Mudiay instead of KP. Since Phil had been here, who was the franchise point guard that they could've gotten but didn't? With the two first round picks and the 4-5 secound round picks he's used, who's the franchise point guard he should've drafted? Who's the franchise point guard that was demanding to play for the Knicks via trade? They're plentiful in the NBA, but unfortunately the Knicks haven't been put in a position to even acquire one. We should reserve judgement until they have the opportunity and don't take it.




1. We don't know what the actual deal involved. Some people thought it was just a swap, others thought it was Rubio and an asset for Rose, others thought it was Rose and an asset for Rubio. Nobody truly knows besides the Knicks FO and Minnesota.

2. Rubio is not a franchise point guard though I probably should've made this number one.

3. Rubio led his team to having the SAME amount of wins as the Knicks. He's an above average point guard, but he's just a good role player and not an actual franchise point guard.


1. We have different opinions on Rubio.

2. When you have Melo, KP and now Willy you don't actually need a "franchise PG" you need a long term solution at the position that can dish the rock and facilitate the offense. We have scorers out of our ass. Where's the damn balance?

3. See number one again. Why? Rubio would be a damn good PG here. He passes the rock like nobody in the NBA right now and he D's the fuq up.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#145 » by Marty McFly » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:33 pm

Stannis wrote:
poeman wrote:I am pretty sure if Steph Curry was the pick instead of a Jordan Hill...Dantoni probably still remains in the Knicks picture another 3 years after he got fired I think.
Doubtful. Once Melo made it public that he demanded to go to NY, Nuggets would've demanded Curry been included in the deal. It would've have saved us Mosgov, those 2nd rounders though, and one of Gallo/Chandler/1st rounder. :lol:

At the time, nobody (as far as I know) predicted that Curry was going to be a future HoFer.

everyone says that, but i don't know that a d'antoni powered steph curry gets dealt for melo. god knows what kind of numbers he would have put up. kid might have been putting up 25 and 10 that year the knicks brought stat's soon to be broken down ass in, since he wouldn't have been dealing with an Ellis here. at the very least, d'antoni might have resigned if that **** happened.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#146 » by JBreezeNY » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:36 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:For all his faults coaching a gimmick offense, Mike D'Antoni was undermined on every level and wasn't given much to work with. Like the ESPN interview with Shelby mentioned, he asked Harden to CHANGE. Not many $20M/year guys will do that but he DID and that's why Houston is looking like the NEW Phoenix Suns.

Youu get what you can as a coach & make due.

The man is arrogant, egotistical & gave no fu*ks about a defensive coach.

It's not hard to change a player who naturally is a playmaker and always has the ball in his hands but we can play along and say Antoni got him to change.

It's amazing how in all these success stories it's Mike who gets everyone to follow his lead, he was right all along, Mike had no major faults, never had to apologize about anything or adapt to a player.

Just amazing.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#147 » by JBreezeNY » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:43 pm

Marty McFly wrote:
Stannis wrote:
poeman wrote:I am pretty sure if Steph Curry was the pick instead of a Jordan Hill...Dantoni probably still remains in the Knicks picture another 3 years after he got fired I think.
Doubtful. Once Melo made it public that he demanded to go to NY, Nuggets would've demanded Curry been included in the deal. It would've have saved us Mosgov, those 2nd rounders though, and one of Gallo/Chandler/1st rounder. :lol:

At the time, nobody (as far as I know) predicted that Curry was going to be a future HoFer.

everyone says that, but i don't know that a d'antoni powered steph curry gets dealt for melo. god knows what kind of numbers he would have put up. kid might have been putting up 25 and 10 that year the knicks brought stat's soon to be broken down ass in, since he wouldn't have been dealing with an Ellis here. at the very least, d'antoni might have resigned if that **** happened.

Nah he would've gotten traded, Curry's injury problems were pretty horrific to the point he had to take a super reduced contract.

Teams around the league were looking at him sideways so if you dump him on another team for a chance at a star scorer who was leading his teams in the playoffs every year & was in the WCF just the previous season compared to Curry who never been in the playoffs it would've been a tough choice but understandable.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#148 » by Marty McFly » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:05 pm

JBreezeNY wrote:
Marty McFly wrote:
Stannis wrote:Doubtful. Once Melo made it public that he demanded to go to NY, Nuggets would've demanded Curry been included in the deal. It would've have saved us Mosgov, those 2nd rounders though, and one of Gallo/Chandler/1st rounder. :lol:

At the time, nobody (as far as I know) predicted that Curry was going to be a future HoFer.

everyone says that, but i don't know that a d'antoni powered steph curry gets dealt for melo. god knows what kind of numbers he would have put up. kid might have been putting up 25 and 10 that year the knicks brought stat's soon to be broken down ass in, since he wouldn't have been dealing with an Ellis here. at the very least, d'antoni might have resigned if that **** happened.

Nah he would've gotten traded, Curry's injury problems were pretty horrific to the point he had to take a super reduced contract.

Teams around the league were looking at him sideways so if you dump him on another team for a chance at a star scorer who was leading his teams in the playoffs every year & was in the WCF just the previous season compared to Curry who never been in the playoffs it would've been a tough choice but understandable.

if his injury history would have been enough of an issue for us to trade, why would the nuggets want him? who knows he gets hurt here like he had early in his career in golden state anyway?
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#149 » by Bill Pidto » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:27 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:And we STILL dont have a long term solution at PG

This organization is the worst


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No you're right. We should be grateful that they've ignored the position for years!

Image

This isn't just a PJax problem. This a Knicks organization problem. Always putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

God forbid I state the obvious.


I'm rolling my eyes at your constant bitching. I couldn't possibly care less about your basketball analysis.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#150 » by dakomish23 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:32 pm

whocares1 wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:
Image


No you're right. We should be grateful that they've ignored the position for years!

Image

This isn't just a PJax problem. This a Knicks organization problem. Always putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

God forbid I state the obvious.


I mean if the organization prioritized on getting a franchise point guard, they likely would've drafted Mudiay instead of KP. Since Phil had been here, who was the franchise point guard that they could've gotten but didn't? With the two first round picks and the 4-5 secound round picks he's used, who's the franchise point guard he should've drafted? Who's the franchise point guard that was demanding to play for the Knicks via trade? They're plentiful in the NBA, but unfortunately the Knicks haven't been put in a position to even acquire one. We should reserve judgement until they have the opportunity and don't take it.


Did you read the part where I said it wasn't a PJax problem? This has been an issue for decades sans the brief respite we had the first year of Marbury.

Are decades of bandaids enough time to make a judgement?
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#151 » by HarthorneWingo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:36 pm

Greenie wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Phish Tank wrote:
Yeah, that's because Melo was never and will never be a spot up three point shooter. Melo's not a spot up shooter. The ball didn't stick during Linsanity; he just didn't score for **** because he couldn't be a spot up shooter.

He wasn't a good enough shooter to either just spot up and wasn't quick enough to just be a cutter. That's just a waste of talent.


Then I have to ask you, why did we trade half the team for Melo with D'Antoni as the coach?



Because the team fuqed up running after LeBron. We traded Hill in his rookie year just to move Jeffries so we could have more money for the summer of LeBron.

We walked away with knock kneed STAT and Eat em up Felton.

That's why.


You're completely missing the point. We can move on.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#152 » by dakomish23 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:37 pm

Bill Pidto wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:
Image


No you're right. We should be grateful that they've ignored the position for years!

Image

This isn't just a PJax problem. This a Knicks organization problem. Always putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

God forbid I state the obvious.


I'm rolling my eyes at your constant bitching. I couldn't possibly care less about your basketball analysis.


This is rich coming from a dude who's MO is to bitch about Melo. Great basketball insight.

You don't like the reality checks you can ignore me.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#153 » by Bill Pidto » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:41 pm

dakomish23 wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
No you're right. We should be grateful that they've ignored the position for years!

Image

This isn't just a PJax problem. This a Knicks organization problem. Always putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

God forbid I state the obvious.


I'm rolling my eyes at your constant bitching. I couldn't possibly care less about your basketball analysis.


This is rich coming from a dude who's MO is to bitch about Melo. Great basketball insight.

You don't like the reality checks you can ignore me.


Whose*

And bitching about Melo is certainly not my main objective.

Anyway.. ignore you? That may have been the first time I've ever quoted you on this board. You won't have to twist my arm...
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#154 » by Greenie » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:52 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Greenie wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Then I have to ask you, why did we trade half the team for Melo with D'Antoni as the coach?



Because the team fuqed up running after LeBron. We traded Hill in his rookie year just to move Jeffries so we could have more money for the summer of LeBron.

We walked away with knock kneed STAT and Eat em up Felton.

That's why.


You're completely missing the point. We can move on.

The only one missing the point is you.

You can move on. I'm rather comfy.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#155 » by NoLayupRule » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:00 pm

poeman wrote:I am pretty sure if Steph Curry was the pick instead of a Jordan Hill...Dantoni probably still remains in the Knicks picture another 3 years after he got fired I think.

I was calling for Pringles to get fired, I was at the front of the line...I hated his LEGGO coaching, especially on defense.

However, lets focus on the Melo trade back in 2011...I know the Melo trade finalized on Feb 10th, 2011...
Based on our schedule, we went through a rough patch after the big win against Miami. Amare was playing MVP ball though.
http://www.landofbasketball.com/results_by_team/2010_2011_knicks.htm

Do you think long term wise we would have found success with the guys we had or it's true what they say about the Basketball Gods...They hate us, so we would still stick if the Melo trade did not happen?

It's incredibly clear that all dantoni success is Based on having an all NBA pg and surrounding him with shooters and giving full reins over to said pg

With curry that probably would have worked
It might even have worked with Jennings

But curry had injuries his first several years and didn't get into form until year 3 or so

Which might have changed the timeline for us and danton

Either way I'm sad we missed curry and happy we got rid of dantoni
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#156 » by Greenie » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:06 pm

Bill Pidto wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:
I'm rolling my eyes at your constant bitching. I couldn't possibly care less about your basketball analysis.


This is rich coming from a dude who's MO is to bitch about Melo. Great basketball insight.

You don't like the reality checks you can ignore me.


Whose*

And bitching about Melo is certainly not my main objective.

Anyway.. ignore you? That may have been the first time I've ever quoted you on this board. You won't have to twist my arm...


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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#157 » by Clyde Frazier » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:47 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:For all his faults coaching a gimmick offense, Mike D'Antoni was undermined on every level and wasn't given much to work with. Like the ESPN interview with Shelby mentioned, he asked Harden to CHANGE. Not many $20M/year guys will do that but he DID and that's why Houston is looking like the NEW Phoenix Suns.


I mean, it isn't a gimmick offense... you just need certain players to make it work best. D'antoni's main problem here was being stubborn and putting talented players in the doghouse. He's good at what he does, but the mark of a truly elite coach is adapting to your roster. Riley famously did it with the lakers to the knicks. Pop has actually done it twice (early duncan spurs days slow paced, pound it inside, later duncan days fast paced, lots of 3s, etc. and now back to slower paced mid range with LMA there). D'antoni isn't capable of doing that.
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#158 » by Dr. Detfink » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:09 pm

Clyde Frazier wrote:I mean, it isn't a gimmick offense... you just need certain players to make it work best. D'antoni's main problem here was being stubborn and putting talented players in the doghouse. He's good at what he does, but the mark of a truly elite coach is adapting to your roster. Riley famously did it with the lakers to the knicks. Pop has actually done it twice (early duncan spurs days slow paced, pound it inside, later duncan days fast paced, lots of 3s, etc. and now back to slower paced mid range with LMA there). D'antoni isn't capable of doing that.


I'm sorry. D'Antoni's offense much like many, many Phoenix Suns' coaches before and after, are very entertaining but NONE have been proven to win a 'chip...let alone make an appearance in the NBA Finals.

Again, fancy numbers but when the playoffs begins and teams are forced into a half court offense, his style doesn't hold water.

BTW D'Antoni's offense ONLY works IF the player adapts to HIS way...not the other way around. Sure, the Spurs tweak their offense BUT Pops ain't putting up with Dwight Howard, Melo, or any of these guys who DEMAND the offense be tailored for THEM.

Again, read the ESPN interview, he asked Harden to change and he agreed. How many guys making $20M/year do THAT?!?!
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#159 » by Bill Pidto » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:15 pm

Greenie wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
This is rich coming from a dude who's MO is to bitch about Melo. Great basketball insight.

You don't like the reality checks you can ignore me.


Whose*

And bitching about Melo is certainly not my main objective.

Anyway.. ignore you? That may have been the first time I've ever quoted you on this board. You won't have to twist my arm...


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:lol:

But my MAIN objective? Or Modus Operandi? Lol

It's neither.

My MO here is to support Phil in his attempt to wrestle the franchise from the fans/Dolan (one and the same) in order to build a culture and a system, and ultimately, a winner.

Go Phil!
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Re: Did we misread Dantoni? 

Post#160 » by Knickstape1214 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:34 pm

Dr. Detfink wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:I mean, it isn't a gimmick offense... you just need certain players to make it work best. D'antoni's main problem here was being stubborn and putting talented players in the doghouse. He's good at what he does, but the mark of a truly elite coach is adapting to your roster. Riley famously did it with the lakers to the knicks. Pop has actually done it twice (early duncan spurs days slow paced, pound it inside, later duncan days fast paced, lots of 3s, etc. and now back to slower paced mid range with LMA there). D'antoni isn't capable of doing that.


I'm sorry. D'Antoni's offense much like many, many Phoenix Suns' coaches before and after, are very entertaining but NONE have been proven to win a 'chip...let alone make an appearance in the NBA Finals.

Again, fancy numbers but when the playoffs begins and teams are forced into a half court offense, his style doesn't hold water.

BTW D'Antoni's offense ONLY works IF the player adapts to HIS way...not the other way around. Sure, the Spurs tweak their offense BUT Pops ain't putting up with Dwight Howard, Melo, or any of these guys who DEMAND the offense be tailored for THEM.

Again, read the ESPN interview, he asked Harden to change and he agreed. How many guys making $20M/year do THAT?!?!


Every offense is a "gimmick" until it wins a championship. I agree that D'Antoni's offense has major flaws, but nothing Frazier said is wrong - he's good at what he does, but he's unable to adapt the system to the roster.

Also, Harden's game has not changed at all over the last two years. He's playmaking a little more, but, like last year, the entire offense is pick and roll based with isolations for Harden when he has the mismatch. More threes, but, again, nothing else has changed from last year besides talent.
Don't trade Melo unless we can get fair value. #hoodwinkedbyPhil #firePhil. Stop being dumb sheep.

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