Official MMA discussion thread pt 3 UFC 300: Pereira vs Hill, Zhang vs Xionan, BMF Gaethje vs Holloway

[j4remi]

Thank God for Robert Whitaker, because all the fan-favorites got beat up. Merab still doesn't impress me. Topuria is special. Whitaker is still REALLY good!

...Ian Garry now has the longest active win streak in the Welterweight Division and called out Colby Covington. Colby's mental warfare has lost its luster, but Garry seems like the type it might actually bother.

[Ghetto Gospel]

the volk knockout was sad, it looks over for him.

also a little concerned for him as a human. if he truly was drinking before the islam fight, which may check out with him pleading with the ufc to stay active, i'm not sure what the next several months for him is going to looks like with him desperately needing several months off now

[bringbackhoffa]

Thank God for Robert Whitaker, because all the fan-favorites got beat up. Merab still doesn't impress me. Topuria is special. Whitaker is still REALLY good!

...Ian Garry now has the longest active win streak in the Welterweight Division and called out Colby Covington. Colby's mental warfare has lost its luster, but Garry seems like the type it might actually bother.

Man I thought the opposite that after that performance no chance O'Malley will want to face Merab

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[j4remi]

the volk knockout was sad, it looks over for him.

also a little concerned for him as a human. if he truly was drinking before the islam fight, which may check out with him pleading with the ufc to stay active, i'm not sure what the next several months for him is going to looks like with him desperately needing several months off now

Yeah, I really didn't enjoy seeing Volk's reaction after the Islam loss. The stories about him drinking are concerning. He shouldn't have rushed back, though I don't think it would have made much difference with Topuria.

Every time one of these great fighters falls off, it puts Jose Aldo's greatness in perspective. Volk falls 2 title defenses short of the Aldo run, and Aldo held the WEC title before UFC even had an FW division.

Thank God for Robert Whitaker, because all the fan-favorites got beat up. Merab still doesn't impress me. Topuria is special. Whitaker is still REALLY good!

...Ian Garry now has the longest active win streak in the Welterweight Division and called out Colby Covington. Colby's mental warfare has lost its luster, but Garry seems like the type it might actually bother.

Man I thought the opposite that after that performance no chance O'Malley will want to face Merab

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Don't get me wrong, Merab has a GREAT stylistic advantage over O'Malley and Chito both. He's got a great shot to be a champion soon. But I don't think that performance beats Henry Cejudo before he retired, or AlJo, or prime Dillashaw. He's got 13 UFC fights and one finish. So, he's really good but I don't see an all-timer personally. There's a better version of him on the way up in Umar Nurmagomedov.

[NoStatsGuy]

man really noone believes in my man chito

omalley vs merab is the talk of the town for the BWs. could be a mistake, chito can be very dangerous.

and yea, regarding volk it might be over.. if he doesnt get a rematch what fight is really there for him? I like ilia but i think its fair to say volk didnt look too bad. he got caught with a bomb, it happens. but these things spiral out of control usually. he lost 3 out of 4 and the fact he lost his drive is very alarming. but i honestly think he deserves a rematch.

i think the conor call out was weak and ilia should have to respect the line behind him. theres definitley some exciting fights to make. conor is not comming back and if he comes back, it for sure wont be 145 so whats the point of that call out and disrespecting his fellow Fws by saying none of them deserve a shot? He has starpower written all over him, but still..

[j4remi]

man really noone believes in my man chito

omalley vs merab is the talk of the town for the BWs. could be a mistake, chito can be very dangerous.

and yea, regarding volk it might be over.. if he doesnt get a rematch what fight is really there for him? I like ilia but i think its fair to say volk didnt look too bad. he got caught with a bomb, it happens. but these things spiral out of control usually. he lost 3 out of 4 and the fact he lost his drive is very alarming. but i honestly think he deserves a rematch.

i think the conor call out was weak and ilia should have to respect the line behind him. theres definitley some exciting fights to make. conor is not comming back and if he comes back, it for sure wont be 145 so whats the point of that call out and disrespecting his fellow Fws by saying none of them deserve a shot? He has starpower written all over him, but still..

You're right, people are sleeping on Chito a bit. I guess the working assumption is that O'Malley has had enough time to come up with an answer for Chito's leg kicks, but that's easier said than done (for example, Max Holloway had 75 mins of fighting Volk and never found a good answer for sharp calf kicks). Vera's only ever been outstruck by Jose Aldo. Everyone else had to wrestle to beat him, and O'Malley doesn't wrestle.

I agree that Volk "deserves" a rematch. But I think the UFC should be more proactive in doing what's best for the fighter instead of what they've "earned." Tell Volk to take a break, get him a money fight that makes up for lack of immediate rematch, and make sure Ilia can handle champion-pressure before rushing Volk into his worst match-up in the division. I can see Evoloev or Max surprising people against Topuria (especially if Topuria can't handle the distractions that come with a belt), and then Volk's path to the belt becomes much easier.

The Conor call-out was corny as hell. Ilia's behavior this past week, and his beefs prior to this, suggest to me that he might not have it between the ears to keep up for long. I'm old enough to remember when even GSP cracked under pressure with his first belt. You can see the gap in someone like O'Malley, whose beef virtually always ties into a future matchup, and someone like Ilia who just talks crap aimlessly (hence a worthless beef with Paddy Pimblett).

[j4remi]

I found a pretty great instructional thread about Ilia Topuria's ring cutting. I suggest reading the whole thing through, then come back here and I'm gonna just add a bit more to a few of the clips.

Let's start here at the top:

Spoiler:

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First thing I'll add right away is to look at the quality of Topuria's feints here. He's using a hard in-step to sell that he's stepping in with power. Also note the upper body; he often uses his shoulders to sell the feint. The best feints are sold at the hips and shoulders IMO. You can see this in damn near ever tweet in the thread. Topuria's feints are great. Next up...

Spoiler:

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Here's where Topuria's cage cutting separates itself from Max Holloway. When Volk threw against Max, Holloway would stop or move backwards. That gave Volk time to reset himself in the cage. Topuria doesn't freeze. He blocks the strike and moves forward behind a feint or counter. So, if you rewatch the Max fights...Max got Volk back near the cage at times, but Volk could always punch his way back to center. Ilia didn't let him circle out so easily.

Next we'll talk about level changing with your ring cutting...

Spoiler:

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The tweet makes a great note of the ways Topuria punished Volk for circling left. I particularly like round kicks as answers to Volk's constant lateral movement and Max knocked the Aussie down off a similar philosophy. But I also want to point out that Ilia throws a counter jab and a round kick in that clip but doesn't headhunt.

The jab to the body is one of my favorite punches, and it's especially useful against a guy like Volk. Volk has long reach, so he habitually throws punches out and then leans back away from the counter. It means that counters upstairs whiff and leave openings for Volk. But his body and legs are left open. This has two uses...first, it's landing strikes and getting points against a guy who will happily outpoint you. Second, it's getting him to guard low while he moves backward which opens up options once he can't keep going backward.

One quick note about stance-switchers

Spoiler:

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The best time to catch guys who frequently switch stances is right as they switch. They'll he to square their stance for at least a split second, which is when you can catch them off-balance. Ilia's a little late in the two examples shown in the thread, but he's still punishing Volk for switching stances in the pocket (don't let guys get so comfortable they can switch stances at punching distance).

Final bit:

Spoiler:

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This puts everything together from the thread. Note the hard step into the feint; the quick response and pressure when Volk jabs and re-centers; and the low round kick at the end to force Volk off his lateral movement...now note where Volk is. He's been pushed behind the black line and the low kick has lowered his guard and squared him up with no space to move backward. The sequence doesn't end in a devastating combination, but we all know that it will soon enough.

Topuria is a special talent. If you know boxers that are iffy on MMA, I'd put Topuria up there as a guy to show them. He's not the cleanest boxer all the time, but he does a bunch of subtle things that a boxing head will probably appreciate.

[j4remi]

It's a really great day of fights folks. We got PFL vs Bellator, a champ vs champ event. The prelims start at 12 and the main card at 3. Ryan Bader fights a giant, Jason Jackson fights Ray Cooper, and Thiago Santos fights Yoel Romero...plus Nemkov, Pico, and Claressa Shields are all in action.

Then UFC starts tonight with Brandon Moreno vs Brandon Royval aka a guaranteed SCRAP as the main event. The co-main is a fight we were supposed to get ages ago, Yair Rodriguez vs Brian Ortega. If Yair wins, he's got a good shot at fighting Topuria next. The rest of the card is lacking in name power, but features a lot of scrappy guys. So, it should be good.

And if you still want more fights, Rizin's Landmark card went down over night. So there's a whole collection of fights including a few Kickboxing rules and special rules fights out of Japan to dive into.

[j4remi]

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[j4remi]

Well fight fam, this is one of those rare weeks of every year where we get blessed with multiple major fighting events.

For the boxing heads: Francis Ngannou vs Anthony Johsua goes down on Friday, and after his performance against Fury, it's all eyes on the HW's. Joshua is chinny and has slipped from his peak dominance, so there's a chance for Francis to do the unthinkable.

Meanwhile, MMA fans get UFC 299 on Saturday; 299 is arguably even better than the much-hyped UFC 300. Sean O'Malley goes for his first title defense against the only man to beat him, Chito Vera. That's a guaranteed fun fight between two elite strikers. Then Kevin Holland welcomes Michael Venom Page to the UFC. Then it's old-guard vs hungry newcomers with Poiris vs Saint-Denis; Burns vs Della Madalena, and Yan vs Song Yadong.

Those are all bangers. it's a striker-heavy card with prospects who haven't been rushed into these fights vs vets. The prelim does a similar thing, but it's more grappler-friendly.

Finally, One FC is doing an all-female card with Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Submission Grappling, and MMA matches. It should be a lot of fun as well. That one's a bit screwed because it's on Friday when all eyes will be Ngannou/Joshua.

[j4remi]

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[HarthorneWingo]

Are calf kicks becoming to dangerous and unstoppable in the UFC? I’ve seen so many recent fights where calf kicks in the opening minute of the first round determine the result of the fight. It’s almost becoming a calf-kicking tournament.

[Guano]

Well fight fam, this is one of those rare weeks of every year where we get blessed with multiple major fighting events.

For the boxing heads: Francis Ngannou vs Anthony Johsua goes down on Friday, and after his performance against Fury, it's all eyes on the HW's. Joshua is chinny and has slipped from his peak dominance, so there's a chance for Francis to do the unthinkable.

Meanwhile, MMA fans get UFC 299 on Saturday; 299 is arguably even better than the much-hyped UFC 300. Sean O'Malley goes for his first title defense against the only man to beat him, Chito Vera. That's a guaranteed fun fight between two elite strikers. Then Kevin Holland welcomes Michael Venom Page to the UFC. Then it's old-guard vs hungry newcomers with Poiris vs Saint-Denis; Burns vs Della Madalena, and Yan vs Song Yadong.

Those are all bangers. it's a striker-heavy card with prospects who haven't been rushed into these fights vs vets. The prelim does a similar thing, but it's more grappler-friendly.

Finally, One FC is doing an all-female card with Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Submission Grappling, and MMA matches. It should be a lot of fun as well. That one's a bit screwed because it's on Friday when all eyes will be Ngannou/Joshua.

Who you got in the Poirier vs Saint-Denis fight?

I kinda love/hate that Poirier took this fight. On one hand it shows what a true fighter he is on the other it does nothing for him. He is taking on a relative no name fighter who is a killer. More old heads should do this but damn if I want to see Poirier lose this one which I think might happen

[j4remi]

Are calf kicks becoming to dangerous and unstoppable in the UFC? I’ve seen so many recent fights where calf kicks in the opening minute of the first round determine the result of the fight. It’s almost becoming a calf-kicking tournament.

I remember asking a Muay Thai instructor a while back why calf kicks were taking over MMA, and he rolled his eyes. He basically said to just slide the lead leg back, and you're golden. He made it sound easy, so I was confused about fighters having so many issues with it. But I think that's more a result of MMA strikers who haven't trained against the kicks enough. A boxer hasn't, wrestlers and BJJ guys definitely haven't, and you won't see it work as well against a Muay Thai practitioner (I think that's why they're not as big in OneFC MMA matches).

So the real answer to me is "No, they're not too dangerous or unstoppable. Fighters just need to train to address them." Here's Justin Gaethje talking about how to counter calf kicks, and he's echoing a response I've heard from a few strikers at this point...slide the out and/or hurt make it painful for them to land.

Watch on YouTube

Too many MMA fighters learned to play catch-and-pitch with traditional leg kicks (take the kick, then fire back real quick with something heavy of your own). That doesn't work on calf kicks.

Who you got in the Poirier vs Saint-Denis fight?

I kinda love/hate that Poirier took this fight. On one hand it shows what a true fighter he is on the other it does nothing for him. He is taking on a relative no name fighter who is a killer. More old heads should do this but damn if I want to see Poirier lose this one which I think might happen

I've placed modest bets on Poirier and Burns both. I have the top three fights on this main card as toss-ups. But that means when the odds are as wide as they've gotten for those fights, I'm willing to risk some money on the dogs. I lean toward Poirier with Saint-Denis, because Diamond is EXCELLENT at countering power strikers. So, I think his odds improve the longer the fight goes.

For the top three I go...
Lean-O'Malley over Chito. But I won't risk money.
Lean-Poirier over Saint-Denis.
Lean-JDM over Burns...but it's so close for me, that I'm willing to risk money on Burns.

I don't think the leg kicks will win for Chito again. But O'Malley might not be able to keep up his volume across 25 minutes, which gives Vera a decent shot at the upset if he actually throws enough strikes.

I really believe Saint-Denis has to catch something nasty early or Poirier will get his reads and take the fight. That's not impossible for Saint-Denis.

JDM's gotta keep the fight standing and just stay sharp with straight punches. But I've seen lesser guys take JDM down, and Burns is too good on the ground. So if Burns gets the takedowns, he'll win the rounds and maybe even find a submission.

This card is GREAT because so many fights are toss-ups. But it's bad for me as a gambler. The few sure-things on this card are massive favorites, so they're not worth betting on.

[j4remi]

Watch on YouTube

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PFL Europe Card streaming free today (should start soon). Cedric Doumbe has all sorts of star qualities as the headliner here...not bad odds to bet on him either.

[Guano]

Are calf kicks becoming to dangerous and unstoppable in the UFC? I’ve seen so many recent fights where calf kicks in the opening minute of the first round determine the result of the fight. It’s almost becoming a calf-kicking tournament.

I remember asking a Muay Thai instructor a while back why calf kicks were taking over MMA, and he rolled his eyes. He basically said to just slide the lead leg back, and you're golden. He made it sound easy, so I was confused about fighters having so many issues with it. But I think that's more a result of MMA strikers who haven't trained against the kicks enough. A boxer hasn't, wrestlers and BJJ guys definitely haven't, and you won't see it work as well against a Muay Thai practitioner (I think that's why they're not as big in OneFC MMA matches).

So the real answer to me is "No, they're not too dangerous or unstoppable. Fighters just need to train to address them." Here's Justin Gaethje talking about how to counter calf kicks, and he's echoing a response I've heard from a few strikers at this point...slide the out and/or hurt make it painful for them to land.

Watch on YouTube

Too many MMA fighters learned to play catch-and-pitch with traditional leg kicks (take the kick, then fire back real quick with something heavy of your own). That doesn't work on calf kicks.

Who you got in the Poirier vs Saint-Denis fight?

I kinda love/hate that Poirier took this fight. On one hand it shows what a true fighter he is on the other it does nothing for him. He is taking on a relative no name fighter who is a killer. More old heads should do this but damn if I want to see Poirier lose this one which I think might happen

I've placed modest bets on Poirier and Burns both. I have the top three fights on this main card as toss-ups. But that means when the odds are as wide as they've gotten for those fights, I'm willing to risk some money on the dogs. I lean toward Poirier with Saint-Denis, because Diamond is EXCELLENT at countering power strikers. So, I think his odds improve the longer the fight goes.

For the top three I go...
Lean-O'Malley over Chito. But I won't risk money.
Lean-Poirier over Saint-Denis.
Lean-JDM over Burns...but it's so close for me, that I'm willing to risk money on Burns.

I don't think the leg kicks will win for Chito again. But O'Malley might not be able to keep up his volume across 25 minutes, which gives Vera a decent shot at the upset if he actually throws enough strikes.

I really believe Saint-Denis has to catch something nasty early or Poirier will get his reads and take the fight. That's not impossible for Saint-Denis.

JDM's gotta keep the fight standing and just stay sharp with straight punches. But I've seen lesser guys take JDM down, and Burns is too good on the ground. So if Burns gets the takedowns, he'll win the rounds and maybe even find a submission.

This card is GREAT because so many fights are toss-ups. But it's bad for me as a gambler. The few sure-things on this card are massive favorites, so they're not worth betting on.

That early round dumb brawler Poirier worries me. He is hitable and fights dumb as hell sometimes. I worry his chin is fading and he will get caught early. Saint-Denis is savage and hits hard as hell. I also worry that Saint-Denis wrestling might play a big role. I just hate this fight for Poirier. He needs to survive early and keep the fight standing. Don't brawl and don't pull a fcking guillotine

[j4remi]

I've placed modest bets on Poirier and Burns both. I have the top three fights on this main card as toss-ups. But that means when the odds are as wide as they've gotten for those fights, I'm willing to risk some money on the dogs. I lean toward Poirier with Saint-Denis, because Diamond is EXCELLENT at countering power strikers. So, I think his odds improve the longer the fight goes.

For the top three I go...
Lean-O'Malley over Chito. But I won't risk money.
Lean-Poirier over Saint-Denis.
Lean-JDM over Burns...but it's so close for me, that I'm willing to risk money on Burns.

I don't think the leg kicks will win for Chito again. But O'Malley might not be able to keep up his volume across 25 minutes, which gives Vera a decent shot at the upset if he actually throws enough strikes.

I really believe Saint-Denis has to catch something nasty early or Poirier will get his reads and take the fight. That's not impossible for Saint-Denis.

JDM's gotta keep the fight standing and just stay sharp with straight punches. But I've seen lesser guys take JDM down, and Burns is too good on the ground. So if Burns gets the takedowns, he'll win the rounds and maybe even find a submission.

This card is GREAT because so many fights are toss-ups. But it's bad for me as a gambler. The few sure-things on this card are massive favorites, so they're not worth betting on.

That early round dumb brawler Poirier worries me. He is hitable and fights dumb as hell sometimes. I worry his chin is fading and he will get caught early. Saint-Denis is savage and hits hard as hell. I also worry that Saint-Denis wrestling might play a big role. I just hate this fight for Poirier. He needs to survive early and keep the fight standing. Don't brawl and don't pull a fcking guillotine[/quote]

I have hopes that Poirier can neutralize Saint-Denis' wrestling. Diamond's been in there with great grapplers, and Khabib's the only one that made him look bad. But Poirer getting chinned early is definitely a concern. The chin is a worry because of how bad the last KO was, but it's been close to a year, so I'm counting on his recovery.

For me, I just keep thinking about the combos Saint-Denis threw at Thiago Moises along the cage...I think Poirier could counter the hell out of some of that. This is a huge step up in competition for someone whose toughest opponents were Moises and Frevola.

[HarthorneWingo]

Are calf kicks becoming to dangerous and unstoppable in the UFC? I’ve seen so many recent fights where calf kicks in the opening minute of the first round determine the result of the fight. It’s almost becoming a calf-kicking tournament.

I remember asking a Muay Thai instructor a while back why calf kicks were taking over MMA, and he rolled his eyes. He basically said to just slide the lead leg back, and you're golden. He made it sound easy, so I was confused about fighters having so many issues with it. But I think that's more a result of MMA strikers who haven't trained against the kicks enough. A boxer hasn't, wrestlers and BJJ guys definitely haven't, and you won't see it work as well against a Muay Thai practitioner (I think that's why they're not as big in OneFC MMA matches).

So the real answer to me is "No, they're not too dangerous or unstoppable. Fighters just need to train to address them." Here's Justin Gaethje talking about how to counter calf kicks, and he's echoing a response I've heard from a few strikers at this point...slide the out and/or hurt make it painful for them to land.

Watch on YouTube

Too many MMA fighters learned to play catch-and-pitch with traditional leg kicks (take the kick, then fire back real quick with something heavy of your own). That doesn't work on calf kicks.

Can you imagine if Edson Barboza used his kicking skills to specialize in calf kicks?

I used to think that MMA was a test between boxing/traditional striking vs. wrestling/BJJ. But today, you really have to be a complete fighter if you want to compete for a championship.

[j4remi]

Can you imagine if Edson Barboza used his kicking skills to specialize in calf kicks?

I used to think that MMA was a test between boxing/traditional striking vs. wrestling/BJJ. But today, you really have to be a complete fighter if you want to compete for a championship.

Edson in the calf-kick era would have been a demon. He started to utilize them toward the end of his career, but he'd already fallen off. The Gaethje/Edson fight has some of the BEST trades of calf kicks. Dudes just annihilating each other. If you want to see one of the best early examples of calf-kicks, find Lorenz Larkin vs Neil Magny. Larkin started throwing spinning calf-kicks

MMA has really evolved. It was originally marketed as "which fighting style is the best," but we're finally in an era where kids grew training to be professional mixed martial artists. Not pro boxers, or muay-thai fighters, or wrestlers...MMA pros. It's a really cool place to arrive.

[j4remi]

Anthony Joshua vs Francis Ngannou is about to go down...

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