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OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2

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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1961 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:47 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
TerrenceClarke wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I don't really agree with that take TBH

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As much as I think these WR's are super talented (and they are very highly regarded prospects). Whats a good WR with your QB situation still in flux and you so many other holes on the roster. Also good WR do get found all over the place.

Armon-Ra St. Brown just got paid and is the highest paid WR and he was a 4th round pick.

Also I'm not saying move down like into the 20's or something like that. There is a situation you can move down a few spots and still get Rome Odunze...I think people are trying to either trade up for JJM if he gets past the pats or Joe Alt...That is the recent rumors that teams want to secure the top rated LT.



I been saying this for Months. WR is almost turning into RB Position where there is value later. The majority of the top cats were not even top 10.

WR is not QB. you can pass on alot of them if you have other pressing needs and still get a stud later.


RBs lose value because they are way more plug and play and don’t impact the game as much as an elite wr. Chase, Jefferson, Lamb, Hill, etc are all game changers that open things up. Not disagreeing that you can find one later. In this draft where we are picking in the 2nd round, we could see 9 or 10wrs go before our pick in the 2nd round so it will be tougher. A lot of teams are gonna be targeting wrs in that range so they will be flying off the board. So it will be tough to find a legit stud wr later in the draft….not impossible, but odds are lower for sure compared to the top 3 guys.

Also, I just think the top 3 guys are special talent. Can have a legit stud wr locked up for awhile and plug and major hole.

Otherwise, the other positions just look dicey at #6.


agreed which is why I am suggesting a trade down option.

I do think if we don't go QB...our pick will be a WR if we stay at #6...I'm just giving you an alternative plan. Because I know you don't believe in Daniel Jones (and at this point I think you can't with the injury history). So picking a WR...what is your plan for the QB position?
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1962 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:55 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I don't really agree with that take TBH

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As much as I think these WR's are super talented (and they are very highly regarded prospects). Whats a good WR with your QB situation still in flux and you so many other holes on the roster. Also good WR do get found all over the place.

Armon-Ra St. Brown just got paid and is the highest paid WR and he was a 4th round pick.


I think that’s a flawed way to look at hits and misses. Daniel Jones is considered a hit and he is a bust.

No disagreement that you can find wrs later in the draft too but that also applies to all positions. You can find QBs and other positions later in draft too.

I would just look at it independently and each player independently. WRs are immensely valuable especially stud ones so if you have a chance to get one could be a great pick.



Its not "perfect" logic but its also not terrible logic (otherwise bust or hit becomes subjective - so there will be outliers for sure in any objective statistic). Which, I also don't consider Daniel Jones a bust pick. A QB taking your team to the playoffs and winning a playoff game in your rookie contract is considered a bust? Yes now his injuries have put us in a position we really can't 100% move forward with him. But thats football sometimes.

Ryan Leaf, Jamarcas Russell, Akili Smith are busts.

And yes I'm not saying picking a WR absolutely is a no go, but trading down isn't necessarily "filling" holes...if you get the picks right you can get multiple impactful players. But Diggs gets traded, Brandon Aiyuk is likely to be traded. Tee Higgins could eventually be traded. I think its also the easiest position to trade for an impactful player if you really are ready to make the jump.


Jones def looks like a bust for a #6 pick. You need more than 1 good year out of 5 not to be considered a bust as a #6 pick. And some of those seasons were brutal. He was absolutely awful last year. DeVito and Tyrod were both better.

Maybe they can find a legit #1 in a trade. But that will also cost picks and a large amount of cap space. Where if you draft a stud you have them on a rookie contract for a few years.

And again, I would look at it independently. Marvin Harrison Jr…is he really going to be a bust? He might be the safest player in the draft. I think Nabers and Odunze are relatively safe too with a ton of potential. There is always a chance for busts and the draft can be a crap shoot. Just think they are bpa, they fill a big need, and are at positions that are very valuable.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1963 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:58 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
TerrenceClarke wrote:

I been saying this for Months. WR is almost turning into RB Position where there is value later. The majority of the top cats were not even top 10.

WR is not QB. you can pass on alot of them if you have other pressing needs and still get a stud later.


RBs lose value because they are way more plug and play and don’t impact the game as much as an elite wr. Chase, Jefferson, Lamb, Hill, etc are all game changers that open things up. Not disagreeing that you can find one later. In this draft where we are picking in the 2nd round, we could see 9 or 10wrs go before our pick in the 2nd round so it will be tougher. A lot of teams are gonna be targeting wrs in that range so they will be flying off the board. So it will be tough to find a legit stud wr later in the draft….not impossible, but odds are lower for sure compared to the top 3 guys.

Also, I just think the top 3 guys are special talent. Can have a legit stud wr locked up for awhile and plug and major hole.

Otherwise, the other positions just look dicey at #6.


agreed which is why I am suggesting a trade down option.

I do think if we don't go QB...our pick will be a WR if we stay at #6...I'm just giving you an alternative plan. Because I know you don't believe in Daniel Jones (and at this point I think you can't with the injury history). So picking a WR...what is your plan for the QB position?


Depending on the haul trading down can work out. Really depends where they go from there.

For this year I guess it will be Locke and/or Jones. Maybe we can still draft a Qb later in this draft if the cards play out. Either way I don’t expect us to be good. Hopefully next year we can draft or find a franchise QB.

Trading up if they can to take one of the top QBs could also work out….just not expecting it.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1964 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:59 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
I think that’s a flawed way to look at hits and misses. Daniel Jones is considered a hit and he is a bust.

No disagreement that you can find wrs later in the draft too but that also applies to all positions. You can find QBs and other positions later in draft too.

I would just look at it independently and each player independently. WRs are immensely valuable especially stud ones so if you have a chance to get one could be a great pick.



Its not "perfect" logic but its also not terrible logic (otherwise bust or hit becomes subjective - so there will be outliers for sure in any objective statistic). Which, I also don't consider Daniel Jones a bust pick. A QB taking your team to the playoffs and winning a playoff game in your rookie contract is considered a bust? Yes now his injuries have put us in a position we really can't 100% move forward with him. But thats football sometimes.

Ryan Leaf, Jamarcas Russell, Akili Smith are busts.

And yes I'm not saying picking a WR absolutely is a no go, but trading down isn't necessarily "filling" holes...if you get the picks right you can get multiple impactful players. But Diggs gets traded, Brandon Aiyuk is likely to be traded. Tee Higgins could eventually be traded. I think its also the easiest position to trade for an impactful player if you really are ready to make the jump.


Jones def looks like a bust for a #6 pick. You need more than 1 good year out of 5 not to be considered a bust as a #6 pick. And some of those seasons were brutal. He was absolutely awful last year. DeVito and Tyrod were both better.

Maybe they can find a legit #1 in a trade. But that will also cost picks and a large amount of cap space. Where if you draft a stud you have them on a rookie contract for a few years.

And again, I would look at it independently. Marvin Harrison Jr…is he really going to be a bust? He might be the safest player in the draft. I think Nabers and Odunze are relatively safe too with a ton of potential. There is always a chance for busts and the draft can be a crap shoot. Just think they are bpa, they fill a big need, and are at positions that are very valuable.


You consider Daniel Jones rookie year a bad year? And last year was brutal, no denying that and I'm not even arguing for Daniel Jones in the future anymore (the injury stuff is too much to commit too). But lets also act like the QB's last year were working with the same set of circumstances. Taylor and Devito had much better offensive line situations.

I am not even saying the top 3 WR's are going to bust. That wasn't my argument. My argument is that even if they are really good. There still is a reason to trade out of the pick because of where the Giants roster and needs are at.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1965 » by moocow007 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:27 pm

mpharris36 wrote:I don't really agree with that take TBH

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As much as I think these WR's are super talented (and they are very highly regarded prospects). Whats a good WR with your QB situation still in flux and you so many other holes on the roster. Also good WR do get found all over the place.

Armon-Ra St. Brown just got paid and is the highest paid WR and he was a 4th round pick.

Also I'm not saying move down like into the 20's or something like that. There is a situation you can move down a few spots and still get Rome Odunze...I think people are trying to either trade up for JJM if he gets past the pats or Joe Alt...That is the recent rumors that teams want to secure the top rated LT.


That's why teams that play it safe tend to draft Offensive Lineman. While skill is obviously needed I think the reality is that the complexity or talent needed to play the OL is a bit less than the high skill positions like QB, RB and WR. It's kind of like comparing the SS, CF and P positions (higher skill positions) to RF, DH and 1B (lower skill positions). A lot more likely for a player who plays 1B to stick around. Doesn't mean that taking a OL is the right move though. Safe doesn't mean right. Hit or miss is impacted by the requirements of each position in that sport. WR is especially difficult to gauge cause there are significant psychological impacts and nuance to that position from college to the NFL. Doesn't mean you don't take a chance (and it is a chance) to draft one. No better example than the Jets 2022 draft where they went the high impact high skill high risk route with their first 5 picks (CB, WR, EDGE, RB, TE). They got 3 of those 5 completely right. The other 2 are kinda TBD.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1966 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:33 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
RBs lose value because they are way more plug and play and don’t impact the game as much as an elite wr. Chase, Jefferson, Lamb, Hill, etc are all game changers that open things up. Not disagreeing that you can find one later. In this draft where we are picking in the 2nd round, we could see 9 or 10wrs go before our pick in the 2nd round so it will be tougher. A lot of teams are gonna be targeting wrs in that range so they will be flying off the board. So it will be tough to find a legit stud wr later in the draft….not impossible, but odds are lower for sure compared to the top 3 guys.

Also, I just think the top 3 guys are special talent. Can have a legit stud wr locked up for awhile and plug and major hole.

Otherwise, the other positions just look dicey at #6.


agreed which is why I am suggesting a trade down option.

I do think if we don't go QB...our pick will be a WR if we stay at #6...I'm just giving you an alternative plan. Because I know you don't believe in Daniel Jones (and at this point I think you can't with the injury history). So picking a WR...what is your plan for the QB position?


Depending on the haul trading down can work out. Really depends where they go from there.

For this year I guess it will be Locke and/or Jones. Maybe we can still draft a Qb later in this draft if the cards play out. Either way I don’t expect us to be good. Hopefully next year we can draft or find a franchise QB.

Trading up if they can to take one of the top QBs could also work out….just not expecting it.


If they don't have a good year I'm not sure Daboll and Schoen will still be here. That will factor into this.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1967 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:34 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:

Its not "perfect" logic but its also not terrible logic (otherwise bust or hit becomes subjective - so there will be outliers for sure in any objective statistic). Which, I also don't consider Daniel Jones a bust pick. A QB taking your team to the playoffs and winning a playoff game in your rookie contract is considered a bust? Yes now his injuries have put us in a position we really can't 100% move forward with him. But thats football sometimes.

Ryan Leaf, Jamarcas Russell, Akili Smith are busts.

And yes I'm not saying picking a WR absolutely is a no go, but trading down isn't necessarily "filling" holes...if you get the picks right you can get multiple impactful players. But Diggs gets traded, Brandon Aiyuk is likely to be traded. Tee Higgins could eventually be traded. I think its also the easiest position to trade for an impactful player if you really are ready to make the jump.


Jones def looks like a bust for a #6 pick. You need more than 1 good year out of 5 not to be considered a bust as a #6 pick. And some of those seasons were brutal. He was absolutely awful last year. DeVito and Tyrod were both better.

Maybe they can find a legit #1 in a trade. But that will also cost picks and a large amount of cap space. Where if you draft a stud you have them on a rookie contract for a few years.

And again, I would look at it independently. Marvin Harrison Jr…is he really going to be a bust? He might be the safest player in the draft. I think Nabers and Odunze are relatively safe too with a ton of potential. There is always a chance for busts and the draft can be a crap shoot. Just think they are bpa, they fill a big need, and are at positions that are very valuable.


You consider Daniel Jones rookie year a bad year? And last year was brutal, no denying that and I'm not even arguing for Daniel Jones in the future anymore (the injury stuff is too much to commit too). But lets also act like the QB's last year were working with the same set of circumstances. Taylor and Devito had much better offensive line situations.

I am not even saying the top 3 WR's are going to bust. That wasn't my argument. My argument is that even if they are really good. There still is a reason to trade out of the pick because of where the Giants roster and needs are at.


He was ok. Rookies QBs you can’t expect too much. But in the end he still doesn’t look like a franchise QB or even an above avg starter. In a way, it’s even worse then guys like Russell or Zach Wilson. At least it was clear and they cut ties. We have been stuck for 6 years with a huge cap hit. Even if he turns into a backup QB that is still a bust at pick #6 imo. So not looking good.

But if you want to give Daniel Jones another shot or give Locke a chance, then you need to at least get them 1 weapon on offense. So I don’t think it’s a wasted pick. Especially if we follow up with a qb next year. Think it’s more so about building piece by piece and accumulating high end talent where we can.

Wr is a need. A playmaker/weapon on offense is a huge huge need. There are consensus stud wr prospects that should be there for our pick. The positional value lines up. It just seems like a lot of over thinking to pass on these guys when it’s set up perfectly to fit our need.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1968 » by moocow007 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:41 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
RBs lose value because they are way more plug and play and don’t impact the game as much as an elite wr. Chase, Jefferson, Lamb, Hill, etc are all game changers that open things up. Not disagreeing that you can find one later. In this draft where we are picking in the 2nd round, we could see 9 or 10wrs go before our pick in the 2nd round so it will be tougher. A lot of teams are gonna be targeting wrs in that range so they will be flying off the board. So it will be tough to find a legit stud wr later in the draft….not impossible, but odds are lower for sure compared to the top 3 guys.

Also, I just think the top 3 guys are special talent. Can have a legit stud wr locked up for awhile and plug and major hole.

Otherwise, the other positions just look dicey at #6.


agreed which is why I am suggesting a trade down option.

I do think if we don't go QB...our pick will be a WR if we stay at #6...I'm just giving you an alternative plan. Because I know you don't believe in Daniel Jones (and at this point I think you can't with the injury history). So picking a WR...what is your plan for the QB position?


Depending on the haul trading down can work out. Really depends where they go from there.

For this year I guess it will be Locke and/or Jones. Maybe we can still draft a Qb later in this draft if the cards play out. Either way I don’t expect us to be good. Hopefully next year we can draft or find a franchise QB.

Trading up if they can to take one of the top QBs could also work out….just not expecting it.


I personally would try to trade up for one of the 3 bigtime WR's if I were Douglas. I get that they don't have a lot of picks and I get that they need help on OL but unless we believe that a 40 year Aaron Rodgers coming off Achilles injury can lead this team to anything if they simply protect them better, the Jets would be better off looking to possibly adding a franchise caliber WR for the long run. If they are going for it then yeah sure need probably more important and you can argue an OL is the way to go. But IMO they are still some time before they are serious in which case you go with BPA IMO. Getting an elite Pro Bowl caliber WR would not only benefit Rodgers now but whomever that QB of the future is. Same honestly for the Giants if they stay at 6.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1969 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:47 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
agreed which is why I am suggesting a trade down option.

I do think if we don't go QB...our pick will be a WR if we stay at #6...I'm just giving you an alternative plan. Because I know you don't believe in Daniel Jones (and at this point I think you can't with the injury history). So picking a WR...what is your plan for the QB position?


Depending on the haul trading down can work out. Really depends where they go from there.

For this year I guess it will be Locke and/or Jones. Maybe we can still draft a Qb later in this draft if the cards play out. Either way I don’t expect us to be good. Hopefully next year we can draft or find a franchise QB.

Trading up if they can to take one of the top QBs could also work out….just not expecting it.


If they don't have a good year I'm not sure Daboll and Schoen will still be here. That will factor into this.


They are on the hot seat but that may actually play into them taking a wr. Exciting young wr probably gives them the best chance at selling hope, other than a qb. Any QB they pick at #6 or lower may have to sit a year anyway.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1970 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:52 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Depending on the haul trading down can work out. Really depends where they go from there.

For this year I guess it will be Locke and/or Jones. Maybe we can still draft a Qb later in this draft if the cards play out. Either way I don’t expect us to be good. Hopefully next year we can draft or find a franchise QB.

Trading up if they can to take one of the top QBs could also work out….just not expecting it.


If they don't have a good year I'm not sure Daboll and Schoen will still be here. That will factor into this.


They are on the hot seat but that may actually play into them taking a wr. Exciting young wr probably gives them the best chance at selling hope, other than a qb. Any QB they pick at #6 or lower may have to sit a year anyway.



Maye and JJM will both be sitting because of there age this year.

We dont' have a chance at Caleb or Daniels who are the only two play right away QB's.

I don't know if an exciting young WR will help them if Daniel Jones is hurt and Drew Lock looks like well Drew Lock in his past.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1971 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:59 pm

DOT wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I don't really agree with that take TBH

Read on Twitter
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As much as I think these WR's are super talented (and they are very highly regarded prospects). Whats a good WR with your QB situation still in flux and you so many other holes on the roster. Also good WR do get found all over the place.

Armon-Ra St. Brown just got paid and is the highest paid WR and he was a 4th round pick.


I think that’s a flawed way to look at hits and misses. Daniel Jones is considered a hit and he is a bust.

No disagreement that you can find wrs later in the draft too but that also applies to all positions. You can find QBs and other positions later in draft too.

I would just look at it independently and each player independently. WRs are immensely valuable especially stud ones so if you have a chance to get one could be a great pick.

Here's another way to look at it, still flawed though:

Spoiler:
Top 5 WRs by draft in terms of AV:

2022:
Olave (11)
Pickens (52)
London (8)
Wilson (10)
Watson (34)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
Jameson Williams (12)
Jahan Dotson (16)
Treylon Burks (18)

2021:
Sun God (112)
Chase (5)
Smith (10)
Waddle (6)
Collins (89)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
Toney (20)
Bateman (27)

2020:
Lamb (17)
Jefferson (22)
Aiyuk (25)
Pittman (34)
Higgins (31)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
Ruggs (12)
Jeudy (15)
Reagor (21)

2019:
Brown (51)
Metcalf (64)
Deebo (36)
McLaurin (76)
Brown (25)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
N'Keal Harry (32)

2018:
Moore (24)
Kirk (47)
Ridley (26)
Sutton (40)
Gallup (81)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
none


So that's 5 years of drafts, I think my takeaway would be that while you might not get the best receiver in the class if you're picking top 10, they've been pretty consistently one of the top WRs when taken. Frankly, the last time I would say there were outright busts in the top 10 was 2017 when you had Corey Davis, Mike Williams, and John Ross go, and you can make the case they didn't bust due to talent but because of injuries

Taking a WR high has been pretty safe the past several years, but yeah there are always great WRs later. However, it's more a case of 1 person vs the field, same reason why even though the worst team in the NBA is the most likely of any individual team to get the #1 pick, they're still overall unlikely to get it.


Yea, there are busts for sure and a lot of good players. It doesn’t seem like enough to dissuade me from picking a wr high in the first round if I really like the guy. IMO, the game has changed and really increased the value of elite wrs. We are seeing wrs get picked early and often these days….they are getting paid a ton of money too.

And again, would just evaluate each draft individually
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1972 » by Deeeez Knicks » Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:09 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
If they don't have a good year I'm not sure Daboll and Schoen will still be here. That will factor into this.


They are on the hot seat but that may actually play into them taking a wr. Exciting young wr probably gives them the best chance at selling hope, other than a qb. Any QB they pick at #6 or lower may have to sit a year anyway.



Maye and JJM will both be sitting because of there age this year.

We dont' have a chance at Caleb or Daniels who are the only two play right away QB's.

I don't know if an exciting young WR will help them if Daniel Jones is hurt and Drew Lock looks like well Drew Lock in his past.


I don’t know if any picks will really single handily turn things around at this point. Just have to build piece by piece. I mean, offensively in terms of weapons we have the worst roster in the league. So one wr won’t change it alone. But at least it fills one big hole and can help everyone else on that side of the ball by opening things up. Not expecting miracles….just chip away at needs piece by piece.

But can also see where trading down makes sense…it would just have to be a massive haul and depends what we do with those picks.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1973 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:26 pm

https://www.giants.com/news/2024-nfl-draft-preview-joe-schoen-general-manager-draft-order

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – Joe Schoen believes he has the 2024 NFL Draft figured out. Not all 257 selections. But he knows who’s going first. And as the Giants’ general manager, he has a conviction about what they will do.

The initial prediction he’s willing to go public with. The second, not so much.

“We all know (USC quarterback) Caleb Williams is going number one (to the Chicago Bears), that’s pretty much a done deal,” Schoen said this week. “Feel good about that.”

The Giants will pick sixth in the first round tomorrow night. Unless they don’t, which would happen if they trade up or back. Schoen is not letting his intentions leak outside the team’s draft room at the Quest Diagnostics Training Center.

“There's going to be a lot of smoke this week: ‘This is the Giants’ guy and this is who they’re taking,’” Schoen said. “And nobody knows because there’s one person that does and I’m keeping things pretty close to the vest in terms of what we’re going to do. The more people that know what’s going on, you maybe put them in a predicament you don’t want to put them in where they know the information, it gets out and then you’re looking at them sideways. So, try to keep as much information in house and that’ll continue through Thursday in terms of when I get a feel for what’s going to happen around us.”

Schoen is charged with improving a Giants team that finished 6-11 in 2023. He has added 15 veteran players this offseason and the draft presents another opportunity to continue to reshape the roster. Schoen conceded the team has several positions to upgrade when he said “we’re not one player away, or two” at his news conference last week. The draft is a key component in the never-ending quest to improve the team.

“You feel the weight of the expectations no matter what time of year it is,” Schoen said. “Early in August, you feel the expectations. It’s what keeps you up at night, it’s what motivates you every morning. Obviously, we want to get this thing going and heading in the right direction. When you're picking this high, or even last year when we were at 25, there’s always been expectations that you want to improve the football team and bring in as many good football players as you can, so you see the results on Sundays.”

The Giants currently own one selection in each of the first six rounds of the seven-round draft. In addition to No. 6, they hold the 47th, 70th, 107th, 166th and 183rd picks. The Giants sent their seventh-round choice to the Arizona Cardinals last year for linebacker Isaiah Simmons. They traded their second-round choice (No. 39) to Carolina earlier this offseason in the deal that delivered premier pass rusher Brian Burns. That deal also included a swap of fifth-round selections, with the Giants sending No. 141 to the Panthers and receiving No. 166. The Giants acquired No. 47 when they traded Leonard Williams to Seattle in October.

It's anyone’s guess what will happen with the rest of the top five selections after the Bears – presumably – take Williams. Predictions get even harder further down in the round.

Schoen has worked hard to drop no clues, which of course hasn’t prevented media, draft gurus and fans from voicing their own expectations.

That ever-growing group of, um, experts has apparently settled on four potential options for the Giants: a) stay at No. 6 and select a wide receiver such as Marvin Harrison, Jr., Malik Nabers, or Rome Odunze; b) stay at No. 6 and take a quarterback, perhaps Drake Maye or J.J. McCarthy; c) trade up for a quarterback, a deal that would likely cost them their 2025 first-round choice, and d) trade back and acquire more picks that can be used to address more needs than they can with just six selections.

“You’re going through all the possible scenarios, whether it’s moving up, staying where we are, or moving back,” Schoen said. “There’s a lot of strategy that’s going into it right now.”

Schoen has been checking in with general managers around the league to gauge the potential trade options.

“(The discussions) will pick up as we get closer to Thursday, I think,” he said. “I told all those people, ‘Nothing’s really going to happen before Thursday, so call back.’ We’ll have conversations early in the day on, ‘Hey, if we did do something, what would it look like?’ And typically, you have a few deals in place before the draft starts. That way, when you’re on the clock, everything's been negotiated.”

Schoen consummated trades in each of his first two Giants drafts. In the second round in 2022, he traded twice within a matter of minutes to acquire two extra choices, one in the fourth round and another in the fifth.

In the first round last year, he moved up one spot to No. 24 to select cornerback Deonte Banks. The Giants needed a corner and Mississippi State’s Emmanuel Forbes and Oregon’s Christian Gonzalez went 16-17 to Washington and New England, respectively. Schoen proactively secured Banks.

“I believe he’d have been the first corner taken in this draft,” Schoen said, “but it was a deeper corner draft last year.”

This year, the Giants gave more players first-round grades than they did in the last draft.

“We’ve got 15 players in the first round,” Schoen said. Last year, we had 11. Every year it’s different based on what you’re given. You don’t put them there just for posterity or just a visual for window dressing. These are guys that we think deserve first-round grades. If they’re not up there, you put them in the second. You put them where their grade is. We don’t put 32 guys up there to have 32 guys in the first round.

“I think each year the ebbs and flows of where the depth of the draft is and where you can acquire players, it shifts based on different variables.”

Schoen will be gathering intel right up to the moment the Giants draft their first player, whether it’s sixth or elsewhere.

“I’m going to make a lot of phone calls on Thursday,” he said. “Hopefully, some information will start to trickle out in terms of what’s going to happen in front of us so we can continue to headcount who may be there at six, or what we may be doing, if we're going to move up, back, or stay where we are. So just try to gather as much information as I can, again, talk to the other general managers around the league. If anybody wants to come up to six, get those agreements in place. Things will happen fast once you're on the clock, so you’ve got to be ready.”


pretty candid convo from Schoen.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1974 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:11 pm

If the QB isn't play now ready, we shouldn't be trading up from 6 to get them.

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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1975 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:20 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:If the QB isn't play now ready, we shouldn't be trading up from 6 to get them.

BPA.


I kinda disagree with that. Some QB's need time to sit.

KC traded up for Mahomes and he sat a year

If you see star traits but they need some development (and a couple of the guys are 21 years old) I see no problem to having them sit.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1976 » by Ghetto Gospel » Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:50 pm

DOT wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
I don't really agree with that take TBH

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As much as I think these WR's are super talented (and they are very highly regarded prospects). Whats a good WR with your QB situation still in flux and you so many other holes on the roster. Also good WR do get found all over the place.

Armon-Ra St. Brown just got paid and is the highest paid WR and he was a 4th round pick.


I think that’s a flawed way to look at hits and misses. Daniel Jones is considered a hit and he is a bust.

No disagreement that you can find wrs later in the draft too but that also applies to all positions. You can find QBs and other positions later in draft too.

I would just look at it independently and each player independently. WRs are immensely valuable especially stud ones so if you have a chance to get one could be a great pick.

Here's another way to look at it, still flawed though:

Spoiler:
Top 5 WRs by draft in terms of AV:

2022:
Olave (11)
Pickens (52)
London (8)
Wilson (10)
Watson (34)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
Jameson Williams (12)
Jahan Dotson (16)
Treylon Burks (18)

2021:
Sun God (112)
Chase (5)
Smith (10)
Waddle (6)
Collins (89)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
Toney (20)
Bateman (27)

2020:
Lamb (17)
Jefferson (22)
Aiyuk (25)
Pittman (34)
Higgins (31)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
Ruggs (12)
Jeudy (15)
Reagor (21)

2019:
Brown (51)
Metcalf (64)
Deebo (36)
McLaurin (76)
Brown (25)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
N'Keal Harry (32)

2018:
Moore (24)
Kirk (47)
Ridley (26)
Sutton (40)
Gallup (81)

1st rounders not in the top 5:
none


So that's 5 years of drafts, I think my takeaway would be that while you might not get the best receiver in the class if you're picking top 10, they've been pretty consistently one of the top WRs when taken. Frankly, the last time I would say there were outright busts in the top 10 was 2017 when you had Corey Davis, Mike Williams, and John Ross go, and you can make the case they didn't bust due to talent but because of injuries

Taking a WR high has been pretty safe the past several years, but yeah there are always great WRs later. However, it's more a case of 1 person vs the field, same reason why even though the worst team in the NBA is the most likely of any individual team to get the #1 pick, they're still overall unlikely to get it.


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i like this way of looking at it as well. judging by PFF grade (imperfect) and highest average salaries, most of the best WRs are 1st or 2nd rounders. so we don't necessarily need to get a receiver in round 1, but good receivers tend to go pretty early generally speaking
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1977 » by Ghetto Gospel » Wed Apr 24, 2024 9:55 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
They are on the hot seat but that may actually play into them taking a wr. Exciting young wr probably gives them the best chance at selling hope, other than a qb. Any QB they pick at #6 or lower may have to sit a year anyway.



Maye and JJM will both be sitting because of there age this year.

We dont' have a chance at Caleb or Daniels who are the only two play right away QB's.

I don't know if an exciting young WR will help them if Daniel Jones is hurt and Drew Lock looks like well Drew Lock in his past.


I don’t know if any picks will really single handily turn things around at this point. Just have to build piece by piece. I mean, offensively in terms of weapons we have the worst roster in the league. So one wr won’t change it alone. But at least it fills one big hole and can help everyone else on that side of the ball by opening things up. Not expecting miracles….just chip away at needs piece by piece.

But can also see where trading down makes sense…it would just have to be a massive haul and depends what we do with those picks.


i still like the prospect of trading down to the vikings and letting them have JJM tbh. grab both of their picks and rebuild the whole roster. too many needs
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1978 » by DOT » Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:11 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:If the QB isn't play now ready, we shouldn't be trading up from 6 to get them.

BPA.


I kinda disagree with that. Some QB's need time to sit.

KC traded up for Mahomes and he sat a year

If you see star traits but they need some development (and a couple of the guys are 21 years old) I see no problem to having them sit.

If you think a guy needs to sit, you shouldn't draft him when you have a coach potentially on the hot seat

Cause that's the last move of a desperate coach, throwing in the rookie QB even if he isn't ready

I don't know if Daboll is really on the hot seat, but if y'all start off real bad he's gonna be feeling the pressure, especially if DJ isn't playing well

When's the last time a 1st round QB sat a full year behind a mediocre-bad QB?

You bring up Mahomes, but Alex Smith was a pro bowler the year before they drafted him as well as his rookie year, plus the Chiefs were good so there was no pressure to play him. Lamar Jackson wouldn't've played his rookie year had Flacco not gotten hurt

Both the past 2 years the Titans have had to throw their rookie QB out there because the starter was struggling even though both were more developmental guys. Bailey Zappe got 2 starts his rookie year cause Mac sucked, and the list goes on

The only way y'all draft a QB and then sit him for a full year is if y'all return to 2022 form. Anything less than that and he's gonna come in at some point, so whoever you draft it has to be somebody you think doesn't need a whole year to sit cause it's probably not happening.
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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1979 » by mpharris36 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:11 pm

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Re: OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2 

Post#1980 » by F N 11 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:52 pm

mpharris36 wrote:https://www.giants.com/news/2024-nfl-draft-preview-joe-schoen-general-manager-draft-order

EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – Joe Schoen believes he has the 2024 NFL Draft figured out. Not all 257 selections. But he knows who’s going first. And as the Giants’ general manager, he has a conviction about what they will do.

The initial prediction he’s willing to go public with. The second, not so much.

“We all know (USC quarterback) Caleb Williams is going number one (to the Chicago Bears), that’s pretty much a done deal,” Schoen said this week. “Feel good about that.”

The Giants will pick sixth in the first round tomorrow night. Unless they don’t, which would happen if they trade up or back. Schoen is not letting his intentions leak outside the team’s draft room at the Quest Diagnostics Training Center.

“There's going to be a lot of smoke this week: ‘This is the Giants’ guy and this is who they’re taking,’” Schoen said. “And nobody knows because there’s one person that does and I’m keeping things pretty close to the vest in terms of what we’re going to do. The more people that know what’s going on, you maybe put them in a predicament you don’t want to put them in where they know the information, it gets out and then you’re looking at them sideways. So, try to keep as much information in house and that’ll continue through Thursday in terms of when I get a feel for what’s going to happen around us.”

Schoen is charged with improving a Giants team that finished 6-11 in 2023. He has added 15 veteran players this offseason and the draft presents another opportunity to continue to reshape the roster. Schoen conceded the team has several positions to upgrade when he said “we’re not one player away, or two” at his news conference last week. The draft is a key component in the never-ending quest to improve the team.

“You feel the weight of the expectations no matter what time of year it is,” Schoen said. “Early in August, you feel the expectations. It’s what keeps you up at night, it’s what motivates you every morning. Obviously, we want to get this thing going and heading in the right direction. When you're picking this high, or even last year when we were at 25, there’s always been expectations that you want to improve the football team and bring in as many good football players as you can, so you see the results on Sundays.”

The Giants currently own one selection in each of the first six rounds of the seven-round draft. In addition to No. 6, they hold the 47th, 70th, 107th, 166th and 183rd picks. The Giants sent their seventh-round choice to the Arizona Cardinals last year for linebacker Isaiah Simmons. They traded their second-round choice (No. 39) to Carolina earlier this offseason in the deal that delivered premier pass rusher Brian Burns. That deal also included a swap of fifth-round selections, with the Giants sending No. 141 to the Panthers and receiving No. 166. The Giants acquired No. 47 when they traded Leonard Williams to Seattle in October.

It's anyone’s guess what will happen with the rest of the top five selections after the Bears – presumably – take Williams. Predictions get even harder further down in the round.

Schoen has worked hard to drop no clues, which of course hasn’t prevented media, draft gurus and fans from voicing their own expectations.

That ever-growing group of, um, experts has apparently settled on four potential options for the Giants: a) stay at No. 6 and select a wide receiver such as Marvin Harrison, Jr., Malik Nabers, or Rome Odunze; b) stay at No. 6 and take a quarterback, perhaps Drake Maye or J.J. McCarthy; c) trade up for a quarterback, a deal that would likely cost them their 2025 first-round choice, and d) trade back and acquire more picks that can be used to address more needs than they can with just six selections.

“You’re going through all the possible scenarios, whether it’s moving up, staying where we are, or moving back,” Schoen said. “There’s a lot of strategy that’s going into it right now.”

Schoen has been checking in with general managers around the league to gauge the potential trade options.

“(The discussions) will pick up as we get closer to Thursday, I think,” he said. “I told all those people, ‘Nothing’s really going to happen before Thursday, so call back.’ We’ll have conversations early in the day on, ‘Hey, if we did do something, what would it look like?’ And typically, you have a few deals in place before the draft starts. That way, when you’re on the clock, everything's been negotiated.”

Schoen consummated trades in each of his first two Giants drafts. In the second round in 2022, he traded twice within a matter of minutes to acquire two extra choices, one in the fourth round and another in the fifth.

In the first round last year, he moved up one spot to No. 24 to select cornerback Deonte Banks. The Giants needed a corner and Mississippi State’s Emmanuel Forbes and Oregon’s Christian Gonzalez went 16-17 to Washington and New England, respectively. Schoen proactively secured Banks.

“I believe he’d have been the first corner taken in this draft,” Schoen said, “but it was a deeper corner draft last year.”

This year, the Giants gave more players first-round grades than they did in the last draft.

“We’ve got 15 players in the first round,” Schoen said. Last year, we had 11. Every year it’s different based on what you’re given. You don’t put them there just for posterity or just a visual for window dressing. These are guys that we think deserve first-round grades. If they’re not up there, you put them in the second. You put them where their grade is. We don’t put 32 guys up there to have 32 guys in the first round.

“I think each year the ebbs and flows of where the depth of the draft is and where you can acquire players, it shifts based on different variables.”

Schoen will be gathering intel right up to the moment the Giants draft their first player, whether it’s sixth or elsewhere.

“I’m going to make a lot of phone calls on Thursday,” he said. “Hopefully, some information will start to trickle out in terms of what’s going to happen in front of us so we can continue to headcount who may be there at six, or what we may be doing, if we're going to move up, back, or stay where we are. So just try to gather as much information as I can, again, talk to the other general managers around the league. If anybody wants to come up to six, get those agreements in place. Things will happen fast once you're on the clock, so you’ve got to be ready.”


pretty candid convo from Schoen.

Joe is ready. I see him trading back with a desperate team and making us better. We just don’t have enough as much as I want to draft QB. This is a tough draft because we go another year not knowing if Daniel Jones is good to continue to build around him. It’s a tough spot.
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