Knicks Vs Thunder Post game thread

[NoDopeOnSundays]

a lot of the rj "hate" is because of his usage. after 1 year knox was relegated to a backup role/minutes. frank never got more than 20 minutes. it's year 5 and we're still treating rj like he's some kind of future star with minutes/shots when he's never shown that's who he'll be.

DeJounte would probably be a train wreck but to put this in USG context - he’s at 24 this year and RJ is at 27. One time in Murray’s career was he over 25 and RJ has been comfortably above that number since his rookie season. The production/efficiency isn’t there for someone who is featured as much as he is. His USG is higher than PG-13, KAT, Jamal Murray, AD, Halliburton, Maxey, Kawhi, Jimmy and Franz. He’s had more opportunity than any Knick draft pick in history.

Touches is a better gauge than usage, in terms of touches adding Murray to the starting 5 isn't really possible, even if you removed RJ. He's a ball dominant player in the sense that he needs to be on the ball to be effective. He averages 74.7 touches per game, RJ averages 43.7, finding the touches in the offense for him wouldn't be easy. What they ask for from RJ would require someone who can score on limited touches and that's not Murray.

[god shammgod]

a lot of the rj "hate" is because of his usage. after 1 year knox was relegated to a backup role/minutes. frank never got more than 20 minutes. it's year 5 and we're still treating rj like he's some kind of future star with minutes/shots when he's never shown that's who he'll be.

DeJounte would probably be a train wreck but to put this in USG context - he’s at 24 this year and RJ is at 27. One time in Murray’s career was he over 25 and RJ has been comfortably above that number since his rookie season. The production/efficiency isn’t there for someone who is featured as much as he is. His USG is higher than PG-13, KAT, Jamal Murray, AD, Halliburton, Maxey, Kawhi, Jimmy and Franz. He’s had more opportunity than any Knick draft pick in history.

Touches is a better gauge than usage, in terms of touches adding Murray to the starting 5 isn't really possible, even if you removed RJ. He's a ball dominant player in the sense that he needs to be on the ball to be effective. He averages 74.7 touches per game, RJ averages 43.7, finding the touches in the offense for him wouldn't be easy. What they ask for from RJ would require someone who can score on limited touches and that's not Murray.

i don't want murray at all but he's much more of a willing passer than rj. so he's gonna have more touches. he almost has as many assists a games as brunson while playing next to trae. he only takes 2 more shots a game than rj with 30 more touches.

[god shammgod]

it doesn't make sense at all to start murray next to rj/randle/brunson though. they are 4 guys averaging close to or over 20. are they gonna try to convince him to take a bench role ? why not just pay iq then ? this rumor is one of the more difficult ones to figure out lol

[Chanel Bomber]

a lot of the rj "hate" is because of his usage. after 1 year knox was relegated to a backup role/minutes. frank never got more than 20 minutes. it's year 5 and we're still treating rj like he's some kind of future star with minutes/shots when he's never shown that's who he'll be.

DeJounte would probably be a train wreck but to put this in USG context - he’s at 24 this year and RJ is at 27. One time in Murray’s career was he over 25 and RJ has been comfortably above that number since his rookie season. The production/efficiency isn’t there for someone who is featured as much as he is. His USG is higher than PG-13, KAT, Jamal Murray, AD, Halliburton, Maxey, Kawhi, Jimmy and Franz. He’s had more opportunity than any Knick draft pick in history.

Touches is a better gauge than usage, in terms of touches adding Murray to the starting 5 isn't really possible, even if you removed RJ. He's a ball dominant player in the sense that he needs to be on the ball to be effective. He averages 74.7 touches per game, RJ averages 43.7, finding the touches in the offense for him wouldn't be easy. What they ask for from RJ would require someone who can score on limited touches and that's not Murray.

You're right that usage doesn't equate touches.

RJ ranks high in usage and low in touches because he doesn't move the ball. His touches often end in FGAs.

Murray moves the ball more but he's also much more ball dominant as you alluded to - both in terms of touches and time spent on the ball.

Neither's a good fit on this team, for slightly different reasons.

[god shammgod]

Read on Twitter

the league is funny man. the one team everybody beats on the road. thanks a lot lol

[NoDopeOnSundays]

DeJounte would probably be a train wreck but to put this in USG context - he’s at 24 this year and RJ is at 27. One time in Murray’s career was he over 25 and RJ has been comfortably above that number since his rookie season. The production/efficiency isn’t there for someone who is featured as much as he is. His USG is higher than PG-13, KAT, Jamal Murray, AD, Halliburton, Maxey, Kawhi, Jimmy and Franz. He’s had more opportunity than any Knick draft pick in history.

Touches is a better gauge than usage, in terms of touches adding Murray to the starting 5 isn't really possible, even if you removed RJ. He's a ball dominant player in the sense that he needs to be on the ball to be effective. He averages 74.7 touches per game, RJ averages 43.7, finding the touches in the offense for him wouldn't be easy. What they ask for from RJ would require someone who can score on limited touches and that's not Murray.

i don't want murray at all but he's much more of a willing passer than rj. so he's gonna have more touches. he almost has as many assists a games as brunson while playing next to trae. he only takes 2 more shots a game than rj with 30 more touches.

Murray is just a bad fit with this team, he's a willing passer but the role open on this team is for a shooting/attacker. The guys who would fit right into what they ask from RJ are like Markkanen, Pg13, Trey Murphy etc, guys who score a lot on low amount of touches. Bojan Bogdanovic does that exceedingly well, but he's old.

The point is that if you're gonna trade RJ, look for someone that fits what they're asking, Murray/Brunson/Randle is too many cooks in the kitchenm

[god shammgod]

Touches is a better gauge than usage, in terms of touches adding Murray to the starting 5 isn't really possible, even if you removed RJ. He's a ball dominant player in the sense that he needs to be on the ball to be effective. He averages 74.7 touches per game, RJ averages 43.7, finding the touches in the offense for him wouldn't be easy. What they ask for from RJ would require someone who can score on limited touches and that's not Murray.

i don't want murray at all but he's much more of a willing passer than rj. so he's gonna have more touches. he almost has as many assists a games as brunson while playing next to trae. he only takes 2 more shots a game than rj with 30 more touches.

Murray is just a bad fit with this team, he's a willing passer but the role open on this team is for a shooting/attacker. The guys who would fit right into what they ask from RJ are like Markkanen, Pg13, Trey Murphy etc, guys who score a lot on low amount of touches. Bojan Bogdanovic does that exceedingly well, but he's old.

The point is that if you're gonna trade RJ, look for someone that fits what they're asking, Murray/Brunson/Randle is too many cooks in the kitchenm

like i said a couple posts above, i don't even understand this rumor. and the fact that they supposedly think he's a perfect fit. it's bizarre. unless he's gonna be their new pretty expensive 6th man but why not just pay iq then ?

[god shammgod]

Read on Twitter

when brunson was the best defender in the starting lineup.....maaaan

[NoDopeOnSundays]

i don't want murray at all but he's much more of a willing passer than rj. so he's gonna have more touches. he almost has as many assists a games as brunson while playing next to trae. he only takes 2 more shots a game than rj with 30 more touches.

Murray is just a bad fit with this team, he's a willing passer but the role open on this team is for a shooting/attacker. The guys who would fit right into what they ask from RJ are like Markkanen, Pg13, Trey Murphy etc, guys who score a lot on low amount of touches. Bojan Bogdanovic does that exceedingly well, but he's old.

The point is that if you're gonna trade RJ, look for someone that fits what they're asking, Murray/Brunson/Randle is too many cooks in the kitchenm

like i said a couple posts above, i don't even understand this rumor. and the fact that they supposedly think he's a perfect fit. it's bizarre. unless he's gonna be their new pretty expensive 6th man but why not just pay iq then ?

I understand the move, they're feeling pressure to get somebody and they can sell this as a all-star acquisition. Unlike LaVine he can defend which is also a reason. They probably know they're going to lose IQ so they can also soften the blow by getting another guard, we had been linked to forwards and now all of a sudden they want another PG?

[3toheadmelo]

Read on Twitter

when brunson was the best defender in the starting lineup.....maaaan

Grimes held opponents to 0-3 FG

Jerry west continues to win!

[Buttah304]

DeJounte would probably be a train wreck but to put this in USG context - he’s at 24 this year and RJ is at 27. One time in Murray’s career was he over 25 and RJ has been comfortably above that number since his rookie season. The production/efficiency isn’t there for someone who is featured as much as he is. His USG is higher than PG-13, KAT, Jamal Murray, AD, Halliburton, Maxey, Kawhi, Jimmy and Franz. He’s had more opportunity than any Knick draft pick in history.

Touches is a better gauge than usage, in terms of touches adding Murray to the starting 5 isn't really possible, even if you removed RJ. He's a ball dominant player in the sense that he needs to be on the ball to be effective. He averages 74.7 touches per game, RJ averages 43.7, finding the touches in the offense for him wouldn't be easy. What they ask for from RJ would require someone who can score on limited touches and that's not Murray.

You're right that usage doesn't equate touches.

RJ ranks high in usage and low in touches because he doesn't move the ball. His touches often end in FGAs.

Murray moves the ball more but he's also much more ball dominant as you alluded to - both in terms of touches and time spent on the ball.

Neither's a good fit on this team, for slightly different reasons.

Correct - I am a big fan of touches per game but also the average time of possession. Admittedly RJ only holds on to the ball for 1.9 seconds as opposed to Randle at 4, and Brunson at 7.9. But these stats also equal the the test for me.

RJ isn’t the type of player who’s going to get into his bag and dance a little before getting the shot he wants. He’s a bull in a china-shop, head down North South running back who wants to get below the charity stripe. But in doing so he’s not only refusing to pass on his drives (putrid 26% similar to Kuzma and Mathurin) his assist % for a player over 29min is close to Jerami Grant (a guy most of crap on). The result is RJ finding himself in dark waters surrounded by multiple interior defenders. This is why he’s always hovered around 53-55% finishing in the restricted area and why he gets blocked so often. It also doesn’t help that he was unfairly blessed with below average athleticism and first step explosion.

If RJ had rigorously worked on the development of a mid range game it would do him wonders. Unfortunately for the Knicks he’s taken 408 mid range jumpers in his tenure and made 130 at 31.8%.

[god shammgod]

Murray is just a bad fit with this team, he's a willing passer but the role open on this team is for a shooting/attacker. The guys who would fit right into what they ask from RJ are like Markkanen, Pg13, Trey Murphy etc, guys who score a lot on low amount of touches. Bojan Bogdanovic does that exceedingly well, but he's old.

The point is that if you're gonna trade RJ, look for someone that fits what they're asking, Murray/Brunson/Randle is too many cooks in the kitchenm

like i said a couple posts above, i don't even understand this rumor. and the fact that they supposedly think he's a perfect fit. it's bizarre. unless he's gonna be their new pretty expensive 6th man but why not just pay iq then ?

I understand the move, they're feeling pressure to get somebody and they can sell this as a all-star acquisition. Unlike LaVine he can defend which is also a reason. They probably know they're going to lose IQ so they can also soften the blow by getting another guard, we had been linked to forwards and now all of a sudden they want another PG?

maybe they have a follow up move lined up for a 3 & d wing. something like rj to atl with a pick/s for murray and iq with a pick/s for og. but then what's left to trade ? is that team contending ? they waited all this time to settle for that ?

[Buttah304]

like i said a couple posts above, i don't even understand this rumor. and the fact that they supposedly think he's a perfect fit. it's bizarre. unless he's gonna be their new pretty expensive 6th man but why not just pay iq then ?

I understand the move, they're feeling pressure to get somebody and they can sell this as a all-star acquisition. Unlike LaVine he can defend which is also a reason. They probably know they're going to lose IQ so they can also soften the blow by getting another guard, we had been linked to forwards and now all of a sudden they want another PG?

maybe they have a follow up move lined up for a 3 & d wing. something like rj to atl with a pick/s for murray and iq with a pick/s for og. but then what's left to trade ? is that team contending ? they waited all this time to settle for that ?

In their eyes Brunson-DeJounte-OG-Randle isn’t settling when we openly asked Knicks fans to support this beauty

[Chanel Bomber]

Touches is a better gauge than usage, in terms of touches adding Murray to the starting 5 isn't really possible, even if you removed RJ. He's a ball dominant player in the sense that he needs to be on the ball to be effective. He averages 74.7 touches per game, RJ averages 43.7, finding the touches in the offense for him wouldn't be easy. What they ask for from RJ would require someone who can score on limited touches and that's not Murray.

You're right that usage doesn't equate touches.

RJ ranks high in usage and low in touches because he doesn't move the ball. His touches often end in FGAs.

Murray moves the ball more but he's also much more ball dominant as you alluded to - both in terms of touches and time spent on the ball.

Neither's a good fit on this team, for slightly different reasons.

Correct - I am a big fan of touches per game but also the average time of possession. Admittedly RJ only holds on to the ball for 1.9 seconds as opposed to Randle at 4, and Brunson at 7.9. But these stats also equal the the test for me.

RJ isn’t the type of player who’s going to get into his bag and dance a little before getting the shot he wants. He’s a bull in a china-shop, head down North South running back who wants to get below the charity stripe. But in doing so he’s not only refusing to pass on his drives (putrid 26% similar to Kuzma and Mathurin) his assist % for a player over 29min is close to Jerami Grant (a guy most of crap on). The result is RJ finding himself in dark waters surrounded by multiple interior defenders. This is why he’s always hovered around 53-55% finishing in the restricted area and why he gets blocked so often. It also doesn’t help that he was unfairly blessed with below average athleticism and first step explosion.

If RJ had rigorously worked on the development of a mid range game it would do him wonders. Unfortunately for the Knicks he’s taken 408 mid range jumpers in his tenure and made 130 at 31.8%.

Yeah that he spends very little time on the ball is an indictment against his skill level more than anything else.

And the high usage relative to his touches is a testament to his unwillingness to move the ball (i.e., his selfishness).

The concern for me with Dejounte is that his touches and his tendency to hold the ball for longer would take the ball away from Brunson and Randle even further and affect them negatively. I'm not a fan of the fit at all.

But yeah I think RJ's a bench player. Absolutely horrific from midrange, one of the worst shooters from 2-point range, below-average 3-point shooter with a percentage that's cratering. He's pretty good from the line but the volume of drives (with its high rate of unsuccessful outcomes) it requires for him to get there doesn't justify it.

I think he should be an energy wing who comes off the bench and pushes the ball in transition, similar to Hart. He's really good at that. RJ wants to be a Julius Randle but he really should aspire to be Josh Hart. A Josh Hart who's a liability on defense.

[3toheadmelo]

Piston fans want rj let’s make this happen

Read on Twitter

[Buttah304]

You're right that usage doesn't equate touches.

RJ ranks high in usage and low in touches because he doesn't move the ball. His touches often end in FGAs.

Murray moves the ball more but he's also much more ball dominant as you alluded to - both in terms of touches and time spent on the ball.

Neither's a good fit on this team, for slightly different reasons.

Correct - I am a big fan of touches per game but also the average time of possession. Admittedly RJ only holds on to the ball for 1.9 seconds as opposed to Randle at 4, and Brunson at 7.9. But these stats also equal the the test for me.

RJ isn’t the type of player who’s going to get into his bag and dance a little before getting the shot he wants. He’s a bull in a china-shop, head down North South running back who wants to get below the charity stripe. But in doing so he’s not only refusing to pass on his drives (putrid 26% similar to Kuzma and Mathurin) his assist % for a player over 29min is close to Jerami Grant (a guy most of crap on). The result is RJ finding himself in dark waters surrounded by multiple interior defenders. This is why he’s always hovered around 53-55% finishing in the restricted area and why he gets blocked so often. It also doesn’t help that he was unfairly blessed with below average athleticism and first step explosion.

If RJ had rigorously worked on the development of a mid range game it would do him wonders. Unfortunately for the Knicks he’s taken 408 mid range jumpers in his tenure and made 130 at 31.8%.

Yeah that he spends very little time on the ball is an indictment against his skill level more than anything else.

And the high usage relative to his touches is a testament to his unwillingness to move the ball (i.e., his selfishness).

The concern for me with Dejounte is that his touches and his tendency to hold the ball for longer would take the ball away from Brunson and Randle even further and affect them negatively. I'm not a fan of the fit at all.

But yeah I think RJ's a bench player. Absolutely horrific from midrange, one of the worst shooters from 2-point range, below-average 3-point shooter with a percentage that's cratering. He's pretty good from the line but the volume of drives (with its high rate of unsuccessful outcomes) it requires for him to get there doesn't justify it.

I think he should be an energy wing who comes off the bench and pushes the ball in transition, similar to Hart. He's really good at that. RJ wants to be a Julius Randle but he really should aspire to be Josh Hart. A Josh Hart who's a liability on defense.

When RJ looks back on his career he’ll probably be disappointed to learn that he spent more time coming off the bench than being in the SL. We’ve given him 5 years and I guess you can sell me on his next stop granting him another 2 seasons starting. Ideally he’s the 1st or 2nd player coming off the bench. That’s not a knock on him at all. As you alluded to Josh Hart embraces this role and it’s where IQ has found his home whether he wanted to live there or not.

[Iron Mantis]

Never sell low.

Bad asset management.

[Clyde_Style]

i don't want murray at all but he's much more of a willing passer than rj. so he's gonna have more touches. he almost has as many assists a games as brunson while playing next to trae. he only takes 2 more shots a game than rj with 30 more touches.

Murray is just a bad fit with this team, he's a willing passer but the role open on this team is for a shooting/attacker. The guys who would fit right into what they ask from RJ are like Markkanen, Pg13, Trey Murphy etc, guys who score a lot on low amount of touches. Bojan Bogdanovic does that exceedingly well, but he's old.

The point is that if you're gonna trade RJ, look for someone that fits what they're asking, Murray/Brunson/Randle is too many cooks in the kitchenm

like i said a couple posts above, i don't even understand this rumor. and the fact that they supposedly think he's a perfect fit. it's bizarre. unless he's gonna be their new pretty expensive 6th man but why not just pay iq then ?

I'm hoping these rumors did not come from the inside and that they are not meant to reflect a desire to move IQ for Murray

It would make no sense

I've gone full IQ at this point. Like you always say Sham: Talent is Everything

IQ is the second most significant talent on this team IMO. I rate him after Brunson as our most effective scoring weapon and ahead of Randle due to his defense

Any conversations from now about how to fix the roster should be based on what works best with Brunson and IQ

Letting him go now would be fckd up. It would tell me the internal politics and priorities of the organization are not truly professional and are NOT based on what will make this team most successful

[Chanel Bomber]

Selling high on RJ was last summer. That was the whole point. That ship isn't coming back.

Cut your losses before it's too late.

[Buttah304]

Selling high on RJ was last summer. That was the whole point. That ship isn't coming back.

Cut your losses before it's too late.

Kings held on to Tyreke Evans too long and had no interest in resigning him as an RFA. They got Vasquez and 2 seconds. Awesome.