How close are the Knicks to Contention?

[cgf]

there aren't many better #1 options in the playoffs that Brunson...he has proven that the last two years.

Yep, and I still don't think he's good enough to get away with Bridges as your #3 unless you have a Quickley/Poole on your bench who is your real 3rd creator, or your #2 is just as good as Brunson in the playoffs.

Randle going to get a ton of usage...that is who he is...we will run him in the post a lot and that is our secondary offense...for him to make the right play out of the post to find shooters.

Yes. That's why I think it's important that any third star we brought in was a good movement shooter who could play off Brunson/Randle, as well as beat up on 2nd units when they rest.

But unless we find out that a healthy Randle is even better than Brunson in the playoffs when his PG isn't Elfrid Payton, we're going to need a 3rd guy who we can give the ball and expect to create a bucket for us when teams sell out to stop Brunson/Randle.

[3toheadmelo]

According to the advanced metrics, Mitchell's actually a better defender this season than all of Murray / Booker / Lavine / Brunson / Randle. All of those guys are varying stages of negatives while Spida is a neutral...granted he's been defending a lot more ones with Garland out and previously he was just as bad as Booker / Lavine / Brunson / Randle, but he's never been as bad as Murray.

But still interesting to see Spida starting to remember that in college he had a defensive reputation. I think I'm warming to the idea that Mitchell-Brunson could be like a rich man's Quickley-Brunson...although I still have concerns that he's too stationary offensively when he's off the ball.

yes donovan mitchell has become better on defense. last year he made strives and he's building on it. mitchell is my #1 target at the moment. but the cavs dont want to move him so hes probably unrealistic

I'm not sure he's enough to be our final move even if I'm warming to it / trying to talk myself into him. Even last year he wasn't much better than Randle & co., and he only hit neutral this season. So I have to wonder how much of that improvement this year has come from Garland being out, which wouldn't really help us if the idea is to play him & Brunson together.

Which is why I loop back to cost. For that final piece you have to go all out, but for that penultimate move, you have to make sure you can still afford that final move. So for me it all comes down to how much more Mitchell would cost than other options...like if they'd take DDV, Fournier, our 24 FRP, and all of our protected picks, I'd be a lot more excited than if we had to give up multiple future unprotected FRPs + Grimes.

from people that watched the cavs on a daily basis, they said his defense was pretty solid last year
https://kingjamesgospel.com/2023/08/27/donovan-mitchell-build-defense-last-season-cavs/

there's risk of using donovan mitchell as your final piece but he is most likely going to be the only guy that will be available in the off season

[mpharris36]

no way yall thirsty for this man

Read on Twitter

he's having a bad stretch, im not judging anyone on a 10 game sample size...if anything maybe we can get him cheaper

not sure what that is suppose to mean (well I do know what you are trying to get at) but it makes no sense since I never made any proclamation off a 10 games...

Correct which is why I think 10 game sample sizes is pretty much useless when it comes to advance stats...there just isn't much there. Not enough data points to weed out the overly skewed data.

direct quote from me regarding one of those arguments with you.

[3toheadmelo]

but most of the big time scorers are also sh*tty defenders...sure Spida gives us another key cog on offense but Brunson/Mitchell backcourt is food defensively especially for the celtics they would be putting Brown and Tatum is P&R to get the Brunson Mitchell mismatch all day.

I'm not even sure what scorer you are referencing. I know you have been interested in Mitchell. Who else is out there that you think puts us over the top?

donovan mitchell isn't that bad on defense anymore. you can live with him at the 2. cavs were still a top 5 defense last year with a garland and brunson back court.

you wait for donovan mitchell in the off season. or someone else of that tier who becomes available. the og trade allows us to be patient now and we can build up deuce's and grimes value in the mean time.

I'm still not sold on the brunson/mitchell fit...I watched last post season and donovan mitchell didn't play a lick of defense vs us. I am a big mitchell fan when he's a #1 type option and you can supplement him with defenders. But I am not sold on that fit long term with Brunson...

i don't recall donovan mitchell getting destroyed on defense in the post season. hes not the best fit but i'll still take him. rather go all in on him versus a role player like mikal (who isnt even available)

[Deeeez Knicks]

The front office has done a fantastic job. This does feel like the closest we have been since the 90s considering we still have assets to make significant moves. With the right move we could be there as a contender

[cgf]

yes donovan mitchell has become better on defense. last year he made strives and he's building on it. mitchell is my #1 target at the moment. but the cavs dont want to move him so hes probably unrealistic

I'm not sure he's enough to be our final move even if I'm warming to it / trying to talk myself into him. Even last year he wasn't much better than Randle & co., and he only hit neutral this season. So I have to wonder how much of that improvement this year has come from Garland being out, which wouldn't really help us if the idea is to play him & Brunson together.

Which is why I loop back to cost. For that final piece you have to go all out, but for that penultimate move, you have to make sure you can still afford that final move. So for me it all comes down to how much more Mitchell would cost than other options...like if they'd take DDV, Fournier, our 24 FRP, and all of our protected picks, I'd be a lot more excited than if we had to give up multiple future unprotected FRPs + Grimes.

from people that watched the cavs on a daily basis, they said his defense was pretty solid last year
https://kingjamesgospel.com/2023/08/27/donovan-mitchell-build-defense-last-season-cavs/

there's risk of using donovan mitchell as your final piece but he is most likely going to be the only guy that will be available in the off season

I'm warming to it. But I still think we're going to need to wait to get that final piece unless someone like Embiid / Doncic / Booker asks out after a disappointing playoff run. Which is why my focus would be the acquisition cost.

[Clyde_Style]

I think Mikal absolutely puts us on par with BOS and MIL...yes...or at least very very close.

Especially because it also really improves our defense...and instead of being a #1 option Mikal goes to being a #3...he will have to shoulder less burden on shot creation and focus on scoring and defense.

imo i disagree that this puts us on par with boston. boston has 3 guys who score 20+ effortlessly. and they have jrue holiday who can score 20 on any given night.. same for derrick white. boston has way too much firepower. i just think we need one more big time scorer if we want to be in the same conversation as them.

but most of the big time scorers are also sh*tty defenders...sure Spida gives us another key cog on offense but Brunson/Mitchell backcourt is food defensively especially for the celtics they would be putting Brown and Tatum is P&R to get the Brunson Mitchell mismatch all day.

I'm not even sure what scorer you are referencing. I know you have been interested in Mitchell. Who else is out there that you think puts us over the top?

Guys just don't want to hear it.

Two 6 footers in your backcourt will put all of the defensive pressure on OG and iHart and some on Randle if he chooses to accept it.

You need one guy in the backcourt who can man up at the POA and slow down the set-ups, otherwise your frontline will get worn out in the playoffs overcompensating for the lack of backcourt size

For some reason the current massive shift in scoring differentials is not registering with some guys and they're still approaching roster construction as purely a math exercise. That does not work in the playoffs which is a grind and requires defensive stoppers in your backcourt

[3toheadmelo]

I'm not sure he's enough to be our final move even if I'm warming to it / trying to talk myself into him. Even last year he wasn't much better than Randle & co., and he only hit neutral this season. So I have to wonder how much of that improvement this year has come from Garland being out, which wouldn't really help us if the idea is to play him & Brunson together.

Which is why I loop back to cost. For that final piece you have to go all out, but for that penultimate move, you have to make sure you can still afford that final move. So for me it all comes down to how much more Mitchell would cost than other options...like if they'd take DDV, Fournier, our 24 FRP, and all of our protected picks, I'd be a lot more excited than if we had to give up multiple future unprotected FRPs + Grimes.

from people that watched the cavs on a daily basis, they said his defense was pretty solid last year
https://kingjamesgospel.com/2023/08/27/donovan-mitchell-build-defense-last-season-cavs/

there's risk of using donovan mitchell as your final piece but he is most likely going to be the only guy that will be available in the off season

I'm warming to it. But I still think we're going to need to wait to get that final piece unless someone like Embiid / Doncic / Booker asks out after a disappointing playoff run. Which is why my focus would be the acquisition cost.

well donovan mitchell would be for the off season since the cavs arent going to trade him for the rest of the season. so by then maybe someone else asks out too. think we should just be patient until the off season unless you can get dejounte murray for extremely cheap, but i don't see that happening.

[Clyde_Style]

The front office has done a fantastic job. This does feel like the closest we have been since the 90s considering we still have assets to make significant moves. With the right move we could be there as a contender

Barring any significant injuries we're in contention already. We do need frontcourt depth to shore up our starters of course, but as of right now we're contenders if no key player goes down

[cgf]

from people that watched the cavs on a daily basis, they said his defense was pretty solid last year
https://kingjamesgospel.com/2023/08/27/donovan-mitchell-build-defense-last-season-cavs/

there's risk of using donovan mitchell as your final piece but he is most likely going to be the only guy that will be available in the off season

I'm warming to it. But I still think we're going to need to wait to get that final piece unless someone like Embiid / Doncic / Booker asks out after a disappointing playoff run. Which is why my focus would be the acquisition cost.

well donovan mitchell would be for the off season since the cavs arent going to trade him for the rest of the season. so by then maybe someone else asks out too. think we should just be patient until the off season unless you can get dejounte murray for extremely cheap, but i don't see that happening.

Yeah that's how I feel...only I'd be looking to get Lavine or Wiggins instead of Murray. Realistically speaking, I'd just want something like Olnyk+Clarkson at the deadline...unless we get good news when Mitch is re-evaluated.

[Clyde_Style]

but most of the big time scorers are also sh*tty defenders...sure Spida gives us another key cog on offense but Brunson/Mitchell backcourt is food defensively especially for the celtics they would be putting Brown and Tatum is P&R to get the Brunson Mitchell mismatch all day.

I'm not even sure what scorer you are referencing. I know you have been interested in Mitchell. Who else is out there that you think puts us over the top?

donovan mitchell isn't that bad on defense anymore. you can live with him at the 2. cavs were still a top 5 defense last year with a garland and brunson back court.

you wait for donovan mitchell in the off season. or someone else of that tier who becomes available. the og trade allows us to be patient now and we can build up deuce's and grimes value in the mean time.

I'm still not sold on the brunson/mitchell fit...I watched last post season and donovan mitchell didn't play a lick of defense vs us. I am a big mitchell fan when he's a #1 type option and you can supplement him with defenders. But I am not sold on that fit long term with Brunson...

Defense aside, DM vs. us in last year's playoffs never put his team on his back

He is the same basic prototype as Brunson even if they move entirely differently and DM is more explosive

I think this forum has got its head up its butt with the obsession over DM

WE ALREADY HAVE DM IN BRUNSON and AFAIK Brunson is probably the better player

What's the point of duplicating Brunson with DM?

Again, guys talking everything like its a video game where you just add in DM's points which is ridiculous

Furthermore, Brunson has outplayed DM whenever he has faced off with him in the post-season. WTF do we need DM?

We need roster construction improvements not video game math

[3toheadmelo]

I'm warming to it. But I still think we're going to need to wait to get that final piece unless someone like Embiid / Doncic / Booker asks out after a disappointing playoff run. Which is why my focus would be the acquisition cost.

well donovan mitchell would be for the off season since the cavs arent going to trade him for the rest of the season. so by then maybe someone else asks out too. think we should just be patient until the off season unless you can get dejounte murray for extremely cheap, but i don't see that happening.

Yeah that's how I feel...only I'd be looking to get Lavine or Wiggins instead of Murray. Realistically speaking, I'd just want something like Olnyk+Clarkson at the deadline...unless we get good news when Mitch is re-evaluated.

tbh it feels like thats what the knicks are going to do anyways. i think they're only gonna get small upgrades for now

[Ursusamericanus]

DMitch has brand/star power but that's it. He's not the right fit next to Brunson if we want to win a title. We need a shooting guard with more height and length than him (and defensive tenacity).

[3toheadmelo]

Read on Twitter

[Deeeez Knicks]

The front office has done a fantastic job. This does feel like the closest we have been since the 90s considering we still have assets to make significant moves. With the right move we could be there as a contender

Barring any significant injuries we're in contention already. We do need frontcourt depth to shore up our starters of course, but as of right now we're contenders if no key player goes down

I hope your right. If everything goes perfect.... We stay healthy, Mitch comes back, Grimes and Deuce continue to play better and breakout, regular season Randle shows up in the playoffs, Donte continues his torid stretch.... Maybe we have a shot to make some noise.

Think we may need a little more work to get there though. would love nothing more then to win it all

[Ursusamericanus]

well donovan mitchell would be for the off season since the cavs arent going to trade him for the rest of the season. so by then maybe someone else asks out too. think we should just be patient until the off season unless you can get dejounte murray for extremely cheap, but i don't see that happening.

Yeah that's how I feel...only I'd be looking to get Lavine or Wiggins instead of Murray. Realistically speaking, I'd just want something like Olnyk+Clarkson at the deadline...unless we get good news when Mitch is re-evaluated.

tbh it feels like thats what the knicks are going to do anyways. i think they're only gonna get small upgrades for now

That's all we need right now. If an ideal target who fits well is available this offseason, then maybe the FO will go for them. It's obvious that Leon is cautious and calculated, and I think that's a very good thing.

[sol537]

Mitch Rob for Olynyk and parts

Fournier + 1st for Brogdon

There is no reason to wait until next season to fix our weaknesses. We can become a true contender this season. No reason to wait especially when the cost is so reasonable potentially.

[cgf]

donovan mitchell isn't that bad on defense anymore. you can live with him at the 2. cavs were still a top 5 defense last year with a garland and brunson back court.

you wait for donovan mitchell in the off season. or someone else of that tier who becomes available. the og trade allows us to be patient now and we can build up deuce's and grimes value in the mean time.

I'm still not sold on the brunson/mitchell fit...I watched last post season and donovan mitchell didn't play a lick of defense vs us. I am a big mitchell fan when he's a #1 type option and you can supplement him with defenders. But I am not sold on that fit long term with Brunson...

Defense aside, DM vs. us in last year's playoffs never put his team on his back

He is the same basic prototype as Brunson even if they move entirely differently and DM is more explosive

I think this forum has got its head up its butt with the obsession over DM

WE ALREADY HAVE DM IN BRUNSON and AFAIK Brunson is probably the better player

What's the point of duplicating Brunson with DM?

Again, guys talking everything like its a video game where you just add in DM's points which is ridiculous

Furthermore, Brunson has outplayed DM whenever he has faced off with him in the post-season. WTF do we need DM?

We need roster construction improvements not video game math

We already have Brunson, but in his time here this team has statistically been at its best when it had both Brunson & Quickley on the court together. That's not a video game exercise, that's just what the #s are after thousands of minutes with those two on the team. So they idea would be to recreate that, only with someone even more athletic and explosive than Quickley.

I have my concerns so the price would need to be right, but I don't think you're being fair to the idea with the way you're presenting it. This isn't just video game math, this is looking at both what has worked for us (IQ+JB) and what teams that go deep in the playoffs need.

...and it's really hard to win in the playoffs when you only have two high level creators that teams need to focus on stopping. It's really hard to win if you can't get stops too, but playoff defenses clamping down makes it even more important to have guys who can create when the transition buckets, cheap fouls, and lazy rotations dry up.

It's really hard to win a ring and the teams that have done so recently have generally been really good on both sides of the ball. The ones who have won while only being decent on one side of the ball, have been the ones who had unreal offenses. IIRC the warriors are the last team to have won a ring without a top 10 offense, and they had Steph.

[cgf]

Yeah that's how I feel...only I'd be looking to get Lavine or Wiggins instead of Murray. Realistically speaking, I'd just want something like Olnyk+Clarkson at the deadline...unless we get good news when Mitch is re-evaluated.

tbh it feels like thats what the knicks are going to do anyways. i think they're only gonna get small upgrades for now

That's all we need right now. If an ideal target who fits well is available this offseason, then maybe the FO will go for them. It's obvious that Leon is cautious and calculated, and I think that's a very good thing.

I love how patient this FO has been, but they have also tried to be opportunistic when given the chance to pounce on a great value...which is why I wonder about guys like Lavine / Wiggins / Murray who could conceivably be had for a lot fewer assets than we'd be able to get for them after a successful playoff run in NY, if we did get the chance to make our "kawhi trade" this summer.

[cgf]

well donovan mitchell would be for the off season since the cavs arent going to trade him for the rest of the season. so by then maybe someone else asks out too. think we should just be patient until the off season unless you can get dejounte murray for extremely cheap, but i don't see that happening.

Yeah that's how I feel...only I'd be looking to get Lavine or Wiggins instead of Murray. Realistically speaking, I'd just want something like Olnyk+Clarkson at the deadline...unless we get good news when Mitch is re-evaluated.

tbh it feels like thats what the knicks are going to do anyways. i think they're only gonna get small upgrades for now

Yeah. I think they'll do their due diligence on all of the bigger names to see if they get the chance to steal some value, but ultimately I'm just expecting something small to give the bench more punch and bolster our big man depth unless we get really good news when Mitch is re-evaluated in a few weeks.