Woj: Knicks trade for Alec Burks and Bojan Bogdanovich

[Gravy]

I'm not hip with the uptick here. Why are the vocal few dogging the trade with a hurt roster?

There needs to be a sticky at the top of each page reminding everyone that three starters are out and Bojan is not supposed to be in this role.

[cgf]

The bigger reality is that message board heroes love hoping for their draft picks and now feel butthurt by the adults in the FO confirming that Grimes had no future here. Bogey and Burks are easy escape goats.

IMO Thibs gave up on Grimes probably the minute Grimes spoke out in the media. And once Thibs is done with you he’s done with you.

Bogey and Burks are a solution to the problem created by the OG trade, which was compounded by OG getting injured. At worst, it’s a reasonable gamble with very limited downside. At best, it could be the push needed to sneak into the ECF. Time will tell.

One thing’s for damn sure, Grimes wasn’t preventing this 5 game slide with our entire front court hurt.

Lol Bojan and Alec havent looked like a solution to anything but losing more. The least they can do is make shots and hold the line against benches, and they cant even do that.

You guys realize them just being on the court has hurt the team right? Bojan has always been a negative player, even in his Jazz/Pacer days, according to advanced stats like RAPTOR and EPM. There are two sides of the court. And we already know about Alec, who is only older now. Im not only basing this on the last 5 games.

Im far from a Grimes fanboy, as Donte is clearly better, but he was a positive overall because of his defense. Meanwhile Fournier has actually outplayed Bojan and Alec since the trade. Just because Thibs is a petty bastard doesnt mean Evan is completely done. He could have given us 15 mpg off the bench if he got to stay in rhythm, but he went from starting to the gulag.

Let’s see how it goes though, I hope they shut me up, it’s early, blah blah blah yada yada.

Ok so you’re saying the team is better off playing Charlie Brown and Budget Obi.

I mean, ok. That’s certainly one way to see it. Seems radically negative to me and like you’re blaming the wrong guys for the current losing streak, which (again) Grimes wasn’t preventing, especially since he’d permanently entered Thibs’ inescapable doghouse.

It was a move to add rotation depth. You’re claiming Bogey and Burks are net negatives so we’d be better off with scrubs or just running the starters 40 mpg. To which I counter, our scrubs are worse. And the only thing running the starters 40 mpg accomplishes is getting them injured.

Grimes was escaping Thibs' "inescapable doghouse". His more assertive play had him regularly getting over 20mpg again. No need to exaggerate things to defend the FO choosing to use Grimes instead of a FRP.

[cgmw]

Lol Bojan and Alec havent looked like a solution to anything but losing more. The least they can do is make shots and hold the line against benches, and they cant even do that.

You guys realize them just being on the court has hurt the team right? Bojan has always been a negative player, even in his Jazz/Pacer days, according to advanced stats like RAPTOR and EPM. There are two sides of the court. And we already know about Alec, who is only older now. Im not only basing this on the last 5 games.

Im far from a Grimes fanboy, as Donte is clearly better, but he was a positive overall because of his defense. Meanwhile Fournier has actually outplayed Bojan and Alec since the trade. Just because Thibs is a petty bastard doesnt mean Evan is completely done. He could have given us 15 mpg off the bench if he got to stay in rhythm, but he went from starting to the gulag.

Let’s see how it goes though, I hope they shut me up, it’s early, blah blah blah yada yada.

Ok so you’re saying the team is better off playing Charlie Brown and Budget Obi.

I mean, ok. That’s certainly one way to see it. Seems radically negative to me and like you’re blaming the wrong guys for the current losing streak, which (again) Grimes wasn’t preventing, especially since he’d permanently entered Thibs’ inescapable doghouse.

It was a move to add rotation depth. You’re claiming Bogey and Burks are net negatives so we’d be better off with scrubs or just running the starters 40 mpg. To which I counter, our scrubs are worse. And the only thing running the starters 40 mpg accomplishes is getting them injured.

Grimes was escaping Thibs' "inescapable doghouse". His more assertive play had him regularly getting over 20mpg again. No need to exaggerate things to defend the FO choosing to use Grimes instead of a FRP.

I have about as much knowledge of the inside of Thibs' head as you do that the Pistons would have accepted a FRP instead of Grimes.

[JayTWill]

I'm not hip with the uptick here. Why are the vocal few dogging the trade with a hurt roster?

There needs to be a sticky at the top of each page reminding everyone that three starters are out and Bojan is not supposed to be in this role.

What is his role supposed to be? That is what confuses me about this trade if Bojan and Burks can't be helpful now. I don't think any of the players that are out due to injury are replaceable with the players that were brought in. If we do not have health we are not going anywhere. When the team was healthy the starting lineup was fine. We had no issue with guys playing off of Brunson and Randle. The biggest weakness were the non-Brunson minutes and lack of creation ability in the second unit. Why do we have to wait until the starters get back to see some improvement in the non-Brunson bench minutes?

In January the rotation seemed to be heading to the starters plus a bench rotation of McBride/Grimes/Hart/(OG)/Precious.
I guess Thibs could run out a similar 9 man rotation at full strength with McBride or Burks/Hart/Bogy/(OG)/Mitch or Precious but that would require someone in that unit to be a consistent offensive initiator. McBride and Burks have not proven they could do that. Can Bogy? Maybe swapping out Grimes will make that unit more effective. I'm just curious to what you think about it.

It may not matter much in the playoffs since Brunson will likely be on the floor for most minutes but the combination of Brunson and Bogy on the floor together possibly with another average to poor defender concerns me a bit. OG and our bigs can be incredible defensively but there is a breaking point to what they are able to cover up.

[seren]

I'm not hip with the uptick here. Why are the vocal few dogging the trade with a hurt roster?

There needs to be a sticky at the top of each page reminding everyone that three starters are out and Bojan is not supposed to be in this role.

Interesting. What you are saying is the FO made the trade with no idea of how long the recovery time would be for Randle, Mitchell and OG?

And I am curious what you think Bojan’s role is right now. What have you seen on the floor that is atypical?

[cgmw]

I'm not hip with the uptick here. Why are the vocal few dogging the trade with a hurt roster?

There needs to be a sticky at the top of each page reminding everyone that three starters are out and Bojan is not supposed to be in this role.

Interesting. What you are saying is the FO made the trade with no idea of how long the recovery time would be for Randle, Mitchell and OG?

And I am curious what you think Bojan’s role is right now. What have you seen on the floor that is atypical?

You're one of the smartest dudes on here which is why this comment is just so bizarre.

You really don't think that losing 25ppg from Randle with All-NBA defense from OG and Mitch (and iHart) doesn't affect the role of each and every player (including Bogey)?

Bogey is a known commodity. Dude is a professional scorer who can shoot lights out and give you minutes at either the three or four. It's not some great mystery and neither is the fact that 60% of our starters are out so IDK why fans are acting dumb here.

We won't know what we have as a team until later in the season if/when our core guys get healthy.

[cgf]

Ok so you’re saying the team is better off playing Charlie Brown and Budget Obi.

I mean, ok. That’s certainly one way to see it. Seems radically negative to me and like you’re blaming the wrong guys for the current losing streak, which (again) Grimes wasn’t preventing, especially since he’d permanently entered Thibs’ inescapable doghouse.

It was a move to add rotation depth. You’re claiming Bogey and Burks are net negatives so we’d be better off with scrubs or just running the starters 40 mpg. To which I counter, our scrubs are worse. And the only thing running the starters 40 mpg accomplishes is getting them injured.

Grimes was escaping Thibs' "inescapable doghouse". His more assertive play had him regularly getting over 20mpg again. No need to exaggerate things to defend the FO choosing to use Grimes instead of a FRP.

I have about as much knowledge of the inside of Thibs' head as you do that the Pistons would have accepted a FRP instead of Grimes.

True, but in Burks 6 games as a Knick this season he's played 14, 19, 13, 30, 17, 22 minutes, for 115 total. In Grimes final 6 games as a knick he played 20, 32, 24, 23, 20, 20 minutes, for a total of 139 minutes. So it looks like this depth that got brought in is deeper in the doghouse than Grimes was

[seren]

There needs to be a sticky at the top of each page reminding everyone that three starters are out and Bojan is not supposed to be in this role.

Interesting. What you are saying is the FO made the trade with no idea of how long the recovery time would be for Randle, Mitchell and OG?

And I am curious what you think Bojan’s role is right now. What have you seen on the floor that is atypical?

You're one of the smartest dudes on here which is why this comment is just so bizarre.

You really don't think that losing 25ppg from Randle with All-NBA defense from OG and Mitch (and iHart) doesn't affect the role of each and every player (including Bogey)?

Bogey is a known commodity. Dude is a professional scorer who can shoot lights out and give you minutes at either the three or four. It's not some great mystery and neither is the fact that 60% of our starters are out so IDK why fans are acting dumb here.

We won't know what we have as a team until later in the season if/when our core guys get healthy.

That still doesn’t answer the question. What role is Bogey playing right now that he would normally not be playing? Dude is coming from the bench and playing the lowest minutes of his career. He is playing mostly SF with couple of minutes here and there at PF. Are you expecting him to even have a lesser role? Are you thinking he is too much of a playmaker now? Guys just need to be clear what they mean.

[cgmw]

Interesting. What you are saying is the FO made the trade with no idea of how long the recovery time would be for Randle, Mitchell and OG?

And I am curious what you think Bojan’s role is right now. What have you seen on the floor that is atypical?

You're one of the smartest dudes on here which is why this comment is just so bizarre.

You really don't think that losing 25ppg from Randle with All-NBA defense from OG and Mitch (and iHart) doesn't affect the role of each and every player (including Bogey)?

Bogey is a known commodity. Dude is a professional scorer who can shoot lights out and give you minutes at either the three or four. It's not some great mystery and neither is the fact that 60% of our starters are out so IDK why fans are acting dumb here.

We won't know what we have as a team until later in the season if/when our core guys get healthy.

That still doesn’t answer the question. What role is Bogey playing right now that he would normally not be playing? Dude is coming from the bench and playing the lowest minutes of his career. He is playing mostly SF with couple of minutes here and there at PF. Are you expecting him to even have a lesser role? Are you thinking he is too much of a playmaker now? Guys just need to be clear what they mean.

I’m expecting each and every player to play a different role when Randle, OG, and/or Mitch are back.

Watching Grimes with the fully healthy unit, it sure looked clear as day that his role was diminishing and that he couldn’t be relied upon in the crunch.

I don’t have a crystal ball so I can’t answer your question (spoiler: nobody can), but there seems to be plenty of track record on Bogey to feel optimism that he’ll be able to play the Thibs release-valve shooter as well as spot mins as the Thibs iso creator, especially with two all-world defenders in Mitch and OG masking his weaknesses. Time will tell.

[cgmw]

Grimes was escaping Thibs' "inescapable doghouse". His more assertive play had him regularly getting over 20mpg again. No need to exaggerate things to defend the FO choosing to use Grimes instead of a FRP.

I have about as much knowledge of the inside of Thibs' head as you do that the Pistons would have accepted a FRP instead of Grimes.

True, but in Burks 6 games as a Knick this season he's played 14, 19, 13, 30, 17, 22 minutes, for 115 total. In Grimes final 6 games as a knick he played 20, 32, 24, 23, 20, 20 minutes, for a total of 139 minutes. So it looks like this depth that got brought in is deeper in the doghouse than Grimes was

Seriously?

I’m not even a big fan of this trade but you guys are being ridiculous. Honestly can’t tell if you’re just trolling.

Last I checked it was Grimes in exchange for two rotation players, not just Burks. No bullsh*t, I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to say by comparing just Grimes’ minutes to just Burks, who was the second player we received, not the only player.

If you want an apples to apples minutes comparison try Grimes + Fournier (0 mpg) to Bogey + Burks.

[JayTWill]

After a bit of tinkering with the bench unit Thibs seemed to settle on a rotation of:
Starters - Brunson/DDV/OG/Randle/iHart
Bench - McBride/Grimes/Hart/(OG)/Achiuwa

Here are the points scored/points allowed per 100 possessions for those 2 line ups

Starters - 128.3/111.2_______+17.1 (374 possessions)
Bench - 104.0/84.7________+19.3 (75 possessions)

The starters dominated teams offensively and the bench dominated defensively. The bench unit was not pretty but it was effective. There are other line ups that transition between the starters and the bench but I'm curious how the new additions will fit if the team is fully healthy. They definitely don't fit the defensive identity of the previous bench unit and the starting unit isn't lacking scoring.

[Fat Kat]

Guess how many points Grimes and Fournier combined for tonight



-14 plus/minus for Grimes. -5 for Evan. In a win

[Gravy]

I'm not hip with the uptick here. Why are the vocal few dogging the trade with a hurt roster?

There needs to be a sticky at the top of each page reminding everyone that three starters are out and Bojan is not supposed to be in this role.

What is his role supposed to be? That is what confuses me about this trade if Bojan and Burks can't be helpful now. I don't think any of the players that are out due to injury are replaceable with the players that were brought in. If we do not have health we are not going anywhere. When the team was healthy the starting lineup was fine. We had no issue with guys playing off of Brunson and Randle. The biggest weakness were the non-Brunson minutes and lack of creation ability in the second unit. Why do we have to wait until the starters get back to see some improvement in the non-Brunson bench minutes?

In January the rotation seemed to be heading to the starters plus a bench rotation of McBride/Grimes/Hart/(OG)/Precious.
I guess Thibs could run out a similar 9 man rotation at full strength with McBride or Burks/Hart/Bogy/(OG)/Mitch or Precious but that would require someone in that unit to be a consistent offensive initiator. McBride and Burks have not proven they could do that. Can Bogy? Maybe swapping out Grimes will make that unit more effective. I'm just curious to what you think about it.

It may not matter much in the playoffs since Brunson will likely be on the floor for most minutes but the combination of Brunson and Bogy on the floor together possibly with another average to poor defender concerns me a bit. OG and our bigs can be incredible defensively but there is a breaking point to what they are able to cover up.

The team is much more dangerous when Bojan is the 5th or 6th scorer instead of the 2nd scorer like he was tonight. When the team is healthy you can hopefully cover for him defensively next to Deuce and Ihart/Precious. The starters are the entire reason the non Brunson bench minutes work or not. Its like taking Tatum and Brown off the Celtics and wondering why KP isnt making them a contender.

[Wildcat]

The team is much more dangerous when Bojan is the 5th or 6th scorer instead of the 2nd scorer like he was tonight. When the team is healthy you can hopefully cover for him defensively next to Deuce and Ihart/Precious. The starters are the entire reason the non Brunson bench minutes work or not. Its like taking Tatum and Brown off the Celtics and wondering why KP isnt making them a contender.

Just to add to that, I haven't looked at the statistics and going purely on the eye test, but Bojan isn't exactly a scrub out there on defense, either. Certainly not grade A or anything but I'm not looking at the L's right now and putting it on him or Burks (and I'm not a big Burks fan, either).

The Knicks are going to take on the chin. They got hit with the injury bug. It happens. They just have to play .500 ball until everyone's back. I'm still eyeing Randle's return for the Detroit game at the end of the month. OG evaluation should be today or tomorrow. We could probably see him back maybe on the 8th or 14th for the West Coast trip.

[god shammgod]

The team is much more dangerous when Bojan is the 5th or 6th scorer instead of the 2nd scorer like he was tonight. When the team is healthy you can hopefully cover for him defensively next to Deuce and Ihart/Precious. The starters are the entire reason the non Brunson bench minutes work or not. Its like taking Tatum and Brown off the Celtics and wondering why KP isnt making them a contender.

Just to add to that, I haven't looked at the statistics and going purely on the eye test, but Bojan isn't exactly a scrub out there on defense, either. Certainly not grade A or anything but I'm not looking at the L's right now and putting it on him or Burks (and I'm not a big Burks fan, either).

The Knicks are going to take on the chin. They got hit with the injury bug. It happens. They just have to play .500 ball until everyone's back. I'm still eyeing Randle's return for the Detroit game at the end of the month. OG evaluation should be today or tomorrow. We could probably see him back maybe on the 8th or 14th for the West Coast trip.

no, he is. he definitely is.

[cgf]

The team is much more dangerous when Bojan is the 5th or 6th scorer instead of the 2nd scorer like he was tonight. When the team is healthy you can hopefully cover for him defensively next to Deuce and Ihart/Precious. The starters are the entire reason the non Brunson bench minutes work or not. Its like taking Tatum and Brown off the Celtics and wondering why KP isnt making them a contender.

Just to add to that, I haven't looked at the statistics and going purely on the eye test, but Bojan isn't exactly a scrub out there on defense, either. Certainly not grade A or anything but I'm not looking at the L's right now and putting it on him or Burks (and I'm not a big Burks fan, either).

The Knicks are going to take on the chin. They got hit with the injury bug. It happens. They just have to play .500 ball until everyone's back. I'm still eyeing Randle's return for the Detroit game at the end of the month. OG evaluation should be today or tomorrow. We could probably see him back maybe on the 8th or 14th for the West Coast trip.

no, he is. he definitely is.

Yeah his metrics are almost impressively bad.

[KNICKS007]

The team is much more dangerous when Bojan is the 5th or 6th scorer instead of the 2nd scorer like he was tonight. When the team is healthy you can hopefully cover for him defensively next to Deuce and Ihart/Precious. The starters are the entire reason the non Brunson bench minutes work or not. Its like taking Tatum and Brown off the Celtics and wondering why KP isnt making them a contender.

Just to add to that, I haven't looked at the statistics and going purely on the eye test, but Bojan isn't exactly a scrub out there on defense, either. Certainly not grade A or anything but I'm not looking at the L's right now and putting it on him or Burks (and I'm not a big Burks fan, either).

The Knicks are going to take on the chin. They got hit with the injury bug. It happens. They just have to play .500 ball until everyone's back. I'm still eyeing Randle's return for the Detroit game at the end of the month. OG evaluation should be today or tomorrow. We could probably see him back maybe on the 8th or 14th for the West Coast trip.

no, he is. he definitely is.

Nobody but Knicks fans thinks Boj is a horrible defender

And it's always hilarious that some Knick fans think every player we get is suppose to be a 2 way player, like the NBA is flooded with those types, but will always make an exception for mitch and is non existing offense.

[Wildcat]

Just to add to that, I haven't looked at the statistics and going purely on the eye test, but Bojan isn't exactly a scrub out there on defense, either. Certainly not grade A or anything but I'm not looking at the L's right now and putting it on him or Burks (and I'm not a big Burks fan, either).

The Knicks are going to take on the chin. They got hit with the injury bug. It happens. They just have to play .500 ball until everyone's back. I'm still eyeing Randle's return for the Detroit game at the end of the month. OG evaluation should be today or tomorrow. We could probably see him back maybe on the 8th or 14th for the West Coast trip.

no, he is. he definitely is.

Yeah his metrics are almost impressively bad.

The team overall has been bad on D.

[Fury]

Did anyone mention Patty Mills?

[cgf]

no, he is. he definitely is.

Yeah his metrics are almost impressively bad.

The team overall has been bad on D.

True, but it's been a lot worse with him on the court than without him...as was Detroit...