Official Summer 2024 Magic Free Agency and Trade Ideas Thread 5.0

[RookieStar]

Any of you wants to go the trade and transaction board? There is an interesting discussion there..

Cade Ausar Sarr(???)
For
Franz Black #18

Franz is a winner and Ausar can not even crack the rotation in the worst team in the league. Also this is a weak draft.

I think its Franz and Cade more than Franz and Ausar.... Ausar and Black though has IMO favors Black which offset the general population view that Cade > Franz ( which i dont agree )

[Knightro]

Anthony Black got zero meaningful point guard reps last year. Jett Howard got zero meaningful reps period.

In what scenario is Black not going to struggle if he has to play a more traditional on-ball role next year? When it comes to actually playing point guard, he's basically still a rookie.

In what scenario is Howard not going to struggle period next year? He is, for all intents and purposes, going to be a rookie again next year too.

How are they going to level up again with two rookies playing much bigger roles than they did last year?

[eyriq]

Anthony Black got zero meaningful point guard reps last year. Jett Howard got zero meaningful reps period.

In what scenario is Black not going to struggle if he has to play a more traditional on-ball role next year? When it comes to actually playing point guard, he's basically still a rookie.

In what scenario is Howard not going to struggle period next year? He is, for all intents and purposes, going to be a rookie again next year too.

How are they going to level up again with two rookies playing much bigger roles than they did last year?

They'll be sophomores and probably really good, don't worry

[Knightro]

I will push back on one thing though.

I don't think that's how things work in terms of development at all. Whatever the hell the Spurs did with Jeremy Sochan isn't a net positive experience... he's simply just not going to get that sort of on-ball reps again as a point guard ever. He didn't gain a +2 stat attribute where he's going to be used as Draymond because of this year. That **** looked awful.

Chet didn't stumble out of the gates because he lost important reps his rookie year and missed out on baptism by fire. Simply being in NBA facilities and getting used to the schedule and grind required to upkeep your body surely helped, but nothing about the lack of anything on court worked against him this year.

Same works for Anthony Black, because this isn't 2004, and we're not in a league where a point guard dominates possessions Steve Nash or Chris Paul style, he's going to share a piece of the responsibility with two 6'10 forwards that present on-ball mismatches.

Whether it's substantial, Oladipo and Suggs level devotion to running the offense through them sort of reps here, or simply just "wanting him involved more", the former is a direct threat to on court performance and record, and the latter has no empirical data that it would make him 5% better next year just because he's touching the ball more.

Again, strictly talking about on-ball work for AB and his ability to function as a point guard in the league, not his defense, not his headiness, his improved three pointer.

I think working with coaches, sparring in practice with our defenders, working on moves in the offseason, learning to channel his aggression, gaining strength and agility by doing specific workouts and exercises, having private workouts with teammates and trainers all add way more seasoning to whatever stock he had boiling than involving him slightly more.

Because again, I would agree more if we're talking about Oladipo level devotion to AB as a lead guard, but that flips the entire process of the team for a season, no matter what the results are, and we usually know how those results go. What you're realistically arguing is just him being involved a little bit more, which I think is an extremely moot point when it comes to how he plays next year if his role was increased.

I think there's a happy medium between what we're both arguing here.

According to NBA.com, Anthony Black initiated 46 pick and rolls as the ball handler and had 11 isolations for the entire season. That's is essentially nothing.

I'm not saying they needing to stick him on the basketball and say "screw it, figure it out" like he was Steve Nash - but this guy is purportedly a point guard and they literally used him like he was Gary Harris.

And if the main argument back is "well any reps he'd have taken would have taken reps away from Paolo and Franz and that would have made the team worse!" then why was Black picked in the first place?

They could have taken Dick or Hawkins or Lively or Cason or Hendricks or whoever else. Instead they took a PG and played him like he was a 3&D wing only.

It's like they basically just blindly picked the player they felt was the BPA without any sort of plan from a player development or roster management perspective.

[Knightro]

They'll be sophomores and probably really good, don't worry

You saying it doesn't make it true

Most players get better at basketball by playing basketball.

[pinoynurse]

Anthony Black got zero meaningful point guard reps last year. Jett Howard got zero meaningful reps period.

In what scenario is Black not going to struggle if he has to play a more traditional on-ball role next year? When it comes to actually playing point guard, he's basically still a rookie.

In what scenario is Howard not going to struggle period next year? He is, for all intents and purposes, going to be a rookie again next year too.

How are they going to level up again with two rookies playing much bigger roles than they did last year?

They'll be sophomores and probably really good, don't worry

speak it into existence lol. truth be told tho, point guards take the longest to develop so i am keeping my expectations low for AB next year. I generally feel that by year 3 is when PGs start to have meaningful minutes.

knightro is right tho, because we are in a win now situation, AB is behind in terms pg on ball reps. I anticipate that early on in his career, we will utilize him more like Lonzo Ball, a connecting wing, 3-d player who keeps the offense humming with his swing passing, until he is tenured enough in the league to become a PG.

[SOUL]

I'm not saying they needing to stick him on the basketball and say "screw it, figure it out" like he was Steve Nash - but this guy is purportedly a point guard and they literally used him like he was Gary Harris.

And if the main argument back is "well any reps he'd have taken would have taken reps away from Paolo and Franz and that would have made the team worse!" then why was Black picked in the first place?

They could have taken Dick or Hawkins or Lively or Cason or Hendricks or whoever else. Instead they took a PG and played him like he was a 3&D wing only.

It's like they basically just blindly picked the player they felt was the BPA without any sort of plan from a player development or roster management perspective.

True, but to be fair, this is also why I advocated for Lively before the draft. People were mad he was a "backup pick in the lottery" but I legit felt he had the best chance to play consistent minutes with Isaac's injuries, Moe being eh at times, and Goga not really having a role.

I think they legit thought this draft was luxury, Okeke style without the injuries.

Question, do you think through the season they started to see him a bit more like Ingles than a lead guard and have a plan in place for some Iggy-Ingles sort of bench initiator?

There are some interesting "small-ball" lineups that involve two guards, Black, Franz and Paolo at C.

Secondly, I do also think that sometimes it's just simple. Coaches and FO are more privy to anything we see, and they may have felt that development is occurring in other areas, he's not good enough in on-ball creation yet, so for now, it'll have to wait.

I know we all want to maximize every part of the roster, but sometimes it's just not possible. Maybe they wanted to maximize Franz and Paolo the most this year and everything else fell in line, and now next year other priorities can be addressed.

[Knightro]

I think they legit thought this draft was luxury, Okeke style without the injuries.

If they actually thought this, that is unacceptable, right?

The Magic only won 34 games last year. On what planet are two lotto picks luxuries when you won 34 games the year before and clearly have 3-4 bad players in your rotation?

Question, do you think through the season they started to see him a bit more like Ingles than a lead guard and have a plan in place for some Iggy-Ingles sort of bench initiator?

Maybe! But they didn't use him in that way either.

Not only did he not do any primary creation, he didn't do any secondary creation on top of that.

Quite literally in almost every single one of his non-garbage time possessions he'd just stand in the corner and wait for a pass. And if the pass came and he was completely unguarded, he's take a shot. If he was contested at all, he'd desperately move the ball to his closest teammate in a panic.

[SOUL]

The Magic only won 34 games last year. On what planet are two lotto picks luxuries when you won 34 games the year before and clearly have 3-4 bad players in your rotation?

It's undeniably clear we have major upgrades needed, but this goes for every team ousted. If we're being completely real, outside of the AB-Fultz swap, I do think trying to play every young guy just isn't as feasible as people think if we're also trying to improve W-L. If we agree the team was ahead of schedule this year (it was), and that we gained valuable experience this year via the playoffs (we did), and that Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Mose, etc achieved some social cachet and respect around the league that we never dreamed of in the Vuc-AG-Fournier era, that to me is valuable in ways that most people don't consider when talking about improvement and options moving forward.

If we're to serve Jett and Black right, but push the brakes on Paolo-Franz-Suggs a bit in terms of the reins being held a bit more loosely as far as responsibility, or limiting the win ceiling of them + bench squad, you are also failing a side that isn't Jett-Black.

Do you think if they could pick to do both, they wouldn't? If there was no risk involved, it does seem like a simple choice.

I think at that point we also have to discuss player autonomy though. Have we seen anyone else used in a way, outside of usage variances, that is completely different than what they're comfortable with at this part of their career? Is Black maybe just more green in certain areas than people think?

[RookieStar]

This might be unpopular to a lot of you but i think AB path forward is more Jingles type playmaker rather than a Guard playmaker...

[eyriq]

This might be unpopular to a lot of you but i think AB path forward is more Jingles type playmaker rather than a Guard playmaker...

It's just a waste to draft a big PG and develop them into an undersized SF

[eyriq]

What I expect:

Suggs|Klay|Franz|Paolo|WCJ
AB|Cole|Jett|JI|Moritz

[RichCollab]

I’m all in on adding Monk and Gary Trent Jr.

Move on from Fultz, Harris, and Ingles.

[RookieStar]

This might be unpopular to a lot of you but i think AB path forward is more Jingles type playmaker rather than a Guard playmaker...

It's just a waste to draft a big PG and develop them into an undersized SF

Naaaah. Not saying he should be a SF... also 6'7 for a SF is the average i think. We are just spoiled because we put 6'11 Franz, 6'9 Joe and 6'8 Houstan there. Lol even Paolo sometimes.

[Knightro]

What I expect:

Suggs|Klay|Franz|Paolo|WCJ
AB|Cole|Jett|JI|Moritz

This feels pretty realistic to me. Although until he’s not, I expect Cole to be on the basketball with the 2nd unit.

Unfortunately, I don’t think this team is significantly better, and maybe worse, than this year’s group.

[eyriq]

What I expect:

Suggs|Klay|Franz|Paolo|WCJ
AB|Cole|Jett|JI|Moritz

This feels pretty realistic to me. Although until he’s not, I expect Cole to be on the basketball with the 2nd unit.

Unfortunately, I don’t think this team is significantly better, and maybe worse, than this year’s group.

Growth factors:

Suggs/Franz/Paolo development
Klay/AB/Jett replacing Harris/Ingles/Fultz
Don't really see any internal headwinds.

[BCS]

I am going to sleep now to keep dreaming of the unlikely scenario of a DJM 3 or 4 team trade for WCJ, Black, Cole, and whatever picks are necessary, hopefully not this year pick and we draft either Carter or Ware. Then sign Hartenstein and Monk.

DJM/Suggs/Franz/Paolo/Hart
Monk/Jett/Isaac/Mo

You still have Carter or Ware, and with so many shooters available, you should be able to sign one of them at a discount, maybe Trent jr or Hield.


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[drsd]

Are we going to ignore his playmaking because we didn't see it his rookie year?

My point, which is also rtue for Howard, is that their respective capacities cannot be assessed, yet. We do know Black can play emergency minutes backup PG. We have no idea if Howard is even capable of stepping onto an NBA floor.

That's not a criticism. It is just on objective fact that the two 2023 guards are unknowns.

[pepe1991]

I don't think it's about "development" it's just about facing with new evidence and comming to conclusion that Black isn't PG, like 99,99% of "big PGs" aren't.

If you look around a league and go in past, big PGs simply don't work for one reason or another.

You can go to Ben Simmons (1# pick, Lebron comparisons) and his inability to score off pick&roll in any meaningful way but cuts made him predictable and pushed him out of PG position.

Josh Giddey , pretty much same problem, he is also bad on defense so he makes things even worst.

Livingston- guy was actually one of worst nba busts. Injury turned him into sympathetic figure and his Warriors years give second perspective on his career, but flushing 4th pick and passing on 3 allstars simply makes him one of worst busts.

Lonzo Ball - inability to play pick&roll and having no mid range game at one point moved him from PG position all together, going to Bulls he still couldn't run traditional pick&roll, and once again, like Livingston, now people remember him in nostalgic ways due his injuries. 6 players drafted after him turned into allstars. SIX. Including way more traditional PG - Fox.

MCW- worst ROY winner ever?

So who in modern era actually worked as tall PG ? Lebron, Harden and Luka. That's pretty much whole list. Top 2 player of all time and some of most talented players in past 30 years.


And it's not like NBA teams didn't try to find new , tall PGs, they just simply never worked. There is list of attemps i can remember:
Evan Turner (top 3 pick)
Tony Wroten
Bonga
Killian Hayes (top 5 pick)
Ty Jerome
Delon Wright


Thing is, PG position is most competitive position out there, guys who get to nba are near perfect in terms of skills, there is no single position in basketball with more talent but PG. You look at Jamal Murray, that guy is so damn skilled, and yet he isn't even top 5 player at his position, despite fact he ,on some nights is actually most skilled ( offensisve) player on court.

[RookieStar]

I don't think it's about "development" it's just about facing with new evidence and comming to conclusion that Black isn't PG, like 99,99% of "big PGs" aren't.

If you look around a league and go in past, big PGs simply don't work for one reason or another.

You can go to Ben Simmons (1# pick, Lebron comparisons) and his inability to score off pick&roll in any meaningful way but cuts made him predictable and pushed him out of PG position.

Josh Giddey , pretty much same problem, he is also bad on defense so he makes things even worst.

Livingston- guy was actually one of worst nba busts. Injury turned him into sympathetic figure and his Warriors years give second perspective on his career, but flushing 4th pick and passing on 3 allstars simply makes him one of worst busts.

Lonzo Ball - inability to play pick&roll and having no mid range game at one point moved him from PG position all together, going to Bulls he still couldn't run traditional pick&roll, and once again, like Livingston, now people remember him in nostalgic ways due his injuries. 6 players drafted after him turned into allstars. SIX. Including way more traditional PG - Fox.

MCW- worst ROY winner ever?

So who in modern era actually worked as tall PG ? Lebron, Harden and Luka. That's pretty much whole list. Top 2 player of all time and some of most talented players in past 30 years.


And it's not like NBA teams didn't try to find new , tall PGs, they just simply never worked. There is list of attemps i can remember:
Evan Turner (top 3 pick)
Tony Wroten
Bonga
Killian Hayes (top 5 pick)
Ty Jerome
Delon Wright


Thing is, PG position is most competitive position out there, guys who get to nba are near perfect in terms of skills, there is no single position in basketball with more talent but PG. You look at Jamal Murray, that guy is so damn skilled, and yet he isn't even top 5 player at his position, despite fact he ,on some nights is actually most skilled ( offensisve) player on court.

Theres actually 2 more on your list. Lamelo and Cade. If injuru bugs didnt hit them... who knows.