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Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#461 » by eyriq » Mon May 13, 2024 6:03 pm

Knightro wrote:
eyriq wrote:Why would I block you? You're a good poster. I just felt like making a point about highlighting Wallace when AB is right there staring you in the face. Yeah, Wallace looks good, AB is right there though. Higher free throw rate to boot, promising a higher offensive ceiling.


But you're obviously smart enough to know that sample sizes mean everything on top 10 lists like these. The gap between 2nd and 7th could be huge.

Like it's great that Black is 7th on the list instead of not on it at all, but the gap between 2nd and 7th in this case is pretty massive.
Cason was projected as a 3&D PG out of college. Seeing Cason on that list should surprise no one. Seeing AB on that list? Surprising! Celebratory! A really promising signal for AB.

But we can glaze Cason and OKC instead
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#462 » by OrlChamps2030 » Mon May 13, 2024 6:09 pm

eyriq wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
eyriq wrote:I've been glazing our guy since we drafted him. Because he's a Magic. Because the data backs up his potential. Because our backcourt is terrible and we need some rising stars back there to compliment Paolo, Franz, and Suggs.

Glazing guys we passed on when our guy is on the same damn list is a decision.


I’m a huge Magic fan - I also just like basketball in general. I like talking ball, betting on ball, visiting other teams boards, I try to remain objective.

My post wasn’t due to us passing on Wallace - notice how I didn’t mention Hawkins, Dick, GG, or Sasser. It has everything to do with the guy having a good rookie season on both ends of the court for a team that won 57 games.

You’re not going to find me glazing just because a guy is wearing a Magic Jersey. Respect is earned, not given.. I show tons of love to Paolo, Franz, and Suggs. Feel free to block me or head to r/OrlandoMagic if you want a circlejerk. Hopefully your Elfrid Payton t shirt isn’t collecting too much dust these days.
Why would I block you? You're a good poster. I just felt like making a point about highlighting Wallace when AB is right there staring you in the face. Yeah, Wallace looks good, AB is right there though. Higher free throw rate to boot, promising a higher offensive ceiling.


Sorry dude maybe I overreacted (taking a break from weed.. started yesterday :-? ) I think the term glazing triggered me.. such a sus word lol

But you’re right AB deserves a Pat on the back for being on there. My initial thought was sample size likely isn’t there for AB, which is why I didn’t mention it, but you’re right I’d rather AB be on that list than not at all.

AB’s college FTR was my favorite part about him on offense as a prospect, hopefully we can see more of it next season
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#463 » by Knightro » Mon May 13, 2024 6:12 pm

eyriq wrote:
Knightro wrote:
eyriq wrote:Why would I block you? You're a good poster. I just felt like making a point about highlighting Wallace when AB is right there staring you in the face. Yeah, Wallace looks good, AB is right there though. Higher free throw rate to boot, promising a higher offensive ceiling.


But you're obviously smart enough to know that sample sizes mean everything on top 10 lists like these. The gap between 2nd and 7th could be huge.

Like it's great that Black is 7th on the list instead of not on it at all, but the gap between 2nd and 7th in this case is pretty massive.
Cason was projected as a 3&D PG out of college. Seeing Cason on that list should surprise no one. Seeing AB in that list? Surprising! Celebratory! A really promising signal for AB.

But we can glaze Cason and OKC instead


Couldn't the argument could be made, considering the Magic actually used AB purely as a 3&D guy as a rookie, that if they Orlando had absolutely no plans to use Black as a on-ball shot creator at all, that they would have been better served picking someone who projected out to be more comfortable as a 3&D guy.

I get that you like him. I like him too. But it feels like every discussion sort of turns into some sort of "AB didn't fall flat on his face at this one specific thing we thought he might suck at, clearly he's got all-star potential!" and I'm just not sure that's a fair representation of his rookie year.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#464 » by eyriq » Mon May 13, 2024 6:14 pm

OrlChamps2030 wrote:
eyriq wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
I’m a huge Magic fan - I also just like basketball in general. I like talking ball, betting on ball, visiting other teams boards, I try to remain objective.

My post wasn’t due to us passing on Wallace - notice how I didn’t mention Hawkins, Dick, GG, or Sasser. It has everything to do with the guy having a good rookie season on both ends of the court for a team that won 57 games.

You’re not going to find me glazing just because a guy is wearing a Magic Jersey. Respect is earned, not given.. I show tons of love to Paolo, Franz, and Suggs. Feel free to block me or head to r/OrlandoMagic if you want a circlejerk. Hopefully your Elfrid Payton t shirt isn’t collecting too much dust these days.
Why would I block you? You're a good poster. I just felt like making a point about highlighting Wallace when AB is right there staring you in the face. Yeah, Wallace looks good, AB is right there though. Higher free throw rate to boot, promising a higher offensive ceiling.


Sorry dude maybe I overreacted (taking a break from weed.. started yesterday :-? ) I think the term glazing triggered me.. such a sus word lol

But you’re right AB deserves a Pat on the back for being on there. My initial thought was sample size likely isn’t there for AB, which is why I didn’t mention it, but you’re right I’d rather AB be on that list than not at all.

AB’s college FTR was my favorite part about him on offense as a prospect, hopefully we can see more of it next season


I've just added glazing to my repertoire, trial period haha. All good!
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#465 » by eyriq » Mon May 13, 2024 6:30 pm

Knightro wrote:Couldn't the argument could be made, considering the Magic actually used AB purely as a 3&D guy as a rookie, that if they Orlando had absolutely no plans to use Black as a on-ball shot creator at all, that they would have been better served picking someone who projected out to be more comfortable as a 3&D guy.

I get that you like him. I like him too. But it feels like every discussion sort of turns into some sort of "AB didn't fall flat on his face at this one specific thing we thought he might suck at, clearly he's got all-star potential!" and I'm just not sure that's a fair representation of his rookie year.


Yeah, that would be fair.

I do wonder what the vision is for him. As prospects AB and Cason graded out pretty similarly as I recall.

Looking at their rookie seasons, Cason actually has a higher block and steal rate (per 100) to go along with better shooting volume and efficiency. AB has better assist, rebounding, and free throw rates. The size advantage for AB is also a plus.

If you wanted 3&D you draft Cason, no real question there.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#466 » by basketballRob » Mon May 13, 2024 6:47 pm

eyriq wrote:
Knightro wrote:Couldn't the argument could be made, considering the Magic actually used AB purely as a 3&D guy as a rookie, that if they Orlando had absolutely no plans to use Black as a on-ball shot creator at all, that they would have been better served picking someone who projected out to be more comfortable as a 3&D guy.

I get that you like him. I like him too. But it feels like every discussion sort of turns into some sort of "AB didn't fall flat on his face at this one specific thing we thought he might suck at, clearly he's got all-star potential!" and I'm just not sure that's a fair representation of his rookie year.


Yeah, that would be fair.

I do wonder what the vision is for him. As prospects AB and Cason graded out pretty similarly as I recall.

Looking at their rookie seasons, Cason actually has a higher block and steal rate per 100) to go along with better shooting volume and efficiency. AB has better assist, rebounding, and free throw rates. The size advantage for AB is also a plus.

If you wanted 3&D you draft Cason, no real question there.
I think AB and Cason were both used in small usage roles due to their age.

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#467 » by Skybox » Mon May 13, 2024 8:26 pm

eyriq wrote:
Knightro wrote:Couldn't the argument could be made, considering the Magic actually used AB purely as a 3&D guy as a rookie, that if they Orlando had absolutely no plans to use Black as a on-ball shot creator at all, that they would have been better served picking someone who projected out to be more comfortable as a 3&D guy.

I get that you like him. I like him too. But it feels like every discussion sort of turns into some sort of "AB didn't fall flat on his face at this one specific thing we thought he might suck at, clearly he's got all-star potential!" and I'm just not sure that's a fair representation of his rookie year.


Yeah, that would be fair.

I do wonder what the vision is for him. As prospects AB and Cason graded out pretty similarly as I recall.

Looking at their rookie seasons, Cason actually has a higher block and steal rate (per 100) to go along with better shooting volume and efficiency. AB has better assist, rebounding, and free throw rates. The size advantage for AB is also a plus.

If you wanted 3&D you draft Cason, no real question there.


I bristle when you suggest that AB is our starting PG, but I do believe there's an impactful role. Listening to JJ talk with Naz Reid about NAW and McDaniels being two "dobermans" and just putting on Joker smiles while locking down full-court...NAW was kind of off to a disappointing start to his NBA career...every few months he'd put up SGA numbers for one game and catch our attention, but that's clearly not who he is. He found a real home in MIN's defense as a Doberman...AB, at the least, can be that. Kind of like Isaac, being literally deployed on a singular mission to neutralize a player or play - and then, as a bonus, become a threat to knock down open 3's on the other end...I'd say that's AB's immediate contribution and maybe just the beginning of what's in his bag.

Theoretically, if we add enough backcourt offense, we could alter the balance of the frontcourt a bit. For example, Ingles brought nothing but offense in the form of creation, leadership and shooting open 3's. If we had a Monk-type in the backcourt to keep the offense cooking, we could have more of AB at the 3 (really who cares what position you call it) just playing the mini-Isaac, NAW, McDaniels role.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#468 » by RookieStar » Mon May 13, 2024 10:17 pm

Skybox wrote:
eyriq wrote:
Knightro wrote:Couldn't the argument could be made, considering the Magic actually used AB purely as a 3&D guy as a rookie, that if they Orlando had absolutely no plans to use Black as a on-ball shot creator at all, that they would have been better served picking someone who projected out to be more comfortable as a 3&D guy.

I get that you like him. I like him too. But it feels like every discussion sort of turns into some sort of "AB didn't fall flat on his face at this one specific thing we thought he might suck at, clearly he's got all-star potential!" and I'm just not sure that's a fair representation of his rookie year.


Yeah, that would be fair.

I do wonder what the vision is for him. As prospects AB and Cason graded out pretty similarly as I recall.

Looking at their rookie seasons, Cason actually has a higher block and steal rate (per 100) to go along with better shooting volume and efficiency. AB has better assist, rebounding, and free throw rates. The size advantage for AB is also a plus.

If you wanted 3&D you draft Cason, no real question there.


I bristle when you suggest that AB is our starting PG, but I do believe there's an impactful role. Listening to JJ talk with Naz Reid about NAW and McDaniels being two "dobermans" and just putting on Joker smiles while locking down full-court...NAW was kind of off to a disappointing start to his NBA career...every few months he'd put up SGA numbers for one game and catch our attention, but that's clearly not who he is. He found a real home in MIN's defense as a Doberman...AB, at the least, can be that. Kind of like Isaac, being literally deployed on a singular mission to neutralize a player or play - and then, as a bonus, become a threat to knock down open 3's on the other end...I'd say that's AB's immediate contribution and maybe just the beginning of what's in his bag.

Theoretically, if we add enough backcourt offense, we could alter the balance of the frontcourt a bit. For example, Ingles brought nothing but offense in the form of creation, leadership and shooting open 3's. If we had a Monk-type in the backcourt to keep the offense cooking, we could have more of AB at the 3 (really who cares what position you call it) just playing the mini-Isaac, NAW, McDaniels role.


TBF though, if we weren't tanking OR heck, if we didn't have this playoff success or whatever WePArk will call or season, I think AB would have been our starting PG or at worse, a key contributor over the likes of Gary/Fultz.

In the words of Paolo, " I see tha vision" Huge oversized players in every position that defends like crazy is something else. However, it seemed that we were clicking and winning with Gary and the bench mob lineup of coach Mos. It enabled our org to achieve the number #1 target of all franchises,. putting butts into those overpriced seats and make some profits.

So compared to risking the winning season we have wherein we filled those 1k dollar seats that pays the salary, well.... I think they can punt it back the development of the rookies. It also has the added effect to tantalize the fans of watching next season wondering how they improved.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#469 » by Fortune Teller » Mon May 13, 2024 11:04 pm

Skybox wrote:
eyriq wrote:
Knightro wrote:Couldn't the argument could be made, considering the Magic actually used AB purely as a 3&D guy as a rookie, that if they Orlando had absolutely no plans to use Black as a on-ball shot creator at all, that they would have been better served picking someone who projected out to be more comfortable as a 3&D guy.

I get that you like him. I like him too. But it feels like every discussion sort of turns into some sort of "AB didn't fall flat on his face at this one specific thing we thought he might suck at, clearly he's got all-star potential!" and I'm just not sure that's a fair representation of his rookie year.


Yeah, that would be fair.

I do wonder what the vision is for him. As prospects AB and Cason graded out pretty similarly as I recall.

Looking at their rookie seasons, Cason actually has a higher block and steal rate (per 100) to go along with better shooting volume and efficiency. AB has better assist, rebounding, and free throw rates. The size advantage for AB is also a plus.

If you wanted 3&D you draft Cason, no real question there.


I bristle when you suggest that AB is our starting PG, but I do believe there's an impactful role. Listening to JJ talk with Naz Reid about NAW and McDaniels being two "dobermans" and just putting on Joker smiles while locking down full-court...NAW was kind of off to a disappointing start to his NBA career...every few months he'd put up SGA numbers for one game and catch our attention, but that's clearly not who he is. He found a real home in MIN's defense as a Doberman...AB, at the least, can be that. Kind of like Isaac, being literally deployed on a singular mission to neutralize a player or play - and then, as a bonus, become a threat to knock down open 3's on the other end...I'd say that's AB's immediate contribution and maybe just the beginning of what's in his bag.

Theoretically, if we add enough backcourt offense, we could alter the balance of the frontcourt a bit. For example, Ingles brought nothing but offense in the form of creation, leadership and shooting open 3's. If we had a Monk-type in the backcourt to keep the offense cooking, we could have more of AB at the 3 (really who cares what position you call it) just playing the mini-Isaac, NAW, McDaniels role.

But this is exactly why the Black pick continues to make little sense. NAW was drafted 17th, McDaniels 28th. Reid was undrafted. You can find Dobermans anywhere. There’s no reason to use the #6 pick on a defensive dog when the team has such glaring needs in the backcourt and the offense is near bottom of the league every year.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#470 » by basketballRob » Mon May 13, 2024 11:07 pm

Fortune Teller wrote:
Skybox wrote:
eyriq wrote:
Yeah, that would be fair.

I do wonder what the vision is for him. As prospects AB and Cason graded out pretty similarly as I recall.

Looking at their rookie seasons, Cason actually has a higher block and steal rate (per 100) to go along with better shooting volume and efficiency. AB has better assist, rebounding, and free throw rates. The size advantage for AB is also a plus.

If you wanted 3&D you draft Cason, no real question there.


I bristle when you suggest that AB is our starting PG, but I do believe there's an impactful role. Listening to JJ talk with Naz Reid about NAW and McDaniels being two "dobermans" and just putting on Joker smiles while locking down full-court...NAW was kind of off to a disappointing start to his NBA career...every few months he'd put up SGA numbers for one game and catch our attention, but that's clearly not who he is. He found a real home in MIN's defense as a Doberman...AB, at the least, can be that. Kind of like Isaac, being literally deployed on a singular mission to neutralize a player or play - and then, as a bonus, become a threat to knock down open 3's on the other end...I'd say that's AB's immediate contribution and maybe just the beginning of what's in his bag.

Theoretically, if we add enough backcourt offense, we could alter the balance of the frontcourt a bit. For example, Ingles brought nothing but offense in the form of creation, leadership and shooting open 3's. If we had a Monk-type in the backcourt to keep the offense cooking, we could have more of AB at the 3 (really who cares what position you call it) just playing the mini-Isaac, NAW, McDaniels role.

But this is exactly why the Black pick continues to make little sense. NAW was drafted 17th, McDaniels 28th. Reid was undrafted. You can find Dobermans anywhere. There’s no reason to use the #6 pick on a defensive dog when the team has such glaring needs in the backcourt and the offense is near bottom of the league every year.
You just aren't going to get an impact guard in the draft. They have to be developed. We were more upset with Suggs than Black after his first year, and Suggs was 7 months older. Keyonte George did alright this season but didn't impact winning. He had the worst defensive rating in the league. Scoot Henderson's EFG was 440%, and his TS was 489%. He needs 2-3 more years before he can impact winning.


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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#471 » by SOUL » Mon May 13, 2024 11:13 pm

If you don't identify that offensive archetype there, you can't "will" that player in certain drafts. AB could have a nice future here even with low use in non-injury situations.

As long as that offensive need is addressed via trade or FA.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#472 » by basketballRob » Mon May 13, 2024 11:21 pm

If AB can average 13/4/3 in his 3rd season and play great defense, the pick will be a huge success. That was Suggs' averages this season.

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#473 » by Fortune Teller » Mon May 13, 2024 11:37 pm

So if what you need isn’t there you trade the pick. Why waste the asset?
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#474 » by basketballRob » Mon May 13, 2024 11:42 pm

Fortune Teller wrote:So if what you need isn’t there you trade the pick. Why waste the asset?
They needed a guard. It's just going to take time to develop him. That's why we're talking about signing an older player for 2 years to bridge the gap.

Look at Simons' stats. It didn't really click for him offensively until year 3.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simonan01.html

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#475 » by SOUL » Tue May 14, 2024 12:26 am

Fortune Teller wrote:So if what you need isn’t there you trade the pick. Why waste the asset?


Asset management isn't based on eking out as much as you can their rookie season though. There's a lot to like about his game. I also think several people on this forum, including Knightro, who overvalue ingraining rookies ASAP (and how much it affects the team and other players), especially as we throw more and more into the fray.

I agree that if there isn't a plan in place by at least the end of season 2, mid point of season 3, then it's a complete waste of asset, but hopefully we will have an idea of where we're playing him, giving him more minutes, or if we don't have a plan, trading him while he has value.

I also only think that at our range, and the rumored players around there, only Cason Wallace made more sense positionally short-term and long-term as a defender at the guard position who could also shoot the ball. Everybody else is just as much of a project, and we weren't overlapping two shooters either.

Teams are not beholden to reset their goals and prioritize rookie classes. We were finding out if Paolo was a #1 this year, where Franz falls into place (as a 2 or 3), what would become of Suggs (turns out he CAN shoot, and may fall into place as a 4th option sort of guy offensively), and they're getting their ducks in a row with guys who are actually moving the needle right now.

No team can do this simultaneously with everything else and also win. OKC are an anomaly because of SGA, and even they're finding things out about Chet and Jdub this year that they will use next year to help even more.

Also, sometimes there just aren't fair trades to make, whether moving a pick for a vet or picks down the line. Other teams are not willfully going to trade assets or try to make fair trades. I remember several discussions going on years ago about Chris Duarte, who shot 43/37, averaged 13 points per game for the Pacers, and then was traded to Sacramento and faded into obscurity in the span of three seasons.

He went from someone everybody was banging their heads about missing out on as a rookie to ignoring him completely.

You could also make the "right" pick that doesn't show signs of being the player you want until they're on a different team, which happens quite often. Malik Monk is a prime example of someone who the Hornets wished they had this version of, and he had four seasons to show that and it wasn't until LA and SAC where he became comfortable.

What matters is finding out we made the right picks with Paolo, Franz and Suggs, and then finding out more with Black/Jett. It's also about addressing several holes we know we have in our roster moving forward.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#476 » by ORLMagicGirl15 » Tue May 14, 2024 12:53 am

When will the all-nba and all-defensive team be announced?
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#477 » by yoyojw17 » Tue May 14, 2024 12:54 am





The guy had few games where he truly asserted himself.... and in these 2 he looked pretty darn good. If all he does is develop excellent defense, be a capable 3pnt shooter from the corner, run in transition , and make the right connective plays.... he will be great WINNING player.Pretty much can give us better gary harris.... but 3-4 inches taller at 20 yo.

I think people are judge WAY too quickly since they look at the leashed version and assume there is nothing more. I would NOT be surprised if he is playing meaningful/serious minutes next season

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#478 » by eyriq » Tue May 14, 2024 1:35 am

yoyojw17 wrote:



The guy had few games where he truly asserted himself.... and in these 2 he looked pretty darn good. If all he does is develop excellent defense, be a capable 3pnt shooter from the corner, run in transition , and make the right connective plays.... he will be great WINNING player.Pretty much can give us better gary harris.... but 3-4 inches taller at 20 yo.

I think people are judge WAY too quickly since they look at the leashed version and assume there is nothing more. I would NOT be surprised if he is playing meaningful/serious minutes next season

Oh man, those videos bring a smile to my face.
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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#479 » by MagicFan101 » Tue May 14, 2024 3:02 am

As a group of completely unbiased NBA fans … What ya got?

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Re: Official 2023-2024 Magic General Season Thread II 

Post#480 » by thelead » Tue May 14, 2024 3:12 am

MagicFan101 wrote:As a group of completely unbiased NBA fans … What ya got?

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1. Ant
2. Wemby (purely on potential here but will likely be #1 within 1-2 years)
3. Paolo
4. Cade
5. Zion (would be higher if not for his health issues)
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