Official Summer 2024 Magic Free Agency and Trade Ideas Thread 5.0

[eyriq]

Black had 3,9 assists on 3,0 turnovers.

You can go through your mental gimnastics trying to bend facts, but those numbers aren't very good.
Especially if you add one nba season and numbers still don't look good.

I mean objectively those numbers are good. Like, top 2 or 3 in the SEC and top 20 or 30 in the NCAA for freshman good over the last 14 years.

Maybe you are arguing that they aren't good ENOUGH to be the primary reason you draft AB?

AB as a PG prospect is very well rounded with an elite combination of size, playmaking, and defense.

Posters dump on him yet when he started, we won, when he defended, he locked up his guy, when he shot threes, he made them.

Who execlly are you comparing him with?
It does not take much to figure 3,9 APG/ 3 TO & 1,3 APG/ 0,8 TO aren't good numbers.

Problem is, you compare him with "other college point guards" from 2023 draft. But who execlly?

Scoot Henderson- didn't play NCAA
Amen Thompson- didn't play in NCAA
Cason Wallace- more assists- less turnovers at college / more assists- less turnovers in nba
JHS- similar college numbers ( Black slightly more assists, more turnovers ) / basically didn't play in nba at all as rookie

That's a whole list of nba rookie point guards for 2023 draft class. As Knightro said, it's like saying you won silver, but you forgot to mention 3 people applied to race, but one didn't show up.


Goes without saying 2023 draft class was talent depleated at PG position from college pool.

It's like saying Ty Ty is third best PG from 2022 class. Nevermind fact only 2 players actually play in nba , but he tends to sit on bench so by default, he is 3rd best ( in class of two ).


Nobody, and i mean nobody on this board "hates" on Black, if anything some of us want Magic to play him like point guard more, and less on Tabo Sefalosha- don't touch a ball- role. But Black today is far away from great playmaker, especially in a league that PG poistion is still most stacked with talent. And at college he did not display "great playmaking" ability averaging 4 assists a game.
Having 1 good pass once a week does not mean you are next Jokic, i've seen "one play Jokic" players probably 50000000 times in my life, including fat- 5-9 dads league.

I compared him to every college PG over the last 14 years. I'm not cherry picking favorable comps, I'm simply pointing out the distribution of assists per game for college freshman and highlighting that his performance is ELITE in the context of the environment he competed in.

The Magic front office obviously know the context of his playmaking, and have an idea of his potential as a playmaker. I'm pointing out what some of those indicators may be for them.

While we're here spinning up fantasy trades for a starting point guard of the future, I'm pointing to the guy on the bench that we drafted number six, who's probably that guy.

I'm making the entire argument to support the idea that our number one priority should be something like Nic Claxton. We've got our shooting and play making already through last year's draft.

[Knightro]

I compared him to every college PG over the last 14 years. I'm not cherry picking favorable comps, I'm simply pointing out the distribution of assists per game for college freshman and highlighting that his performance is ELITE in the context of the environment he competed in.

The Magic front office obviously know the context of his playmaking, and have an idea of his potential as a playmaker. I'm pointing out what some of those indicators may be for them.

While we're here spinning up fantasy trades for a starting point guard of the future, I'm pointing to the guy on the bench that we drafted number six, who's probably that guy.

I'm making the entire argument to support the idea that our number one priority should be something like Nic Claxton. We've got our shooting and play making already through last year's draft.

LOL no man.

You *hope* that the Magic got those things out of last year's draft.

But there's no indication that the Magic actually got either of those two things yet.

[eyriq]

LOL no man.

You *hope* that the Magic got those things out of last year's draft.

But there's no indication that the Magic actually got either of those two things yet.

We've got them, now develop them. Clear a path for them. Maximize our assets.

[JoshuaPotter]

I compared him to every college PG over the last 14 years. I'm not cherry picking favorable comps, I'm simply pointing out the distribution of assists per game for college freshman and highlighting that his performance is ELITE in the context of the environment he competed in.

The Magic front office obviously know the context of his playmaking, and have an idea of his potential as a playmaker. I'm pointing out what some of those indicators may be for them.

While we're here spinning up fantasy trades for a starting point guard of the future, I'm pointing to the guy on the bench that we drafted number six, who's probably that guy.

I'm making the entire argument to support the idea that our number one priority should be something like Nic Claxton. We've got our shooting and play making already through last year's draft.

LOL no man.

You *hope* that the Magic got those things out of last year's draft.

But there's no indication that the Magic actually got either of those two things yet.

Indeed. We did well without Black, but at the cost of not knowing what we have in Black. Well see. I'm not sure Blacks attitude is alpha enough for Paolo to defer.

If we had made a possession or two different in game 5 and wound up in the second round. I might sing a different tune. Right now, I am more inclined to take a step back and wait for the right deal / see how rookies develop, then acquire a mysterious 2-way player guard.

[three3d]

I’ve taken a little heat for constantly bringing up OKC as a trade partner BUT I think it’s now more evident they need to make some changes. What they do with the 12th pick now probably has been changed after losing the Dallas series. They have to be kicking themselves now, with Denver eliminated this is anyone’s Championship this year. There’s a trade to be had here that helps both teams, Jonathan Issac could be the key. Could Issac get us the 12th pick and we use it on Devin Carter? Could we get the 12th pick + a player AND keep our 18th pick still? Could we wind up with Devin Carter, Zach Eddy, Scheierman, Carlton Carrington, or any other combo of players.

[CarraT]

I mean objectively those numbers are good. Like, top 2 or 3 in the SEC and top 20 or 30 in the NCAA for freshman good over the last 14 years.

Maybe you are arguing that they aren't good ENOUGH to be the primary reason you draft AB?

AB as a PG prospect is very well rounded with an elite combination of size, playmaking, and defense.

Posters dump on him yet when he started, we won, when he defended, he locked up his guy, when he shot threes, he made them.

Who execlly are you comparing him with?
It does not take much to figure 3,9 APG/ 3 TO & 1,3 APG/ 0,8 TO aren't good numbers.

Problem is, you compare him with "other college point guards" from 2023 draft. But who execlly?

Scoot Henderson- didn't play NCAA
Amen Thompson- didn't play in NCAA
Cason Wallace- more assists- less turnovers at college / more assists- less turnovers in nba
JHS- similar college numbers ( Black slightly more assists, more turnovers ) / basically didn't play in nba at all as rookie

That's a whole list of nba rookie point guards for 2023 draft class. As Knightro said, it's like saying you won silver, but you forgot to mention 3 people applied to race, but one didn't show up.


Goes without saying 2023 draft class was talent depleated at PG position from college pool.

It's like saying Ty Ty is third best PG from 2022 class. Nevermind fact only 2 players actually play in nba , but he tends to sit on bench so by default, he is 3rd best ( in class of two ).


Nobody, and i mean nobody on this board "hates" on Black, if anything some of us want Magic to play him like point guard more, and less on Tabo Sefalosha- don't touch a ball- role. But Black today is far away from great playmaker, especially in a league that PG poistion is still most stacked with talent. And at college he did not display "great playmaking" ability averaging 4 assists a game.
Having 1 good pass once a week does not mean you are next Jokic, i've seen "one play Jokic" players probably 50000000 times in my life, including fat- 5-9 dads league.

I compared him to every college PG over the last 14 years. I'm not cherry picking favorable comps, I'm simply pointing out the distribution of assists per game for college freshman and highlighting that his performance is ELITE in the context of the environment he competed in.

The Magic front office obviously know the context of his playmaking, and have an idea of his potential as a playmaker. I'm pointing out what some of those indicators may be for them.

While we're here spinning up fantasy trades for a starting point guard of the future, I'm pointing to the guy on the bench that we drafted number six, who's probably that guy.

I'm making the entire argument to support the idea that our number one priority should be something like Nic Claxton. We've got our shooting and play making already through last year's draft.

You already posted this stat:

Here is the number of college freshmen who average more assists per game than Anthony Black since 2011. This doesn't filter out players that played in very few games, just the raw count of players that average more assists per game.

2011 33
2012 30
2013 20
2014 22
2015 17
2016 24
2017 24
2018 36
2019 26
2020 21
2021 21
2022 16
2023 16
2024 19

So you mention yourself that EVERY year there are dozens of freshmen averaging more assists than AB. Still you claim he is "elite" in this stat? Doesnt make sense. Especially if you considering his A/TO ratio. And how many of these "elite" playmakers that even averaged more assists in college became relevant NBA players? Like what, 10%?
Everybody likes AB and want him to succeed. But so far he just havent shown to be a good playmaker (let alone "elite"), nor anyting else besides defense. He could easily become the next MCW. Lets hope he doesnt, but dont claim like his carreer path is already written.
Who are you, his uncle or agent?

[Bergmaniac]

Black would have to make a historical jump in playmaking ability from Year 1 to Year 2 to be a viable playmaker for a playoff team next season. He barely did any playmaking last season and almost never looked comfortable the few times he tried. I don't care about college stats. Fact is he looked very far from being ready to be more than a connector piece on offense throughout his rookie year. When you can't get any minutes in the worst PG rotation in the league despite being a very good defender already, that's quite telling about your playmaking skills.

[three3d]

https://youtu.be/8xOYBztmJW8?si=rG-HvwbNo7N1RvPF

OKC’s perfect offseason, 4:00 mark he brings up a name I’ve also tossed out in Josh Giddey. Giddey might be the most obtainable piece from the Thunder and the guy in the video speaks well about Giddey and his potential still. A 6’8 pg ( yes pg the guy in the video even calls him a pg) nexr ro two 6’10” forwards is a BIG team. Whatever Giddeys knocks are he is a playmaker and still only 21 years old.

[Magicman125]

https://youtu.be/8xOYBztmJW8?si=rG-HvwbNo7N1RvPF

OKC’s perfect offseason, 4:00 mark he brings up a name I’ve also tossed out in Josh Giddey. Giddey might be the most obtainable piece from the Thunder and the guy in the video speaks well about Giddey and his potential still. A 6’8 pg ( yes pg the guy in the video even calls him a pg) nexr ro two 6’10” forwards is a BIG team. Whatever Giddeys knocks are he is a playmaker and still only 21 years old.

I'm good, he can't shoot and got played off the floor in the playoffs. We need more spacing not less.

[MagicMatic]

The problem with people “calling out” whether or not a rookie prospect is going to live up to their draft reputation is that those same people do not “call” the ones that actually pan out. Why? Because they have no actual clue what the **** they are talking about. If they did they’d be employed by an organization that gets it wrong usually anyway.

Just look at the 2020 nba draft now that we can draw some conclusions.

Ball - #3
Haliburton - #12
Cole - #15
Maxey - #21
Bane - #30

So yeah, it’s really really easy to look at college stats thinking you are drawing some kind of comparison and claiming a guy isn’t good in year 1,2, or 3. The reality is that you don’t know what you are talking about and you’re taking safe stances on players when the nba data eventually correlates to a talking point. Otherwise, you are taking out of your ass and will never eat crow when you are proven incorrect.

These same people don’t take into account all the other possible factors involved in a players success. Role, team, playing time, etc.

[eyriq]

Who execlly are you comparing him with?
It does not take much to figure 3,9 APG/ 3 TO & 1,3 APG/ 0,8 TO aren't good numbers.

Problem is, you compare him with "other college point guards" from 2023 draft. But who execlly?

Scoot Henderson- didn't play NCAA
Amen Thompson- didn't play in NCAA
Cason Wallace- more assists- less turnovers at college / more assists- less turnovers in nba
JHS- similar college numbers ( Black slightly more assists, more turnovers ) / basically didn't play in nba at all as rookie

That's a whole list of nba rookie point guards for 2023 draft class. As Knightro said, it's like saying you won silver, but you forgot to mention 3 people applied to race, but one didn't show up.


Goes without saying 2023 draft class was talent depleated at PG position from college pool.

It's like saying Ty Ty is third best PG from 2022 class. Nevermind fact only 2 players actually play in nba , but he tends to sit on bench so by default, he is 3rd best ( in class of two ).


Nobody, and i mean nobody on this board "hates" on Black, if anything some of us want Magic to play him like point guard more, and less on Tabo Sefalosha- don't touch a ball- role. But Black today is far away from great playmaker, especially in a league that PG poistion is still most stacked with talent. And at college he did not display "great playmaking" ability averaging 4 assists a game.
Having 1 good pass once a week does not mean you are next Jokic, i've seen "one play Jokic" players probably 50000000 times in my life, including fat- 5-9 dads league.

I compared him to every college PG over the last 14 years. I'm not cherry picking favorable comps, I'm simply pointing out the distribution of assists per game for college freshman and highlighting that his performance is ELITE in the context of the environment he competed in.

The Magic front office obviously know the context of his playmaking, and have an idea of his potential as a playmaker. I'm pointing out what some of those indicators may be for them.

While we're here spinning up fantasy trades for a starting point guard of the future, I'm pointing to the guy on the bench that we drafted number six, who's probably that guy.

I'm making the entire argument to support the idea that our number one priority should be something like Nic Claxton. We've got our shooting and play making already through last year's draft.

You already posted this stat:

Here is the number of college freshmen who average more assists per game than Anthony Black since 2011. This doesn't filter out players that played in very few games, just the raw count of players that average more assists per game.

2011 33
2012 30
2013 20
2014 22
2015 17
2016 24
2017 24
2018 36
2019 26
2020 21
2021 21
2022 16
2023 16
2024 19

So you mention yourself that EVERY year there are dozens of freshmen averaging more assists than AB. Still you claim he is "elite" in this stat? Doesnt make sense. Especially if you considering his A/TO ratio. And how many of these "elite" playmakers that even averaged more assists in college became relevant NBA players? Like what, 10%?
Everybody likes AB and want him to succeed. But so far he just havent shown to be a good playmaker (let alone "elite"), nor anyting else besides defense. He could easily become the next MCW. Lets hope he doesnt, but dont claim like his carreer path is already written.
Who are you, his uncle or agent?

There are three points I've consistently pushed back on

1. AB shouldn't be in the rotation unless we are tanking
2. AB isn't a point guard
3. AB isn't a playmaker

I've shown facts that indicate he was as impactful as Fultz or Harris (sweater vest points), he is a PG (he's played the position at every stage and was drafted as a PG), and he is a playmaker (one of the top freshman in apg no matter which season you check).

Personally, I enjoy pushing back on posters that conclude he's none of those three things. When we drafted him he got hated on because he wasn't Fultz or he was too similar to Fultz. The kid hasn't gotten the support he deserves.

Evaluating prospects is hard. We fail more than we succeed. I doubt our front office is as divided on Anthony Black as this board is, but personally, I think it's fun to argue it out. Especially when I think I'm ultimately going to be proven out correct.

[JBSouthpaw]

I compared him to every college PG over the last 14 years. I'm not cherry picking favorable comps, I'm simply pointing out the distribution of assists per game for college freshman and highlighting that his performance is ELITE in the context of the environment he competed in.

The Magic front office obviously know the context of his playmaking, and have an idea of his potential as a playmaker. I'm pointing out what some of those indicators may be for them.

While we're here spinning up fantasy trades for a starting point guard of the future, I'm pointing to the guy on the bench that we drafted number six, who's probably that guy.

I'm making the entire argument to support the idea that our number one priority should be something like Nic Claxton. We've got our shooting and play making already through last year's draft.

You already posted this stat:

Here is the number of college freshmen who average more assists per game than Anthony Black since 2011. This doesn't filter out players that played in very few games, just the raw count of players that average more assists per game.

2011 33
2012 30
2013 20
2014 22
2015 17
2016 24
2017 24
2018 36
2019 26
2020 21
2021 21
2022 16
2023 16
2024 19

So you mention yourself that EVERY year there are dozens of freshmen averaging more assists than AB. Still you claim he is "elite" in this stat? Doesnt make sense. Especially if you considering his A/TO ratio. And how many of these "elite" playmakers that even averaged more assists in college became relevant NBA players? Like what, 10%?
Everybody likes AB and want him to succeed. But so far he just havent shown to be a good playmaker (let alone "elite"), nor anyting else besides defense. He could easily become the next MCW. Lets hope he doesnt, but dont claim like his carreer path is already written.
Who are you, his uncle or agent?

There are three points I've consistently pushed back on

1. AB shouldn't be in the rotation unless we are tanking
2. AB isn't a point guard
3. AB isn't a playmaker

I've shown facts that indicate he was as impactful as Fultz or Harris (sweater vest points), he is a PG (he's played the position at every stage and was drafted as a PG), and he is a playmaker (one of the top freshman in apg no matter which season you check).

Personally, I enjoy pushing back on posters that conclude he's none of those three things. When we drafted him he got hated on because he wasn't Fultz or he was too similar to Fultz. The kid hasn't gotten the support he deserves.

Evaluating prospects is hard. We fail more than we succeed. I doubt our front office is as divided on Anthony Black as this board is, but personally, I think it's fun to argue it out. Especially when I think I'm ultimately going to be proven out correct.

..and Suggs wasn't a shooter.

[eyriq]

..and Suggs wasn't a shooter.

Ding ding ding

The moral to the story is don't throw out the player profile after just their rookie season. People that evaluate draft prospects have a certain profile for a player. Develop towards that profile through their rookie contract. By the time extensions roll around, you'll know what kind of player you've got.

[three3d]

https://youtu.be/8xOYBztmJW8?si=rG-HvwbNo7N1RvPF

OKC’s perfect offseason, 4:00 mark he brings up a name I’ve also tossed out in Josh Giddey. Giddey might be the most obtainable piece from the Thunder and the guy in the video speaks well about Giddey and his potential still. A 6’8 pg ( yes pg the guy in the video even calls him a pg) nexr ro two 6’10” forwards is a BIG team. Whatever Giddeys knocks are he is a playmaker and still only 21 years old.

I'm good, he can't shoot and got played off the floor in the playoffs. We need more spacing not less.

Post All Star break Giddey shot 36% on 3’s with low volume 3 attempts per game playing alongside SGA. He would get more looks in Orlando and I do think he’d be a capable shooter. Thats not even factoring in his really good assist and rebound numbers, he’s a triple double threat nightly. Also he has 2 years left on the contract so if anything it’s a 2 year window to see what he can do plus he’s only 21.

[Magicman125]

https://youtu.be/8xOYBztmJW8?si=rG-HvwbNo7N1RvPF

OKC’s perfect offseason, 4:00 mark he brings up a name I’ve also tossed out in Josh Giddey. Giddey might be the most obtainable piece from the Thunder and the guy in the video speaks well about Giddey and his potential still. A 6’8 pg ( yes pg the guy in the video even calls him a pg) nexr ro two 6’10” forwards is a BIG team. Whatever Giddeys knocks are he is a playmaker and still only 21 years old.

I'm good, he can't shoot and got played off the floor in the playoffs. We need more spacing not less.

Post All Star break Giddey shot 36% on 3’s with low volume 3 attempts per game playing alongside SGA. He would get more looks in Orlando and I do think he’d be a capable shooter. Thats not even factoring in his really good assist and rebound numbers, he’s a triple double threat nightly. Also he has 2 years left on the contract so if anything it’s a 2 year window to see what he can do plus he’s only 21.

I care way more about his playoff performance (or lack thereof) than his post-all star break RS stats. No interest in someone who won't create gravity with his shooting capability and also doesn't play good defense. To say nothing of his off the court problems, I just don't see it.

[three3d]

I'm good, he can't shoot and got played off the floor in the playoffs. We need more spacing not less.

Post All Star break Giddey shot 36% on 3’s with low volume 3 attempts per game playing alongside SGA. He would get more looks in Orlando and I do think he’d be a capable shooter. Thats not even factoring in his really good assist and rebound numbers, he’s a triple double threat nightly. Also he has 2 years left on the contract so if anything it’s a 2 year window to see what he can do plus he’s only 21.

I care way more about his playoff performance (or lack thereof) than his post-all star break RS stats. No interest in someone who won't create gravity with his shooting capability and also doesn't play good defense. To say nothing of his off the court problems, I just don't see it.

Would he have been an upgrade over what we did for a point guard this season? Gary Harris, Markel Fultz at point guard over Giddey?

[byeganyo]

https://youtu.be/8xOYBztmJW8?si=rG-HvwbNo7N1RvPF

OKC’s perfect offseason, 4:00 mark he brings up a name I’ve also tossed out in Josh Giddey. Giddey might be the most obtainable piece from the Thunder and the guy in the video speaks well about Giddey and his potential still. A 6’8 pg ( yes pg the guy in the video even calls him a pg) nexr ro two 6’10” forwards is a BIG team. Whatever Giddeys knocks are he is a playmaker and still only 21 years old.

I'm good, he can't shoot and got played off the floor in the playoffs. We need more spacing not less.

Post All Star break Giddey shot 36% on 3’s with low volume 3 attempts per game playing alongside SGA. He would get more looks in Orlando and I do think he’d be a capable shooter. Thats not even factoring in his really good assist and rebound numbers, he’s a triple double threat nightly. Also he has 2 years left on the contract so if anything it’s a 2 year window to see what he can do plus he’s only 21.

He cant shoot, he cant play defense, he is a bit of a star or a bust player, and so far he is going toward the latter scenario.
Some team can take him and try to build their team around him but it shouldnt be us.

[Knightro]

We've got them, now develop them. Clear a path for them. Maximize our assets.

I would agree with this more if this team wasn't trying to win now.

Coming off a 47-win season and a 7 game loss in the first round that they had chances to win outright, the time for clearing a path for young players who may or may not actually even be good is over and done with.

It's too late now. It's gone. The Magic are trying to win and the days of handing unproven young players minutes they haven't shown capability of filling is over.

If those guys play well and earn a spot, then great.

But the difference between say the Jalen Suggs situation and the current Anthony Black situation is that Suggs was picked by a team deep in the midst of a tanking situation where they could afford to roll the ball out there and let him rack up a 25% USG and all the ugliness that came with that because they were trying to lose games anyway.

That's just not the case with the Magic now.

[three3d]

I'm good, he can't shoot and got played off the floor in the playoffs. We need more spacing not less.

Post All Star break Giddey shot 36% on 3’s with low volume 3 attempts per game playing alongside SGA. He would get more looks in Orlando and I do think he’d be a capable shooter. Thats not even factoring in his really good assist and rebound numbers, he’s a triple double threat nightly. Also he has 2 years left on the contract so if anything it’s a 2 year window to see what he can do plus he’s only 21.

He cant shoot, he cant play defense, he is a bit of a star or a bust player, and so far he is going toward the latter scenario.
Some team can take him and try to build their team around him but it shouldnt be us.

You could say the same about AB, none of us has seen Black run an offense though and his NCAA stats don’t show him as an effective point guard. I know Giddey is fully capable of running and offense and racking up assists and rebounds.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

We've got them, now develop them. Clear a path for them. Maximize our assets.

I would agree with this more if this team wasn't trying to win now.

Coming off a 47-win season and a 7 game loss in the first round that they had chances to win outright, the time for clearing a path for young players who may or may not actually even be good is over and done with.

It's too late now. It's gone. The Magic are trying to win and the days of handing unproven young players minutes they haven't shown capability of filling is over.

If those guys play well and earn a spot, then great.

But the difference between say the Jalen Suggs situation and the current Anthony Black situation is that Suggs was picked by a team deep in the midst of a tanking situation where they could afford to roll the ball out there and let him rack up a 25% USG and all the ugliness that came with that because they were trying to lose games anyway.

That's just not the case with the Magic now.

which will make it even crazier if they don't trade the 18th pick. We don't have roster space for another rookie who will get DNP's when we clearly need help elsewhere