Make a trade or we call for your job!

[eyriq]

Yeah, sure, FVV would have been nice. But FVV would not have taken the usage from Paolo and Franz? These dynamic forwards usage would drop significantly with FVV running the point. If you make FVV the third option however, is he even worth paying the 40million? I don’t think so.

I think we did well with the salaries we spent last offseason with Moe and Ingles. Especially with MoJoe playing vital role for the bench mob.

Yeah, this is exactly my concern with a move to use our pre-extension space on a guard. We take usage away from Franz, Paolo, and Suggs while blocking AB and Jett even more than they already are. It's a trade-off that needs to be considered and we have chosen not to do it so far, with one more window available this summer.

[zaymon]

Yeah, sure, FVV would have been nice. But FVV would not have taken the usage from Paolo and Franz? These dynamic forwards usage would drop significantly with FVV running the point. If you make FVV the third option however, is he even worth paying the 40million? I don’t think so.

I think we did well with the salaries we spent last offseason with Moe and Ingles. Especially with MoJoe playing vital role for the bench mob.

Yeah, this is exactly my concern with a move to use our pre-extension space on a guard. We take usage away from Franz, Paolo, and Suggs while blocking AB and Jett even more than they already are. It's a trade-off that needs to be considered and we have chosen not to do it so far, with one more window available this summer.

but also there is no point in chasing wins pre extension then becouse AB and Jett wont be good enough in the next 2 years.

[eyriq]

Yeah, sure, FVV would have been nice. But FVV would not have taken the usage from Paolo and Franz? These dynamic forwards usage would drop significantly with FVV running the point. If you make FVV the third option however, is he even worth paying the 40million? I don’t think so.

I think we did well with the salaries we spent last offseason with Moe and Ingles. Especially with MoJoe playing vital role for the bench mob.

Yeah, this is exactly my concern with a move to use our pre-extension space on a guard. We take usage away from Franz, Paolo, and Suggs while blocking AB and Jett even more than they already are. It's a trade-off that needs to be considered and we have chosen not to do it so far, with one more window available this summer.

but also there is no point in chasing wins pre extension then becouse AB and Jett wont be good enough in the next 2 years.

I don't think there is a point in chasing wins pre-extension by artificial means. Let the lotto talent chase wins by getting better. We should definitely be looking to upgrade complimentary pieces though. Upgrade WCJ, Cole, and Ingles. Replace Fultz with AB, Harris with Jett.

[Bensational]

They were upset we didn’t blow $40M a season on FVV to lead us to a late lottery pick like Houston.

This is so misguided - just an overly simplistic self-help, "use your gratitude journal - you're ok" take

Is FVV worth $40m per, in a vacuum? Of course not - but see the forest, not just the tree you walked into.

So you’d rather be 23-29 with FVV than 29-24 without him? Or would you rather have the super backcourt of Poole and Tyus (with super C Gafford) and be 9-43?

As much as people want to complain about our guys, they’ve figured out how to win at a level FVV, Tyus or Poole have been unable to achieve, and all of our guys have had touches. I don’t think the formula is as simple as “add Player = add wins”. I don’t think Fred has left any more profound impact on Scottie Barnes in Toronto than what Franz has been able to figure out for himself in that same timeframe. We got veteran playmaking experience and mentorship from Ingles for a fraction of the price and without him being a ball-dominator who takes the touches from our franchise cornerstones.

[Skybox]

They were upset we didn’t blow $40M a season on FVV to lead us to a late lottery pick like Houston.

This is so misguided - just an overly simplistic self-help, "use your gratitude journal - you're ok" take

Is FVV worth $40m per, in a vacuum? Of course not - but see the forest, not just the tree you walked into.

So you’d rather be 23-29 with FVV than 29-24 without him? Or would you rather have the super backcourt of Poole and Tyus (with super C Gafford) and be 9-43?

As much as people want to complain about our guys, they’ve figured out how to win at a level FVV, Tyus or Poole have been unable to achieve, and all of our guys have had touches. I don’t think the formula is as simple as “add Player = add wins”. I don’t think Fred has left any more profound impact on Scottie Barnes in Toronto than what Franz has been able to figure out for himself in that same timeframe. We got veteran playmaking experience and mentorship from Ingles for a fraction of the price and without him being a ball-dominator who takes the touches from our franchise cornerstones.

Sure...play the Poole card. By that flawed logic, Poole and FVV both have rings. If we sign them, I guess we have rings

FVV and Tyus are not playing on a team with Paolo & Franz right now

Trades don't = bad trades
add better players to good teams could actually improve a team's results
I love Ingles but he's more coach than player at this point

Simple math...Tyus > Fultz, FVV >>>>Fultz
...if the money doesn't matter at this point...there's not a lot of math to do.
I'm not talking about mortgaging the future or tattooing FVV's face on our young players' asses. Just putting better players next to our good young players...at positions and skillsets of massive glaring need. This would have been a conservative path. Actually going all-in on Murray or Simons long-term would be a real commitment.

But, but Poole, remember that trade you proposed that time? out of the ten each day you propose?

[CocoaFan]

I think this is a little over blown. While I do understand the frustration and agree moves need to be made soon, I have no clue how Paolo and Franz feel. They typically say they love their guys. And considering it’s only 3 years into a rebuild the Magic organization are doing really well. Nobody thought they would be this good at this point, most aren’t winning at 21 and 22. I think everything will be fine.

I think Paolo and Franz are probably fine for now. The decision point will be how much we've improved the roster by the time they've signed their extensions.

[Bensational]

This is so misguided - just an overly simplistic self-help, "use your gratitude journal - you're ok" take

Is FVV worth $40m per, in a vacuum? Of course not - but see the forest, not just the tree you walked into.

So you’d rather be 23-29 with FVV than 29-24 without him? Or would you rather have the super backcourt of Poole and Tyus (with super C Gafford) and be 9-43?

As much as people want to complain about our guys, they’ve figured out how to win at a level FVV, Tyus or Poole have been unable to achieve, and all of our guys have had touches. I don’t think the formula is as simple as “add Player = add wins”. I don’t think Fred has left any more profound impact on Scottie Barnes in Toronto than what Franz has been able to figure out for himself in that same timeframe. We got veteran playmaking experience and mentorship from Ingles for a fraction of the price and without him being a ball-dominator who takes the touches from our franchise cornerstones.

Sure...play the Poole card. By that flawed logic, Poole and FVV both have rings. If we sign them, I guess we have rings

FVV and Tyus are not playing on a team with Paolo & Franz right now

Trades don't = bad trades
add better players to good teams could actually improve a team's results
I love Ingles but he's more coach than player at this point

Simple math...Tyus > Fultz, FVV >>>>Fultz
...if the money doesn't matter at this point...there's not a lot of math to do.
I'm not talking about mortgaging the future or tattooing FVV's face on our young players' asses. Just putting better players next to our good young players...at positions and skillsets of massive glaring need. This would have been a conservative path. Actually going all-in on Murray or Simons long-term would be a real commitment.

But, but Poole, remember that trade you proposed that time? out of the ten each day you propose?

Poole isn’t just an example of a bad suggestion, it’s a case study of how “this player is >>> than this player” is empty without the context of fit and what they’re trying to fit. Chris Paul is better than Poole, but he has had little impact improving GSW.

Again, our guys are learning to win without that. This path is proving successful, and more successful than the other approaches which have been suggested. It might seem glaring and obvious that the team has needs in positions and roles, but since we’re winning in spite of that it begs the question of how much do we want to deviate from what’s working to chase those extra gains in the margins, and most importantly, when will the team be stable enough to handle that?

You get excited about wanting to uproot and plant new crops, I get excited watching our current crops start to bud and grow.

[Skybox]

So you’d rather be 23-29 with FVV than 29-24 without him? Or would you rather have the super backcourt of Poole and Tyus (with super C Gafford) and be 9-43?

As much as people want to complain about our guys, they’ve figured out how to win at a level FVV, Tyus or Poole have been unable to achieve, and all of our guys have had touches. I don’t think the formula is as simple as “add Player = add wins”. I don’t think Fred has left any more profound impact on Scottie Barnes in Toronto than what Franz has been able to figure out for himself in that same timeframe. We got veteran playmaking experience and mentorship from Ingles for a fraction of the price and without him being a ball-dominator who takes the touches from our franchise cornerstones.

Sure...play the Poole card. By that flawed logic, Poole and FVV both have rings. If we sign them, I guess we have rings

FVV and Tyus are not playing on a team with Paolo & Franz right now

Trades don't = bad trades
add better players to good teams could actually improve a team's results
I love Ingles but he's more coach than player at this point

Simple math...Tyus > Fultz, FVV >>>>Fultz
...if the money doesn't matter at this point...there's not a lot of math to do.
I'm not talking about mortgaging the future or tattooing FVV's face on our young players' asses. Just putting better players next to our good young players...at positions and skillsets of massive glaring need. This would have been a conservative path. Actually going all-in on Murray or Simons long-term would be a real commitment.

But, but Poole, remember that trade you proposed that time? out of the ten each day you propose?

Poole isn’t just an example of a bad suggestion, it’s a case study of how “this player is >>> than this player” is empty without the context of fit and what they’re trying to fit. Chris Paul is better than Poole, but he has had little impact improving GSW.

Again, our guys are learning to win without that. This path is proving successful, and more successful than the other approaches which have been suggested. It might seem glaring and obvious that the team has needs in positions and roles, but since we’re winning in spite of that it begs the question of how much do we want to deviate from what’s working to chase those extra gains in the margins, and most importantly, when will the team be stable enough to handle that?

You get excited about wanting to uproot and plant new crops, I get excited watching our current crops start to bud and grow.

It IS quite remarkable...I just can't get to the point where 3pt shooting can have such a low ceiling on a team with playoff hopes...I'd rather buy it than plant it and hope, but we'll keep watching...I'm afraid for such a promising season to end in a brutal exposure in the playoffs. But, we win or we learn...maybe it does evolve enough to do the job.

[eyriq]

What I find particularly annoying about Fultz and Harris blocking AB and Jett is that they aren't even contributing to wins. They are 8th and 13th in minutes played, and 10th and 13th in win shares. I mean, what are we even doing here? We are experiencing great success but they are non-factors in explaining the success.

[Bensational]

It IS quite remarkable...I just can't get to the point where 3pt shooting can have such a low ceiling on a team with playoff hopes...I'd rather buy it than plant it and hope, but we'll keep watching...I'm afraid for such a promising season to end in a brutal exposure in the playoffs. But, we win or we learn...maybe it does evolve enough to do the job.

I genuinely think shooting will come naturally. JJ said on a podcast once how he believes good shooting leads to more good shooting, and I believe that. We got a taste of it when Houstan, Okeke, Paolo and Suggs went nuclear against Sacramento and Denver. We can even think back to the early Dwight years under Brian Hill where we shot 11 3pa’s a game as a team on decent percentages, then we added Lewis and SVG and the next season we were shooting 25 3pa’s a game at a ridiculous %. Apart from Lewis, it was the same personnel, but the volume and efficiency doubled in one offseason. I think our current crop will have a similarly rapid growth like that at some point, very possibly spurred by a new player acquisition, but also very much carried by the guys we already have that aren’t currently in that form.

[Knightro]

So you’d rather be 23-29 with FVV than 29-24 without him? Or would you rather have the super backcourt of Poole and Tyus (with super C Gafford) and be 9-43?

As much as people want to complain about our guys, they’ve figured out how to win at a level FVV, Tyus or Poole have been unable to achieve, and all of our guys have had touches. I don’t think the formula is as simple as “add Player = add wins”. I don’t think Fred has left any more profound impact on Scottie Barnes in Toronto than what Franz has been able to figure out for himself in that same timeframe. We got veteran playmaking experience and mentorship from Ingles for a fraction of the price and without him being a ball-dominator who takes the touches from our franchise cornerstones.

The level of disingenuousness in this post is astounding.

[SOUL]

The Heat did that last year with awful shooting during the year and got hot in the playoffs. Certainly not something you want to depend on because it seems rare, and they also had Jimmy. But teams can theoretically shoot better in a smaller sample size versus 82 games of just being kinda bad.

Same with a team being on fire, like the Cavs or something. Sometimes it just stops working.

Again, playing those probability numbers are not a smart thing though, Usually we'll just continue sucking.

[Residual-Heat]

We're very capable of shooting better than we have so far. Franz was in a slump, and he's the one taking the most threes. Cole needs to go back to shooting 35%. I actually did the math when i was bored last week, and if Franz and Cole were shooting close to what they did last season (36 and 35% respectively), we would still be a bottom 10 3pt shooting team by %... BUT we'd be shooting nearly the same percentage as what teams are shooting against us.

[Bensational]

So you’d rather be 23-29 with FVV than 29-24 without him? Or would you rather have the super backcourt of Poole and Tyus (with super C Gafford) and be 9-43?

As much as people want to complain about our guys, they’ve figured out how to win at a level FVV, Tyus or Poole have been unable to achieve, and all of our guys have had touches. I don’t think the formula is as simple as “add Player = add wins”. I don’t think Fred has left any more profound impact on Scottie Barnes in Toronto than what Franz has been able to figure out for himself in that same timeframe. We got veteran playmaking experience and mentorship from Ingles for a fraction of the price and without him being a ball-dominator who takes the touches from our franchise cornerstones.

The level of disingenuousness in this post is astounding.

Nah, Fred is a solution for a team with a different makeup. If we had Şengün and Jabari - guys who need a playmaker to make them work - he’d be an appropriate fit. But like Toronto we have young big playmakers who we’d prefer to develop. I don’t think it’s a coincidence Toronto chose to let Fred walk away for nothing so that they could put the ball in Scottie’s hands - and he’s responded with his best individual season to date, which has helped Masai decide to move on from other incumbents. And I genuinely think Houston could be in trouble in a couple of seasons time if Green continues to regress alongside Fred, or Amen is unable to get the time and touches to develop and suddenly they don’t have Fred to pilot the team for them. We’re seeing that play out now, though they get some leeway being young.

Beyond that it’s just a fact that our team is doing better than Fred’s team, or Tyus’ team, and we have no idea how either would ultimately fit within what we’re already doing that is already working or if it would be an improvement with where our guys are at currently in their development.

[Skybox]

My fear is that our shots are already of very high quality…so, as bad as our shooting % is- it might actually be inflated. ORL guards get a lot of open shots due to our forwards’ style of play.

I guess we’ll see. Even when AB had one of his two big scoring games, he was taking wide open set shots. Caleb might be the only guy who routinely pulls up in coverage from the perimeter. There’s hope for overall improvement, but I’m afraid the personnel are limited.

[Skybox]

So you’d rather be 23-29 with FVV than 29-24 without him? Or would you rather have the super backcourt of Poole and Tyus (with super C Gafford) and be 9-43?

As much as people want to complain about our guys, they’ve figured out how to win at a level FVV, Tyus or Poole have been unable to achieve, and all of our guys have had touches. I don’t think the formula is as simple as “add Player = add wins”. I don’t think Fred has left any more profound impact on Scottie Barnes in Toronto than what Franz has been able to figure out for himself in that same timeframe. We got veteran playmaking experience and mentorship from Ingles for a fraction of the price and without him being a ball-dominator who takes the touches from our franchise cornerstones.

The level of disingenuousness in this post is astounding.

Nah, Fred is a solution for a team with a different makeup. If we had Şengün and Jabari - guys who need a playmaker to make them work - he’d be an appropriate fit. But like Toronto we have young big playmakers who we’d prefer to develop. I don’t think it’s a coincidence Toronto chose to let Fred walk away for nothing so that they could put the ball in Scottie’s hands - and he’s responded with his best individual season to date, which has helped Masai decide to move on from other incumbents. And I genuinely think Houston could be in trouble in a couple of seasons time if Green continues to regress alongside Fred, or Amen is unable to get the time and touches to develop and suddenly they don’t have Fred to pilot the team for them. We’re seeing that play out now, though they get some leeway being young.

Beyond that it’s just a fact that our team is doing better than Fred’s team, or Tyus’ team, and we have no idea how either would ultimately fit within what we’re already doing that is already working or if it would be an improvement with where our guys are at currently in their development.

I assume HOU is hoping that Amen is the guy in a year or two…just like (I assume ) ORL expects much from our #6 pick in a couple of years. I would’ve liked to place him with a solid example in front of him, rather than a player he’s, arguably, better than already. I can agree with what you said about team makeup as it relates to FVV. Maybe ORL doesn’t need that dominant a leader on-ball…but the bigger point remains that throwing short- term big money at a vet who really fits could make a lot of sense and accelerate winning (and development) without really handcuffing ORL’s future. I don’t know exactly who that is in FA but I feel like this’d be a good summer for that kind of shopping.

[The-Stallion70]

Usually when a rookie doesn't carry much of a load offensively and also fails to display essential skills like passing sense and shooting ability, there isnt much of a jump from year 1 to year 2.

I don't expect Black to become much better than he is now, a dude who did well in High school and college mainly because he's just bigger than most guys. Now that he's in the NBA his lack of offensive skills are being exposed.

[Bensational]

I assume HOU is hoping that Amen is the guy in a year or two…just like (I assume ) ORL expects much from our #6 pick in a couple of years. I would’ve liked to place him with a solid example in front of him, rather than a player he’s, arguably, better than already. I can agree with what you said about team makeup as it relates to FVV. Maybe ORL doesn’t need that dominant a leader on-ball…but the bigger point remains that throwing short- term big money at a vet who really fits could make a lot of sense and accelerate winning (and development) without really handcuffing ORL’s future. I don’t know exactly who that is in FA but I feel like this’d be a good summer for that kind of shopping.

Yeah, I’m not opposed to adding a veteran, I just want it to be the right one. I’m pretty much all in on Conley as my target to address that need. My guess is that WePark/Mosley are making a concerted effort to allow Paolo/Franz to be the leaders at this juncture of their careers instead of bringing in a Lillard/Jrue/Brogdon/Fred to take the reigns and steer the ship.

[Knightro]

Nah, Fred is a solution for a team with a different makeup. If we had Şengün and Jabari - guys who need a playmaker to make them work - he’d be an appropriate fit. But like Toronto we have young big playmakers who we’d prefer to develop. I don’t think it’s a coincidence Toronto chose to let Fred walk away for nothing so that they could put the ball in Scottie’s hands - and he’s responded with his best individual season to date, which has helped Masai decide to move on from other incumbents. And I genuinely think Houston could be in trouble in a couple of seasons time if Green continues to regress alongside Fred, or Amen is unable to get the time and touches to develop and suddenly they don’t have Fred to pilot the team for them. We’re seeing that play out now, though they get some leeway being young.

Beyond that it’s just a fact that our team is doing better than Fred’s team, or Tyus’ team, and we have no idea how either would ultimately fit within what we’re already doing that is already working or if it would be an improvement with where our guys are at currently in their development.

Just so I have this right...

You're citing Houston and Washington's respective records being worse than the Magic's as some sort of justification as to why the Magic were correct in not pursuing VanVleet or Jones, but you also cite Toronto's decision to let FVV walk and put the ball in Barnes' hands as the correct one even though Toronto is SIGNIFICANTLY worse this year without FVV as their point guard.

Makes sense.

[Bensational]

Nah, Fred is a solution for a team with a different makeup. If we had Şengün and Jabari - guys who need a playmaker to make them work - he’d be an appropriate fit. But like Toronto we have young big playmakers who we’d prefer to develop. I don’t think it’s a coincidence Toronto chose to let Fred walk away for nothing so that they could put the ball in Scottie’s hands - and he’s responded with his best individual season to date, which has helped Masai decide to move on from other incumbents. And I genuinely think Houston could be in trouble in a couple of seasons time if Green continues to regress alongside Fred, or Amen is unable to get the time and touches to develop and suddenly they don’t have Fred to pilot the team for them. We’re seeing that play out now, though they get some leeway being young.

Beyond that it’s just a fact that our team is doing better than Fred’s team, or Tyus’ team, and we have no idea how either would ultimately fit within what we’re already doing that is already working or if it would be an improvement with where our guys are at currently in their development.

Just so I have this right...

You're citing Houston and Washington's respective records being worse than the Magic's as some sort of justification as to why the Magic were correct in not pursuing VanVleet or Jones, but you also cite Toronto's decision to let FVV walk and put the ball in Barnes' hands as the correct one even though Toronto is SIGNIFICANTLY worse this year without FVV as their point guard.

Makes sense.

Toronto is in a different place to us. They took a short term step backwards as a team to take a long term step forwards, and I wouldn’t count them out of a play-in chase this season. Masai had seen enough of FVV, Siakam and OG being a treadmill team and he got out the same way we did with Vuc, AG and Fournier - except we did it all in one go and he waited longer.

Şengün and Jabari are nothing like Paolo and Franz or Scottie. They require different guys to bring out the best in them.