2023-2024 Regular Season Game 55: New York Knicks (33-21) at Orlando Magic (29-25) - 7pm

[RookieStar]

I think the Penny, Shaq, Nick, and Dennis core of lotto talent is comparable to the Paolo, Franz, AB, Suggs, and Jett core of lotto talent.

No disrespect intended, but this is an unserious take.

Yeah... even as unknown rookies, the first core blows out the 2nd core

[eyriq]

I think the Penny, Shaq, Nick, and Dennis core of lotto talent is comparable to the Paolo, Franz, AB, Suggs, and Jett core of lotto talent.

No disrespect intended, but this is an unserious take.

I don't even get why you'd consider this an unserious take. If anything you could argue our young core has a higher ceiling.

In their first playoffs:
Penny was a rookie, drafted 2nd
Shaq was a sophomore, drafted 1st
Dennis was a junior, drafted 4th
Anderson was a senior, drafted 11th

This season the Magic are well on their way to the playoffs:
AB is rookie, drafted 6th
Jett is a rookie, drafted 11th
Paolo is a sophomore, drafted 1st
Suggs is a junior, drafted 5th
Franz is a junior, drafted 8th

Dennis and Nick capped at quality starters while Suggs, AB, and Jett still have rising star potential.

You can argue that Shaq is better than Paolo and Penny is better than Franz but it doesn't really matter, what matters is if Paolo can be top 5 and Franz can top 15, and both have that potential.

[Knightro]

I think the Penny, Shaq, Nick, and Dennis core of lotto talent is comparable to the Paolo, Franz, AB, Suggs, and Jett core of lotto talent.

No disrespect intended, but this is an unserious take.

I don't even get why you'd consider this an unserious take. If anything you could argue our young core has a higher ceiling.

In their first playoffs:
Penny was a rookie, drafted 2nd
Shaq was a sophomore, drafted 1st
Dennis was a junior, drafted 4th
Anderson was a senior, drafted 11th

This season the Magic are well on their way to the playoffs:
AB is rookie, drafted 6th
Jett is a rookie, drafted 11th
Paolo is a sophomore, drafted 1st
Suggs is a junior, drafted 5th
Franz is a junior, drafted 8th

Dennis and Nick capped at quality starters while Suggs, AB, and Jett still have rising star potential.

You can argue that Shaq is better than Paolo and Penny is better than Franz but it doesn't really matter, what matters is if Paolo can be top 5 and Franz can top 15, and both have that potential.

Your optimism, while generally appreciated in a sea of negative nonsense on this board, is only going to lead you down a path of significant disappointment if you don’t course correct to more realistic expectations.

That’s all I can say to that.

[eyriq]

No disrespect intended, but this is an unserious take.

I don't even get why you'd consider this an unserious take. If anything you could argue our young core has a higher ceiling.

In their first playoffs:
Penny was a rookie, drafted 2nd
Shaq was a sophomore, drafted 1st
Dennis was a junior, drafted 4th
Anderson was a senior, drafted 11th

This season the Magic are well on their way to the playoffs:
AB is rookie, drafted 6th
Jett is a rookie, drafted 11th
Paolo is a sophomore, drafted 1st
Suggs is a junior, drafted 5th
Franz is a junior, drafted 8th

Dennis and Nick capped at quality starters while Suggs, AB, and Jett still have rising star potential.

You can argue that Shaq is better than Paolo and Penny is better than Franz but it doesn't really matter, what matters is if Paolo can be top 5 and Franz can top 15, and both have that potential.

Your optimism, while generally appreciated in a sea of negative nonsense on this board, is only going to lead you down a path of significant disappointment if you don’t course correct to more realistic expectations.

That’s all I can say to that.

Do you think Paolo and Franz are all star talent? That by definition is at least a top 24 player.

Do you think at least one of Suggs, AB, or Jett are rising stars?

I'm only optimistic about realistic outcomes.

[Knightro]

I don't even get why you'd consider this an unserious take. If anything you could argue our young core has a higher ceiling.

In their first playoffs:
Penny was a rookie, drafted 2nd
Shaq was a sophomore, drafted 1st
Dennis was a junior, drafted 4th
Anderson was a senior, drafted 11th

This season the Magic are well on their way to the playoffs:
AB is rookie, drafted 6th
Jett is a rookie, drafted 11th
Paolo is a sophomore, drafted 1st
Suggs is a junior, drafted 5th
Franz is a junior, drafted 8th

Dennis and Nick capped at quality starters while Suggs, AB, and Jett still have rising star potential.

You can argue that Shaq is better than Paolo and Penny is better than Franz but it doesn't really matter, what matters is if Paolo can be top 5 and Franz can top 15, and both have that potential.

Your optimism, while generally appreciated in a sea of negative nonsense on this board, is only going to lead you down a path of significant disappointment if you don’t course correct to more realistic expectations.

That’s all I can say to that.

Do you think Paolo and Franz are all star talent? That by definition is at least a top 24 player.

Do you think at least one of Suggs, AB, or Jett are rising stars?

I'm only optimistic about realistic outcomes.

Paolo wouldn’t have been an all-star if it was just a list of the top 24 players in the league. He benefitted from the East being weaker than the West certainly.

Franz is even further away than Paolo is.

And no, I don’t think any of Suggs, Black or Howard are rising stars.

But beyond that…

Shaq was literally from game 1 of his rookie year was already one of the 15 best players in the sport and by year 2 he was top 5.

Penny was All-NBA first team in both his second and third seasons.

It is a complete and utter disservice to compare Paolo and Franz to Shaq and Penny.

[eyriq]

I mean, this young core is special. If you look at top 3 players in minutes on teams .545 or better Orlando really stands out.

Centers:
Chet 21
Allen 25
Bam 26
Turner 27
Sabonis 27
Jokic 28
Gobert 31
Jonas 31
Brook 35

Power forwards:
Paolo 21
JDub 22
Tatum 25
P.J. 25
KAT 28
Siakam 29
Giannis 29
Randle 29
Tobias 31
George 33
Durant 35

Small forwards:
Jaquez 22
Franz 22
Keegan 23
Nesmith 24
Porter Jr. 25
Herb 25
Ingram 26
Brown 27
Strus 27
Hart 28
Duncan 29
Hardaway Jr. 31
Hield 31
Kawhi 32

Shooting guards:
Edwards 22
Suggs 22
Mitchell 27
Grayson 28
Kentavious 30

Point guards:
Maxey 23
Luka 24
SGA 25
Fox 26
Brunson 27
Booker 27
Jrue 33
Lillard 33
Harden 34

[eyriq]

Ranking young cores, defined as top 3 in MPG and with an average age 22 or younger:

#1 OKC 2011, 55 wins, Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka
#2 OKC 2010, 50 wins, Durant/Green/Westbrook
#3 ORL 2024, ~45 wins, Paolo/Franz Suggs
#4 CLE 2022, 44 wins, Garland/Mobley/Okoro
#5 MIL 2015, 41 wins, Giannis/Middleton/MCW
#6 MIN 1997, 40 wins, Gugliotta/Garnett/Marbury
#7 OKC 2023, 40 wins, SGA/Giddey/JDub
#8 BOS 1998, 36 wins, Walker/Mercer/McCarty
#9 ORL 2023, 34 wins, Franz/Paolo/Fultz
#10 MIL 2016, 33 wins, Middleton/Giannis/Jabari

Edit: the point is, this is one of the best young cores of all time and should be in the conversation when comparing this build to our best organic build. I know you have issues with the execution of the rebuild but objectively we have a massive outlier on our hands here. If you aren't optimistic, I'd argue that you aren't considering the historical context and you have the wrong expectations.

[byeganyo]

In their first playoffs:
Penny was a rookie, drafted 2nd
Shaq was a sophomore, drafted 1st
Dennis was a junior, drafted 4th
Anderson was a senior, drafted 11th

That’s all I can say to that.
Do you think Paolo and Franz are all star talent? That by definition is at least a top 24 player.

Do you think at least one of Suggs, AB, or Jett are rising stars?

I'm only optimistic about realistic outcomes.

Being №24 in a top 24 is a bit different than being №1

In 1994 Shaq in his 2nd season finished 4th in MVP voting.
In 1995, Shaq was 2nd (just behind DRob) and Penny was 10th the same year as a sophomore.

Do you think Paolo and Franz are finishing top 10 this season? Both or any of them?

And still as already has been said, this team signed an all star an all defensive player in Horace Grant. Its comparable to signing lets say a Mikal or a Murray if they have managed to get 3 rings meanwhile.

[ogmagicfan]

I love Paolo & Franz and theyre the best 22 & under duo in the NBA right now no question

But Shaq & Penny, were on another level and if Shaq stayed & Penny stayed healthy wouldve been a top 5 duo All-Time easily. They also complemented each other better.

That isn't a knock to Paolo, Franz, Suggs, etc but more of highlighting that Shaq & Penny were on pace for something historic in their years they played together

[eyriq]

I love Paolo & Franz and theyre the best 22 & under duo in the NBA right now no question

But Shaq & Penny, were on another level and if Shaq stayed & Penny stayed healthy wouldve been a top 5 duo All-Time easily. They also complemented each other better.

That isn't a knock to Paolo, Franz, Suggs, etc but more of highlighting that Shaq & Penny were on pace for something historic in their years they played together

All I'll say is that we PROBABLY have an ALL-TIME great young core. Like, there is good evidence of this. It doesn't mean they'll take us to a championship, OKC and Minnesota failed, while Milwaukee succeeded and the Cavs are still questing. Most young cores suck.

OKC failed because they traded Harden and lost Durant years later, effectively because they made strategic miscalculations in player retention and managing the coexistence of their stars.

Minnesota failed because of their inability to build a strong supporting cast around Garnett due to the departure of Marbury.

Milwaukee succeeded because they eventually surrounded prime Giannis and Middleton with Brook and then Jrue.

The moral to this story is that you should never give up on lotto talent early, never compromise the culture and team chemistry (mishandling egos tanked OKC and Minny), and compliment your core when they are in their prime.


Edit: If the Cavs fail it will likely be because they went all in on Mitchell too early in their timeline. The theory here will be that Mitchell blocked the development of their young core because they got too dependent on him. Which is why we should wait until our core has matured and we know exactly what we have before adding any missing pieces.

[Skybox]

Your optimism, while generally appreciated in a sea of negative nonsense on this board, is only going to lead you down a path of significant disappointment if you don’t course correct to more realistic expectations.

That’s all I can say to that.

Do you think Paolo and Franz are all star talent? That by definition is at least a top 24 player.

Do you think at least one of Suggs, AB, or Jett are rising stars?

I'm only optimistic about realistic outcomes.

Paolo wouldn’t have been an all-star if it was just a list of the top 24 players in the league. He benefitted from the East being weaker than the West certainly.

Franz is even further away than Paolo is.

And no, I don’t think any of Suggs, Black or Howard are rising stars.

But beyond that…

Shaq was literally from game 1 of his rookie year was already one of the 15 best players in the sport and by year 2 he was top 5.

Penny was All-NBA first team in both his second and third seasons.

It is a complete and utter disservice to compare Paolo and Franz to Shaq and Penny.

Agree…possible All-Stars vs certain All-NBA….and the 3&4 guys are even farther apart ( not to mention how much more well-matched the older 4 were).

[pepe1991]

Do you think Paolo and Franz are all star talent? That by definition is at least a top 24 player.

Do you think at least one of Suggs, AB, or Jett are rising stars?

I'm only optimistic about realistic outcomes.

Paolo wouldn’t have been an all-star if it was just a list of the top 24 players in the league. He benefitted from the East being weaker than the West certainly.

Franz is even further away than Paolo is.

And no, I don’t think any of Suggs, Black or Howard are rising stars.

But beyond that…

Shaq was literally from game 1 of his rookie year was already one of the 15 best players in the sport and by year 2 he was top 5.

Penny was All-NBA first team in both his second and third seasons.

It is a complete and utter disservice to compare Paolo and Franz to Shaq and Penny.

Agree…possible All-Stars vs certain All-NBA….and the 3&4 guys are even farther apart ( not to mention how much more well-matched the older 4 were).

Shaq wasn't just an allstar in rookie year, he was one of best nba players off a gates.

He walked into a league and as a rookie and was:

8th leading scorer
2# rebounder
2# shotblocker


Year two Shaq lost scoring title within 0,5 points margin

Current allstar selections, where 50% of votes come from fans, make whole voting process very dumb.
Not to mention it's not 24 best players selection, rather selection of 12 best players from conference- who fans like.

That's why in some years you get some random allstar names like Andrew Wiggins and his 17 -3-2 split

[AaronB]

Your optimism, while generally appreciated in a sea of negative nonsense on this board, is only going to lead you down a path of significant disappointment if you don’t course correct to more realistic expectations.

That’s all I can say to that.

Do you think Paolo and Franz are all star talent? That by definition is at least a top 24 player.

Do you think at least one of Suggs, AB, or Jett are rising stars?

I'm only optimistic about realistic outcomes.

Paolo wouldn’t have been an all-star if it was just a list of the top 24 players in the league. He benefitted from the East being weaker than the West certainly.

Franz is even further away than Paolo is.

And no, I don’t think any of Suggs, Black or Howard are rising stars.

But beyond that…

Shaq was literally from game 1 of his rookie year was already one of the 15 best players in the sport and by year 2 he was top 5.

Penny was All-NBA first team in both his second and third seasons.

It is a complete and utter disservice to compare Paolo and Franz to Shaq and Penny.

This would look a lot less stupid if the West had actually beaten the East.

Agree with Shaq, but he is a unicorn. I sat in the nosebleed section (obstructed view they called it) in Shaq's first game against Mia and rony Seikaly. Seikaly made a career of crushing the Magic and Greg Kite. He went up against Shaq that first time and he knew his career just changed for the worse.

Penny was really good his first 4 years. after that not so good. It is why he will not make the HoF.

8 years or so of mediocrity or below. Easy to see both Paolo and Franz having much better careers than Penny.

[basketballRob]

Do you think Paolo and Franz are all star talent? That by definition is at least a top 24 player.

Do you think at least one of Suggs, AB, or Jett are rising stars?

I'm only optimistic about realistic outcomes.

Paolo wouldn’t have been an all-star if it was just a list of the top 24 players in the league. He benefitted from the East being weaker than the West certainly.

Franz is even further away than Paolo is.

And no, I don’t think any of Suggs, Black or Howard are rising stars.

But beyond that…

Shaq was literally from game 1 of his rookie year was already one of the 15 best players in the sport and by year 2 he was top 5.

Penny was All-NBA first team in both his second and third seasons.

It is a complete and utter disservice to compare Paolo and Franz to Shaq and Penny.

This would look a lot less stupid if the West had actually beaten the East.

Agree with Shaq, but he is a unicorn. I sat in the nosebleed section (obstructed view they called it) in Shaq's first game against Mia and rony Seikaly. Seikaly made a career of crushing the Magic and Greg Kite. He went up against Shaq that first time and he knew his career just changed for the worse.

Penny was really good his first 4 years. after that not so good. It is why he will not make the HoF.

8 years or so of mediocrity or below. Easy to see both Paolo and Franz having much better careers than Penny.

Penny had a knee injury and was never the same afterward.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[Knightro]

This would look a lot less stupid if the West had actually beaten the East.

Agree with Shaq, but he is a unicorn. I sat in the nosebleed section (obstructed view they called it) in Shaq's first game against Mia and rony Seikaly. Seikaly made a career of crushing the Magic and Greg Kite. He went up against Shaq that first time and he knew his career just changed for the worse.

Penny was really good his first 4 years. after that not so good. It is why he will not make the HoF.

8 years or so of mediocrity or below. Easy to see both Paolo and Franz having much better careers than Penny.

Does it really matter if Paolo or Franz have better careers than Penny on longevity though?

It's highly unlikely Franz or Paolo will ever hit Penny's apex which came in a Magic uniform and also came while Shaq was still here. In 1996 Penny was 4th in the NBA in BPM and win shares.

This entire discussion was about how this current Magic core group compares to the Magic's core in the early to mid 1990s and frankly there isn't a comparison to be made.

Shaq and Penny played three years together in Orlando. They won 50 games, 57 games and 60 games in those three years. It was Shaq's 2nd, 3rd and 4th years in the league, Penny's 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Shaq: 3x All-Star, 3x All-NBA, 2nd, 4th and 9th in MVP voting
Penny: 2x All-Star, 2x All-NBA (first team both times), 3rd and 10th in MVP voting

Paolo and Franz are both very good players and we have plenty to be excited about with both of them.

But Shaq was a historically great player and Penny was a trending towards being historically great as well before his knee blew up.

The only thing similar about the core in from 93-96 and the core from 23-now is that it was mostly drafted players.

[eyriq]

This would look a lot less stupid if the West had actually beaten the East.

Agree with Shaq, but he is a unicorn. I sat in the nosebleed section (obstructed view they called it) in Shaq's first game against Mia and rony Seikaly. Seikaly made a career of crushing the Magic and Greg Kite. He went up against Shaq that first time and he knew his career just changed for the worse.

Penny was really good his first 4 years. after that not so good. It is why he will not make the HoF.

8 years or so of mediocrity or below. Easy to see both Paolo and Franz having much better careers than Penny.

Does it really matter if Paolo or Franz have better careers than Penny on longevity though?

It's highly unlikely Franz or Paolo will ever hit Penny's apex which came in a Magic uniform and also came while Shaq was still here. In 1996 Penny was 4th in the NBA in BPM and win shares.

This entire discussion was about how this current Magic core group compares to the Magic's core in the early to mid 1990s and frankly there isn't a comparison to be made.

Shaq and Penny played three years together in Orlando. They won 50 games, 57 games and 60 games in those three years. It was Shaq's 2nd, 3rd and 4th years in the league, Penny's 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Shaq: 3x All-Star, 3x All-NBA, 2nd, 4th and 9th in MVP voting
Penny: 2x All-Star, 2x All-NBA (first team both times), 3rd and 10th in MVP voting

Paolo and Franz are both very good players and we have plenty to be excited about with both of them.

But Shaq was a historically great player and Penny was a trending towards being historically great as well before his knee blew up.

The only thing similar about the core in from 93-96 and the core from 23-now is that it was mostly drafted players.

Paolo and Franz are trending towards being historically great.

[Knightro]

Paolo and Franz are trending towards being historically great.

We must have vastly different definitions of what historically great means because I just don’t see this at all.

[eyriq]

Paolo and Franz are trending towards being historically great.

We must have vastly different definitions of what historically great means because I just don’t see this at all.

Leading their team to wins (top two in minutes, scoring, usage, etc) while being under the age of 23.

What are you considering as indicators of potential historical greatness, and why isn't team leadership and team success among them?

[pepe1991]

People sleep on fact Shaq is one of best players in nba history.

[Knightro]

People sleep on fact Shaq is one of best players in nba history.

I agree.

I also think Penny's 1996 season is one of the more underrated in NBA history.

82 games started, 21.7 PPG, 4.3 RPG, 7.1 APG, 2.0 APG, .513 FG%, .767 FT% on 7.1 attempts per game.

+13.3 +/- NET/100
14.4 win shares (4th in NBA)
7.2 BPM (4th in NBA)
6.2 OBPM (2nd in NBA)
6.9 VORP (4th in NBA)
1st Team All-NBA
3rd in MVP voting

On a team that went 60-22. And on top of that, Shaq missed 28 games that year and the Magic still went 20-8 without him.