The Case for Oladipo for ROY

[Orlwillbeback]

lol i feel like once we trade harkless, Neon will choose Oladipo to bash on a nightly basis LOL

Harkless is probably filler value at this point, no? Can't see him being worth more to us as a trade piece than as a project.

you missed the point but okay

[Reverse_Angle]

Oladipo is way hotter than MCW.

Don't sig me.

[Neon1]

lol i feel like once we trade harkless, Neon will choose Oladipo to bash on a nightly basis LOL

Harkless is probably filler value at this point, no? Can't see him being worth more to us as a trade piece than as a project.

you missed the point but okay

Why is that? Because I don't agree he earned winning the R.O.Y. simply because he is the guy wearing the Magic uniform? Oladipo is an actual legit player.

[Orlwillbeback]

because i can already see the roots of you choosing a new player for you to hate on, using your numbers to back it up and all having it be rooted in your originally high expectations for him followed by consistent hating out of utter disappointment.

[Neon1]

because i can already see the roots of you choosing a new player for you to hate on, using your numbers to back it up and all having it be rooted in your originally high expectations for him followed by consistent hating out of utter disappointment.

WHAT? You think the Harkless thing is out of MY disappointment of him not meeting MY expectations?
Ill tell you what. You go ahead and do some research on that. I have NEVER EVER EVER had high expectations for him simply based on the fact that he never had a skillset. This goes back to BEFORE we even traded for him. It goes back BEFORE Philly even drafted the kid.

I mean are you new here? I AM the one that told everybody else that THEY were going to turn on him by his second year once they realize they set the bar way too high for a player with his lack of actual skill.

You obviously don't know me one bit. I didn't have high hopes for Dipo either BTW, he has shown MORE then I expected he could do, that doesn't mean I thought he could do a whole lot coming out either, I thought he was more limited then he's shown so far.

El. Oh. El. you couldn't be any more off base then you are right now. ANYBODY that's been here can tell you that I have been saying to calm your tits on Harkless from BEFORE Day 1.

[Devin 1L]

You're ignoring the second part of his statement. Part one was that Carter-Williams plays more minutes, part two was that Carter-Williams plays on the league's fastest paced team.

The raw numbers posted in the article:

Oladipo - 14.0, 4.3, 4.2
Carter-Williams - 16.5, 6.1, 6.3
-------------------------------------------
Carter-Williams = +2.5, +1.8, +2.1

If you (1) adjust to a per-minute basis (I'll use per-36 since it's the closest to both of them,) and (2) adjust for pace, then the numbers look like this:

Oladipo - 15.9, 4.8, 4.7
Carter-Williams - 16.2, 6, 6.1
------------------------------------------
Carter-Williams = +.3, +1.2, +1.4

Now, obviously, Carter-Williams' numbers are still higher than Oladipo's, and the notion that the raw numbers constitute some "misleading" view is a bit of a stretch, but the general point does indeed stand that their statistical output while on the floor is actually closer than it would appear by simply looking at their raw per-game numbers.

I'm not ignoring it, its just a stupid argument.

The author made a two part comment.

You responded dismissing the comment based upon one of the two parts and made no acknowledgement of the other.

Thats, like, the definition of ignoring something.

It just doesn't work that way. What matters in this case is what was done on the court. Even by trying to add additional considerations in an attempt to close the gap, MCW STILL beat him across the board, PTS, REB, AST, STL etc, its not close. The fact that we have to use all these additional what if's just to make it CLOSER (Not even better or the same, CLOSER) is all we need to know.

You may ultimately disagree with the conclusion that the author is making (I'm not arguing either way for what it's worth,) but noting the difference in minutes and pace is a valid point. I did not suggest that the adjustments show that Oladipo is better, nor did the author make that claim, but by accounting for a difference in minutes and pace it shows that it's probably closer than a cursory viewing of raw per-game numbers would suggest. Like I said, the ultimate conclusions that you want to draw from that (and other things that you want to take into consideration) is a different matter, but this in particular is a valid point.

Its like saying that Kobe should win the MVP because "if he wasn't hurt" he would have done x,y and z.

No, it's not, and you know that.

I hesitate to make analogies because there are always ways to find some reasons why it doesn't hold, but I would be more inclined to say that it's more like pointing out that Zach Randolph isn't necessarily better than Tim Duncan just because he averages 17.4/10.1 and Duncan 15.2/9.9. It ultimately doesn't matter who you think is better -- but it would be worth noting that Randolph averages 34.2 MPG and Duncan 29.3, if one were having that discussion.

At the end of the day, If MCW was drafted here and did what he did, and Oladipo was drafted o Philly and did what he did, nobody is screaming that Oladipo deserves the ROY. Every last person here would be saying that MCW wins easily.

I don't understand this comment.

I've never argued that Oladipo should win over Carter-Williams.

Is the author of the article a Magic fan? Post on this forum?

[doct3r dr3]

I think our best shot is if they decide to do Co-Rookies of the Year.

[Orlwillbeback]

because i can already see the roots of you choosing a new player for you to hate on, using your numbers to back it up and all having it be rooted in your originally high expectations for him followed by consistent hating out of utter disappointment.

WHAT? You think the Harkless thing is out of MY disappointment of him not meeting MY expectations?
Ill tell you what. You go ahead and do some research on that. I have NEVER EVER EVER had high expectations for him simply based on the fact that he never had a skillset. This goes back to BEFORE we even traded for him. It goes back BEFORE Philly even drafted the kid.

I mean are you new here? I AM the one that told everybody else that THEY were going to turn on him by his second year once they realize they set the bar way too high for a player with his lack of actual skill.

You obviously don't know me one bit. I didn't have high hopes for Dipo either BTW, he has shown MORE then I expected he could do, that doesn't mean I thought he could do a whole lot coming out either, I thought he was more limited then he's shown so far.

El. Oh. El. you couldn't be any more off base then you are right now. ANYBODY that's been here can tell you that I have been saying to calm your tits on Harkless from BEFORE Day 1.

so i have to ask you then,

what is your opinion of henny?

personally I think he's had mixed results.

[Neon1]

I hesitate to make analogies because there are always ways to find some reasons why it doesn't hold, but I would be more inclined to say that it's more like pointing out that Zach Randolph isn't necessarily better than Tim Duncan just because he averages 17.4/10.1 and Duncan 15.2/9.9. It ultimately doesn't matter who you think is better -- but it would be worth noting that Randolph averages 34.2 MPG and Duncan 29.3, if one were having that discussion.

If the argument is based on who you think is the better PLAYER then that is a different argument. The ROY is based on what Rookie had the best YEAR.

If MCW beats him statistically across the board, MCW was the undeniable starter for his team while Dipo was not (yes WE know the reasons why...but excuses do not matter), and both teams were trash...then imo it can't be argued who had the better Rookie Year for the award.

If we're talking who is a better prospect or who I'd rather have etc, then it becomes a different argument and discussion in which my answer would probably also be different.

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[Neon1]

because i can already see the roots of you choosing a new player for you to hate on, using your numbers to back it up and all having it be rooted in your originally high expectations for him followed by consistent hating out of utter disappointment.

WHAT? You think the Harkless thing is out of MY disappointment of him not meeting MY expectations?
Ill tell you what. You go ahead and do some research on that. I have NEVER EVER EVER had high expectations for him simply based on the fact that he never had a skillset. This goes back to BEFORE we even traded for him. It goes back BEFORE Philly even drafted the kid.

I mean are you new here? I AM the one that told everybody else that THEY were going to turn on him by his second year once they realize they set the bar way too high for a player with his lack of actual skill.

You obviously don't know me one bit. I didn't have high hopes for Dipo either BTW, he has shown MORE then I expected he could do, that doesn't mean I thought he could do a whole lot coming out either, I thought he was more limited then he's shown so far.

You couldn't be any more off base then you are right now. ANYBODY that's been here can tell you that I have been saying to calm your tits on Harkless from BEFORE Day 1.

so i have to ask you then,

what is your opinion of henny?

personally I think he's had mixed results.

I don't know anything about him outside of one thing, he knows how to assemble a bottom three roster. Can he build a winner? We have no proof yet (likely by design).

Vucevic was the big prize from the Dwight trade, but it was "reported" that Harkless was THE GUY he was targeting. If he placed priority of Harkless over Vucevic (especially after having some hint of what Vucevic was) then I question him. I knew Vuc was a likely double double guy and knew that Vuc was the prize.

Henny gets credit for Tobias but I kind of recall Henny saying that it was Perry and the other guy campaigning for Tobias. Henny just wanted "a pick" I think.

The Ryan Anderson sign and trade. I immediately said on record why wouldn't we target Xaiver Henry instead of Gustavo....it never made sense to me fit wise. Gustavo made no sense, Henry seemed obvious.

I wouldn't have picked Dipo then, but I cannot argue the pick today. I thought Noel was the better fit long term especially with Vuc (pending his medical report/one year off thing etc). They either disagreed or Noel was simply red flagged. Either way, today I can't argue the selection.

The Nicholson pick. I would have taken Wroten then PJ3 before him especially based on fit. Never saw room for yet another PF only (Baby/Harrington). Wroten looks better. PJ3 looks like who knows.

O'Quinn I didn't argue because the players I wanted were already gone. Both are currently FA. Henny dominated this one.

The Dwight Trade re:Denver add on
I didn't agree with adding salary (Harrington+Afflalo) for no reason when in my eyes we could have kept Iggy and simply let the $$ expire. Henny wanted the pick and Afflalo.

The player we use the WONK pick on settles this one for good.


-those are my thoughts on everything he has done so far (I think).

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[The Real Dalic]

Meh. Let MCW win the ROY. When Oladipo leads us to a championship, no one is going to remember MCW's ROY anyway.

[Hilltop]

Oladipo is way hotter than MCW.

Don't sig me.

Shame, it would have been a good replacement for my current one

[Devin 1L]

I hesitate to make analogies because there are always ways to find some reasons why it doesn't hold, but I would be more inclined to say that it's more like pointing out that Zach Randolph isn't necessarily better than Tim Duncan just because he averages 17.4/10.1 and Duncan 15.2/9.9. It ultimately doesn't matter who you think is better -- but it would be worth noting that Randolph averages 34.2 MPG and Duncan 29.3, if one were having that discussion.

If the argument is based on who you think is the better PLAYER then that is a different argument. The ROY is based on what Rookie had the best YEAR.

I hesitate to make analogies because there are always ways to find some reasons why it doesn't hold, but

LOL. ^This guy.

If MCW beats him statistically across the board, MCW was the undeniable starter for his team while Dipo was not (yes WE know the reasons why...but excuses do not matter), and both teams were trash...then imo it can't be argued who had the better Rookie Year for the award.

I think it can be argued, and I think that's kind of what this whole "let's consider the stats adjusted for minutes and pace" is getting at.

You're pretty much saying that because both teams were bad and Carter-Williams' stats were better, and he started more games (since when did that...I don't even...eh, whatever,) therefore he's the ROY.

But, if you dig a little further, it doesn't really appear that clear cut.

-When you take into account a slight bump in MPG and a bump in pace, their stats are actually very similar (It's not like one dude is averaging 20 and 10 while the other is at 10 and 6.) Perhaps just close enough to make it so you can't just default to "better stats = ROY." Perhaps close enough that we should take some other factors into account.

-As you say, both teams were bad, but there are degrees to that, too. As bad as we've been, the 76ers have been worse. We're bad; the 76ers tied the all-time losses streak.

-While Carter-Williams narrowly bests Oladipo in one popular all-encompassing stat (PER) 14.7 to 13.6, Oladipo does the opposite in another popular all-encompassing stat when it comes to Win Score besting Carter-Williams 1.3 to .4. (I have no idea what they look like in other all-in-one stats as those are the only two that I give much credence to.)

-We can view from another angle, too, and check out +/- where we find that on the season Oladipo is a -3.9 while Carter-Williams is worse at -6.3.

Do these things mean that Oladipo should be ROY? I don't know. But, I don't think Carter-Williams' raw per-game numbers exceed Oladipo's enough to be a simple open-and-shut case. It's too close to leave it at that -- to leave it at just raw per-game stats. And that's how we got here.

If we're talking who is a better prospect or who I'd rather have etc, then it becomes a different argument and discussion in which my answer would probably also be different.

I never mentioned anything about who was a better prospect or who you'd rather have.

[drsd]

I'm fine with MCW winning it. I'm sure Pelicans fans are fine with Anthony Davis not winning it last year. We know the (lack of) opportunities Oladipo has had compared to MCW, even now coming off the bench and letting Nelson tank around for 30 minutes.

One strength of Oladipo is that he uses the adversity of failure to improve. Not winning the ROY is, in that sense, a good thing.