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6th Man Going Forward

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6th Man Going Forward

Harkless
6
16%
Harris
12
32%
Fournier
13
35%
A. Gordon
2
5%
O'Quinn
2
5%
Payton
2
5%
 
Total votes: 37

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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#21 » by mojosodope » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:16 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
mojosodope wrote:IMO this is an example of drilling down the data too far. You have dissected his midrange game (outside the paint and inside the 3pt line) by removing the part ("left elbow") which he is most efficient. By doing so you have declared him "inefficient" when in actuality he shoots (an efficient) 40% from this area as a whole.


Only 9% of his shot attempts came from the left elbow. He hits it at a good rate on the rare occasion that he takes it.

When he proves he can hit these mid range shots more often and from more spots we can start calling him versatile.

For now, he is efficient but not overly vesatile and his shot selection shows that he understands this. Why can't his fans?


I think you need to look at the chart you posted again. U said he was inefficient when he shot anywhere outside of the paint except the left elbow...and that statement is false. Not only is he efficient overall outside of the paint and inside of the 3 point line, but he is extremely efficient from the entire left wing, where he shoots more than 9% of his shots.

On top of that he takes 34% (a fairly substantial amount) of his shots from the midrange. That 9% which you chose to isolate is actually a large percentage of that 34% making it not as nominal as you are trying to make it appear.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#22 » by Neon1 » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:19 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
mojosodope wrote:IMO this is an example of drilling down the data too far. You have dissected his midrange game (outside the paint and inside the 3pt line) by removing the part ("left elbow") which he is most efficient. By doing so you have declared him "inefficient" when in actuality he shoots (an efficient) 40% from this area as a whole.


Only 9% of his shot attempts came from the left elbow. He hits it at a good rate on the rare occasion that he takes it.

When he proves he can hit these mid range shots more often and from more spots we can start calling him versatile.

For now, he is efficient but not overly vesatile and his shot selection shows that he understands this. Why can't his fans?


He has been good in the mid range his ENTIRE career. Did you just start watching? He shot 52.2% from 16-23 feet last season. He is 43.3% from there for his career, What do you mean "when he proves he can hit these shots more often.." Is his entire career sample size not big enough? Or do you hold him in particular to a different set of standards then you do for everybody else?
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#23 » by Orlwillbeback » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:29 am

yea when i think of tobias i think primarily of a midrange, mid post, pick and roll roller and pop player. The only area where he's not efficient is from 3 but his efficiency in the midrange shows in the his overall percentages.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#24 » by mojosodope » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:35 am

MagicFan101 wrote:
mojosodope wrote:IMO this is an example of drilling down the data too far. You have dissected his midrange game (outside the paint and inside the 3pt line) by removing the part ("left elbow") which he is most efficient. By doing so you have declared him "inefficient" when in actuality he shoots (an efficient) 40% from this area as a whole.


Only 9% of his shot attempts came from the left elbow. He hits it at a good rate on the rare occasion that he takes it.

When he proves he can hit these mid range shots more often and from more spots we can start calling him versatile.

For now, he is efficient but not overly vesatile and his shot selection shows that he understands this. Why can't his fans?


Let me show you how you have broken the stats down too far and painted a picture of inefficiency that doesnt really exist

If you go by the stats, for every 10 shots harris takes,

5 would be in the paint
4 would be in the midrange and
1 would be from 3

But because only 1 of those shots comes from the LEFT ELBOW it means he takes it on a rare occasion and he isn't versatile?
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#25 » by drsd » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:38 am

I vote Harkless as he seems probable to eventually get backup minutes at the 2 and 3. But it's close as Fournier almost defines backup SG.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#26 » by fklt » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:46 am

only reason that tobias can be the sixth man of this team is because reports indicate he played more than most his time at PF last season and reports also indicate that he will also be playing there this season.

options are;
he may start ahead of frye,
he may start at SF forward only to slide to PF as soon as vuc or frye is out of the game,
or he'll be the super sub.
I think possibilities of these 10%, 50% and 40% respectively.

if he starts, then 6th man role will be on shared between gordon and payton.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#27 » by eyriq » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:18 am

I would say that short term, as in next season, the core is Harris/Vucevic/Oladipo with Payton as our 6th man, behind Fournier and Frye. Longterm, as in the next 3 seasons, I would guess it is Fournier.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#28 » by MellowRose » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:35 am

I think it would be stupid to make Harris our 6th man. Give him starter minutes competing against starters from other teams, and let him develop. Starting Frye over Harris (if Harris does play PF), isn't going to be helping the 22 year old Tobias at all, IMO.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#29 » by Inqui » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:42 am

I'm going with Fournier for now, and as the long-term guy if the FO likes what they see over the next season or two. As others have said, chuck him in that Manu Ginobili role and keep the points ticking over from the bench.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#30 » by dsg2021 » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:36 pm

Neon1 wrote:
mojosodope wrote:
IMO this is an example of drilling down the data too far. You have dissected his midrange game (outside the paint and inside the 3pt line) by removing the part ("left elbow") which he is most efficient. By doing so you have declared him "inefficient" when in actuality he shoots (an efficient) 40% from this area as a whole.


Not only that, he takes a bulk of his shots from there. Its his 3rd highest volume area. Hell Lebron gets the vast bulk of his points inside at the rim. A whopping 47.8% of his baskets in its entirety come AT THE RIM.

This is what is so tantalizing about Tobias' game. His shot chart and eyeball game shows an average to above average scorer anywhere under the 3 pt line, then he teases it further with solid 3 % s at the corners and in splits that avoid his 13 game rhythm finding and his most recent split, his post AS break 3pt %. He also raised his fg % three percent every single month last season.

What accentuates it all is
1) a great head on his shoulders who has been consistent despite jerking his position and minutes back and forth (this is a good sign tho, to still be consistent and positive). Often cited as the team vocal leader but has shown plenty of chemistry with Oladipo and the team system driving the offense. Statistically, Oladipo gets Tobias a lot of good buckets too.
2) an elite fg % closer to the rim, like 67 iirc, which means all of his drives and go to moves down low work very well.
3) He is no elite all nba defender but I think he is above average and still improving plenty, punctuated by his superb hustle that's always on. He plays defense focused. Remember a finely tuned defense system will come down the line for us and will improve Vuc's and everyone's/team's numbers. This hustle from Tobes always gives the team boards, paint points, transition plays and defensive plays. So on top of a go to scorer resume marked by above average 2 pt fg %s across most zones, he plays like a hustle big seeking garbage buckets with transition, offensive boards, cuts, and putbacks/tip-ins. Amazing.
4) This hasn't been mentioned too much yet. Tobias does all this scoring and play at VERY LOW TO rates. So if his pretty fg and ft % s werent enough, he also manages pretty much elite TO rates while doing it. Add that low TO rate with the mentioned high ft rate (with great %) he has, even better.


The inconsistent minutes and roles come back around here, because I think we will obviously need his scoring this year, especially if his shot is confident and good, and it will fit better in the starting lineup. But it's not a huge issue because he has shown consistent play when playing 6th man too. Whatever gets the best 5 man lineups out there, Tobes will be part of them for big minutes.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#31 » by BadMofoPimp » Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:47 pm

I expect Hark to start off the season as sixth man. When it gets closer to mid-season, that could change.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#32 » by fklt » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:12 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:I expect Hark to start off the season as sixth man. When it gets closer to mid-season, that could change.


you'll be surprised how much hark will go down deeper in the rotation this season. he'll be behind payton, gordon, o'quinn and other gordon :D that makes him 10th man going forward I presume? :lol:
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#33 » by Orlwillbeback » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:57 pm

fklt wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:I expect Hark to start off the season as sixth man. When it gets closer to mid-season, that could change.


you'll be surprised how much hark will go down deeper in the rotation this season. he'll be behind payton, gordon, o'quinn and other gordon :D that makes him 10th man going forward I presume? :lol:

Just wait until vaughn starts him in front of harris, like he did last season.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#34 » by Gomagic44 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:52 am

I vote for Fournier. Dipo moving back to pg when it happens.


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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#35 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:27 am

Gomagic44 wrote:I vote for Fournier. Dipo moving back to pg when it happens.


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Fournier would probably be my #2 vote.

Your 6th many is usually an offensive spark, not a defensive guy so I don't see Harkless or O'quinn in that role long term. We (or I at least) still don't know what we have in Gordon or Payton so while I included them on the poll for others, I am not really considering them at all here.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#36 » by Last Guardian » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:19 pm

Fournier. He is built for sixth man. Gives you a ball handler/playmaker off the bench, with some shooting. Not good enough to be a permanent starter, but will keep the game flowing when he comes in.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#37 » by Head Leader » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:18 pm

I really love Fournier for you guys. As long as Jacque doesn't put the shackles on him and allows him to play his game make mistakes and teaches him through them he's going to be a fantastic player for yall.

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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#38 » by Daniel Lee » Wed Oct 1, 2014 2:22 am

NEM wrote:Harkless - His game isn't suited for the sixth man role. 6th man usually brings energy off the bench and/or offensive firepower. Harkless has shown neither in his time here. As of now he is the 9th man. Going forward, he can move up to 7th, but I don't ever see him being more than that on a CHAMPIONSHIP team.

Harris - While he can play off the bench, he is our best player and most talented scorer. He needs to be starting and getting 34 to 38 minutes per night. You don't put your best player on the bench.

Fournier - He was my vote. His game is perfect for the 6th man role (something like Manu). He can create for himself and others in spurts. Because he is not the most consistent player, he could play off the bench and if he just doesn't have it going that particular game, it will not be as noticeable because he isn't playing more than 26 or 28 minutes.

Gordon - I see AG eventually starting at the 4 for us. While he would do really well as a 6th man due to his energy on the court, I see his defensive ability as a bigger plus with the starting unit. The ability to guard possibly 3 positions makes him a valuable starter.

O'Quinn - He brings energy and the knowledge of the game with a high BBIQ. However, I think he will be out of our price range after this season, so he will not be on this team.

Payton - I see him as the starting point guard on this team and on any future Magic team that has him on it as long as we don't have any better options (and we currently don't). This kid should be practicing with the starters and should be a starter from day 1. His skillset will make EVERYONE around him better.
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Re: 6th Man Going Forward 

Post#39 » by BadMofoPimp » Wed Oct 1, 2014 2:40 am

Gordon is NOT starting this season. Frye and Harris is. They are proven players. Heck, Dipo didn't start most of his games last season and he was worlds better than Gordon at this stage of his rookie career. Gordon is a project through and through. Fournier or Hark will be sixth man.
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