Game Thread: Magic (15-37) vs Lakers (13-36) The James Borrego Era Begins 2/6 7PM

[pogiro]

Never said you weren't a fan.

But let's be honest here, replacing Jacque with any of the available candidates brings us more wins than the POSSIBILITY of drafting one guy who we have no guarantee of getting.

From that one post it seemed you were saying it's not cool to root for losses and it's not being a fan. But whatever. And I don't really get the JV vs. draft question. But it seems you are saying that firing JV means more than a high draft pick in terms of the future of this team. No, I will not say that.

Well there is different ways of being a fan, I am sure you are just as passionate as other Magic fans.
When you support tanking every year it shows that you don't really have faith in the guys on our team. I agree we need rim protection, there are different ways to solve that. We are not done building this team. Getting that coveted #5 pick isn't going to make or break us compared to getting #8.
I like the players we have on our team right now, who's to say one of them doesn't develop into a star or the perfect fit chemistry wise in the system our next coach implements.
There has to be an inflection point in a rebuild, the front office planned on this season for improvement. Like I said just be glad JV was here long enough to get that single digit lottery pick.

As I said, I don't support tanking every year. But when the year is pretty much set on it's course, and there's not much value in wins any more, yes, I place more value in attaining a high draft pick. Some people act like winning now is the only way to shape good habits and a good attitude. You said it yourself, coaching is big. But you know when we can address that? In the offseason. You know what we can't do in the offseason without giving up valuable assets? Improving our draft pick.

Look at the Bucks. They changed their ways during the offseason. They went from worst record in the NBA to a +.500 team. They're as young as we are, they have Jabari Parker waiting in the wings. I am not happy JV was here this long to keep us losing, but at this point in the season I was prepared to keep going with him and replace him in the offseason. Like I said in another post I wanted to win and see progress just as much as anyone, until about 2 weeks ago. But we just ended a 10 game losing streak and there's 29 games left in the season. Again, a higher draft pick is more valuable than any realistic improvement on attitude and habits. And again, attitude and habits can be changed pretty quickly.

Look, tanking doesn't mean going out each game with the intention to lose. Sure, compete. But hey, if you're down 20 late in the 3rd quarter, maybe it's time to call off the dogs. Just like you said, there's an inflection point. Yea, this year was supposed to be the year of progress, but we didn't see it. Maybe now the best way to improve on our future is to get a high draft pick, give a real head coach an even more talented roster, and hope for progress again.

Tanking isn't ideal. It's not what I was hoping for this season. But it's making the most of the situation.

[Bensational]

at this point, with a team so stuck in limbo, i think it's perfectly fair for both sides, pro tankers and pro winners alike.

for me, i just want to see our team compete. we've got some solid young players, and as long as they're being motivated to play hard and to continue to improve, that's all i want. if the games are wins or losses, doesn't matter at this point. i don't particularly want to see anymore games where we run guys like AA, Jameer and BBD for extended minutes (poor timing with this message coming off the back of a Willie Green run) if that's how we intend on 'losing' games. that **** should be far behind us.

unless there's a Duncan/Durant/LeBron in the draft, there's no point racing for #1 at this point. i'd rather take the meaningless wins, and take a chance at finding a Steph Curry/Lillard/Drummond/Wade/Pierce/Dirk/KG/etc a bit later in the draft, especially having witness how volatile this team's confidence and mentality is right now.

[NEM]

You belligerent "win now" fans are hilarious. The point is winning games? I wonder how many games you'd be hoping to win if you replace AG with Bruno Caboclo or James Young because we didn't tank last year. The point is winning games? No, the point is building a foundation that can contend. How many games did the Seattle Supersonics win before they drafted Durant? How many games did Cleveland win before drafting LeBron? How many games did the Spurs win before drafting Duncan? You don't care, do you? Y'all get all up in arms when fellow fans are ok tanking, but then you're right there with us when cheering for the guys we're able to get as a result of tanking.

Show me the next Durant, lebron, or Duncan in the 2013 draft, 2014 draft, 2015 draft, and 2016 draft... Don't worry I'll wait

Wait a second.... so you're saying that if there was a known LeBron/Durant in this draft, then you'd tank. I thought it was about winning games. Ohhhhh, you're being inconsistent, spewing out idioms for idiots... "**** you! just win baby!"

But what exactly are you arguing? Draft prospects aren't appealing enough to tank for? Was Lillard? Was Drummond? Cousins? Who knows what the upcoming draft class will be? Point is, make the most of the situation, not tally up pointless wins that have little bearing on the future of the franchise, and do something that actually can matter, bring in a high draft pick so that we have a higher chance to get the guy that we want and not watch him become a star elsewhere.

Lillard was the 6th pick
Drummond was the 9th Pick
Cousins was the 5th pick

No one was tanking for those guys. They just happened to turn out good. you just proved my point as to why tanking doesn't work. Thanks for that.

[NEM]

if you would like some more examples, here you go:

Wade was the 5th pick
George was the 10th Pick
Rondo was the 21st pick
Bryant was the 13th pick
McGrady was the 7th pick
Stoudemire was the 9th pick
Vucevic was the 15th Pick
Harris was the 19th pick
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick
Randolph was the 19th pick
Jimmy Butler was the 29th pick
Kawhi Leonard was the 15th pick
Derozan was the 9th pick
Lowry was the 24th pick
Parker was the 28th pick
Arenas was the 30th Pick
Gortat was the 59th pick

And there are MANY more examples of great players drafted outside of the top 5... There is just as good of a chance of grabbing a future all star in picks 5-10 as there is 1-4 in drafts such as these. There is no need to "tank" because al that does is guarantee that you WONT win the top pick 75% of the time. You wanna throw away learning experiences for our players so the team can have a little bit better shot at the #1 pick? You seem to be the one who doesn't think.

[CourtsideTV]

if you would like some more examples, here you go:

Wade was the 5th pick
George was the 10th Pick
Rondo was the 21st pick
Bryant was the 13th pick
McGrady was the 7th pick
Stoudemire was the 9th pick
Vucevic was the 15th Pick
Harris was the 19th pick
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick
Randolph was the 19th pick
Jimmy Butler was the 29th pick
Kawhi Leonard was the 15th pick
Derozan was the 9th pick
Lowry was the 24th pick
Parker was the 28th pick
Arenas was the 30th Pick
Gortat was the 59th pick

And there are MANY more examples of great players drafted outside of the top 5... There is just as good of a chance of grabbing a future all star in picks 5-10 as there is 1-4 in drafts such as these. There is no need to "tank" because al that does is guarantee that you WONT win the top pick 75% of the time. You wanna throw away learning experiences for our players so the team can have a little bit better shot at the #1 pick? You seem to be the one who doesn't think.

the team has been learning for the past 3 seasons and they still suck. we don't have talent.

[MagicStarwipe]

I was pro-tank for 2 seasons but we're in a much different position now than when our best young prospects appeared to be Andrew Nicholson and Moe Harkless. We tanked and we came away with Oladipo, Gordon and Payton. I'm pretty happy with that. I believe all those guys will be really good and 1 or 2 may become really special. Tanking does nothing positive for the young players on our team that as of now are our core. Pretty sure management feels the same way or they wouldn't have fired Vaughn. We're going to get another lotto pick to add to that talent whether we tank or not so just root for the guys we have on this team to get better and learn how to win in the NBA, because if we don't it won't matter who we draft this year, we will still be way behind the curve and will probably suck again next year. And you'll probably want to tank again I guess.

Anyway, so happy we got the W as ugly as it was. Huge game by Tobias. Totally beasted tonight. AG with some massive plays in the 4th quarter too. Let's see what we can salvage from this season heading into next and not lay down like a bunch of losers and lose on purpose.

And yeah, somebody needs to get in our guys ears to not be afraid to shoot the ball. Both Vic and Tobias are shooting decent percentages from 3. They should be taking more of them. Elfrid needs to at least attempt some jumpers. AG shouldn't be afraid to shoot either if they are just going to give it to him.

[FloridaHoosier]

ok time to go on another losing streak!

We are going Wednesday and I want to see at least one game at home that they win this year! They can lose two and then they better win again.

[VoiceOReason]

if you would like some more examples, here you go:

Wade was the 5th pick
George was the 10th Pick
Rondo was the 21st pick
Bryant was the 13th pick
McGrady was the 7th pick
Stoudemire was the 9th pick
Vucevic was the 15th Pick
Harris was the 19th pick
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick
Randolph was the 19th pick
Jimmy Butler was the 29th pick
Kawhi Leonard was the 15th pick
Derozan was the 9th pick
Lowry was the 24th pick
Parker was the 28th pick
Arenas was the 30th Pick
Gortat was the 59th pick

And there are MANY more examples of great players drafted outside of the top 5... There is just as good of a chance of grabbing a future all star in picks 5-10 as there is 1-4 in drafts such as these. There is no need to "tank" because al that does is guarantee that you WONT win the top pick 75% of the time. You wanna throw away learning experiences for our players so the team can have a little bit better shot at the #1 pick? You seem to be the one who doesn't think.

the team has been learning for the past 3 seasons and they still suck. we don't have talent.

Lol...they suck, but to say no talent is asinine... Elf and a.g. are as raw as they come but they have talent , do they have the work ethic to achieve greatness? Who knows but a good coach will go along way in finding out.

Then vic, vuc, Tobias..... No talent? Give me a break those guys all #2 or #3 scoring talent on a playoff team...

[Blue_and_Whte]

2 years ago: "lose as many games as possible so we can win the lottery"... End up with the 2nd pick and draft the guy you wanted anyways

Last year: "lose as many games as possible cause I want wiggins/Parker/Embiid"

How about you STFU about wanting your damn team to lose games and cheer for wins. The point is to WIN games.. At what point do you stop being an effing loser and want to win a game????

I'll have to agree with NEM on this one. This is not the time to start playing for high draft picks. The last thing we need is yet another rookie to have to develop. At this stage we need to start winning some games and FO needs to look at moving some assets, including picks, to try and upgrade this roster.

[pogiro]

if you would like some more examples, here you go:

Wade was the 5th pick
George was the 10th Pick
Rondo was the 21st pick
Bryant was the 13th pick
McGrady was the 7th pick
Stoudemire was the 9th pick
Vucevic was the 15th Pick
Harris was the 19th pick
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick
Randolph was the 19th pick
Jimmy Butler was the 29th pick
Kawhi Leonard was the 15th pick
Derozan was the 9th pick
Lowry was the 24th pick
Parker was the 28th pick
Arenas was the 30th Pick
Gortat was the 59th pick

And there are MANY more examples of great players drafted outside of the top 5... There is just as good of a chance of grabbing a future all star in picks 5-10 as there is 1-4 in drafts such as these. There is no need to "tank" because al that does is guarantee that you WONT win the top pick 75% of the time. You wanna throw away learning experiences for our players so the team can have a little bit better shot at the #1 pick? You seem to be the one who doesn't think.

I'm not saying 1st pick or bust, I'm saying the higher pick, the better. And I'm not saying go into each game intending to lose. But what I am saying is keep the status quo that has kept us in the bottom 5 all year long. I am saying if we're losing bad late, then call of the dogs. I'm saying put priority on getting the young guys experience than winning, i.e. Dedmon, KO'Q, Gordon, Founier

Y'all hindsighters are great. In your minds, just because there are steals in the draft, doesn't mean the higher you pick, the less chance the guy that you want is gone. No no no. All you need is a little luck. Go ask Charlotte fans how their franchise has been doing after drafting Emeka Okafor #2 while watching us take off after picking Dwight.

You don't think the Heat were aiming for a high draft pick for 2003? They won 25 games that season, 4th worst record in the league. If they weren't the 5th pick they could've ended up with Kirk Hinrich or Chris Kaman.

I believe in Hennigan's ability to draft well, and his ability to get the best player available. So I want him to have as much of a pick of a litter as he can. Imagine if Detroit gets Wade instead of Darko. Wade-Shaq, the Big 3, does not happen for the Heat. The higher the pick, the less chance someone else gets the guy we want.

If you can't see that, then there's no point discussing any further.

[CraZyPraiZ]

2 years ago: "lose as many games as possible so we can win the lottery"... End up with the 2nd pick and draft the guy you wanted anyways

Last year: "lose as many games as possible cause I want wiggins/Parker/Embiid"

How about you STFU about wanting your damn team to lose games and cheer for wins. The point is to WIN games.. At what point do you stop being an effing loser and want to win a game????

Thank you. I feel the same way. I never want this team to lose. What's the point anyway. We should know by now that rookies will take 2-3 years to even develop. I don't get the losing mentality.

[drsd]

And there are MANY more examples of great players drafted outside of the top 5...

To agree:

There is also a HUGE list of top three guys that were horrible busts. Starting at a fair list as recent busts are emerging but it is not fair to Bust anyone in the last five years:
2009: Hasheem Thabeet - 2
2008: Michael Beasley - 2
2007: Greg Oden - 1
2006: Adam Morrison -3
2005: Marvin Williams - 2 (relative to expectations)
2003: Darko Miličić - 2
2002: Jay Williams - 2
2001: Kwame Brown - 1
2000: Stromile Swift - 2
2000: Darius Miles - 3

... and so on.

On average, it's about 1 player per year in the top 3 that is a bust. These are facts of history.

[axl_c_cool]

There is cases for both these arguments, I think ultimately its a mute argument because we we lose a lot of games and pick between #5-8 in the draft. The win last night was great, the Lakers threw the game away though, a 9 point lead going into the 4th quarter, they had to looks to win the game, never called timeout and made a set play, they gave the game away.


As long as we play our young core players, activate Nicholson, play Harkless, and let the whole team work it out I'm happy. We will lose a lot of games, we should also learn and Harris and Oladipo will lead the team which is only good for us.

Luke Ridnour and Willie Green need to be traded before the deadline and Seth Curry and Marble should be brought up from the D league roster, I'm open to Channing Frye staying, I think it will help to keep Tobias Harris here.


If we have the rotation below we will win 26-28 games with some big wins along the way


Payton/Curry
Oladipo/Fournier
Gordon/Harkless/Marble
Harris/O'Quinn/Nicholson
Vucevic/Dedmond

[Blue_and_Whte]

Whatever. I'm ready to compete in the PO's. If we lose, (hate to use this word but), organically then I'll take the high pick assuming we get one and be fine with it.

If you guys recall the year we traded Dwight I said I thought we'd be in the PO's year three and those were my expectations so I'm ready to start winning not baby sit rookies. Tired of that ****.

Some of you guys should of caught on when Martins and Henny said they expect to see progress so JB and the team are going to be fighting for wins.

I was really proud of our team and at one point had goosebumps when dipo ripped Wesley Johnson and slammed it down on the other end.

I want to keep feeling that for the rest of the season. This team needs to show some pride and compete not blow games because Of what Towns or Okafor might become. Time to win.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[UCFJayBird]

I don't understand how anyone can think this team doesn't have a load of young talent. Vuc, Harris, and Oladipo all look like they could be in the all-star game within the next 3 years (Vuc should be this year). Elf if he develops even a decent shot could be an all-star in 3-5 seasons. Gordon's shot looks so much better than any of us thought it would and his defense is great. He's the youngest player in the NBA for crying out loud. He could be the best player when this is all said and done for all we know, the potential is there. And all of these players with the exception of Harris are locked up for the next few years.

To say we don't have talent is ridiculous.

[pogiro]

I don't understand how anyone can think this team doesn't have a load of young talent. Vuc, Harris, and Oladipo all look like they could be in the all-star game within the next 3 years (Vuc should be this year). Elf if he develops even a decent shot could be an all-star in 3-5 seasons. Gordon's shot looks so much better than any of us thought it would and his defense is great. He's the youngest player in the NBA for crying out loud. He could be the best player when this is all said and done for all we know, the potential is there. And all of these players with the exception of Harris are locked up for the next few years.

To say we don't have talent is ridiculous.

Who's saying we don't have good young talent?

[eyriq]

I really don't get the desire to tank this year. We have two fourth year guys in Harris and Vucevic and a second year guy in Oladipo that ideally should be driving this team towards a bright future, with Gordon and Payton emerging in a year or two. If we suck (and right now we do) and it isn't the coaching (Hennigan's nightmare) then we are a good year or two behind in the rebuild than where we should be.