My fellow TB Bucs fans, I see you in here....

[MagicMadness]

Never should have fired Gruden.

[The Real Dalic]

I just started watching the Bucs last year. I'm a new fan and I'd love to join you guys on the Bucs board but I know very little of our team. Lol. So you'd have to excuse the noobiness at first.

But I only watched about 6 games last season cause I couldn't stand our crappy QB's last year. It was awful to watch and I decided I would rather watch the Lightning and Magic over them. They seem like they will take a slight step forward this year with Winston though. Tbh though, I almost decided to stop being a fan or put it on hold because I really dislike Winston's character but decided to get over it and watch the Bucs anyway.

[shadrock]

I just started watching the Bucs last year. I'm a new fan and I'd love to join you guys on the Bucs board but I know very little of our team. Lol. So you'd have to excuse the noobiness at first.

But I only watched about 6 games last season cause I couldn't stand our crappy QB's last year. It was awful to watch and I decided I would rather watch the Lightning and Magic over them. They seem like they will take a slight step forward this year with Winston though. Tbh though, I almost decided to stop being a fan or put it on hold because I really dislike Winston's character but decided to get over it and watch the Bucs anyway.

Trust me, im more of a noob than you! Only started watching the Bucs this preseason. So you wont be on your own hahaha...

[tiderulz]

Never should have fired Gruden.

you kidding? Gruden took a great team that Dungy built, won against his old team, and then proceeded to run it into the ground.

[jgosche]

Jameis looked much better as expected, not sure why Lovie didn't pull him as soon as he started limping but w/e. I was way more surprised by Doug Martin, who looks like he could have a rejuvenation, and the pass rush, which actually looked formidable against a good Bengals O-Line.

Not getting too excited yet but that was definitely a good game from the Bucs.

[MagicMadness]

Never should have fired Gruden.

you kidding? Gruden took a great team that Dungy built, won against his old team, and then proceeded to run it into the ground.

Went 9-7 the year they fired him. Bucs fans would give their right arm for 9-7 seasons these days...

I think it was more about poor management than coaching - as the organization has proven ever since firing him.

[Showbiz Bear]

My uncle is a UCF and Bucs fan. I'll present the same question here that I offered him.

You are the GM of the Bucs and the Jags call you offering Bortles for Winston, straight up... no players, picks or cash included on either side. What do you do?

For the record, he said he would take Bortles and run. Off the field concerns with Winston + solid start to preseason from Bortles + UCF alumni bias were his reasons.

Bortles. Easily. I make that deal every time. I went to Valencia and have been a Bucs fan since I was old enough to know about football. So no UCF alumni bias here.

[MagicFan101]

My uncle is a UCF and Bucs fan. I'll present the same question here that I offered him.

You are the GM of the Bucs and the Jags call you offering Bortles for Winston, straight up... no players, picks or cash included on either side. What do you do?

For the record, he said he would take Bortles and run. Off the field concerns with Winston + solid start to preseason from Bortles + UCF alumni bias were his reasons.

Bortles. Easily. I make that deal every time. I went to Valencia and have been a Bucs fan since I was old enough to know about football. So no UCF alumni bias here.

Why? What specifically do you see in Bortles that makes him superior to Winston ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD.

I graduated from both FSU and UCF. I hope Winston and Bortles both have great careers. My gut just tells me Winston is more likely to have a great career.

[MagicMadness]

I'm an FSU alum. Winston did not look all that great last year, though he did have a knack for leading come-from-behind victories...against inferior opponents.

He threw too many interceptions, had well-publicized off-the-field incidents, and almost got benched for moaning on the sidelines during a blowout loss against his team's first 'true' competition of the season (Oregon).

Needless to say, he did a lot of great things on the field at FSU. But he's got a lot to prove about his character, maturity, and leadership if he's going to live up to the billing as a star QB in the NFL. So far, he seems to be doing a respectable job of it.

[Nemesis21]

I'm an FSU alum. Winston did not look all that great last year, though he did have a knack for leading come-from-behind victories...against inferior opponents.

He threw too many interceptions, had well-publicized off-the-field incidents, and almost got benched for moaning on the sidelines during a blowout loss against his team's first 'true' competition of the season (Oregon).

Needless to say, he did a lot of great things on the field at FSU. But he's got a lot to prove about his character, maturity, and leadership if he's going to live up to the billing as a star QB in the NFL. So far, he seems to be doing a respectable job of it.

Seriously? Did you pay attention during the games? At least half of those 18 INTs were due to having 3 true freshman to throw to(along with Greene and NOL) and them not running the routes properly, and tipped passes not caught by the young WRs. Half of the 18 INTs weren't his fault.

[MagicFan101]

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I'm an FSU alum. Winston did not look all that great last year, though he did have a knack for leading come-from-behind victories...against inferior opponents.

He threw too many interceptions, had well-publicized off-the-field incidents, and almost got benched for moaning on the sidelines during a blowout loss against his team's first 'true' competition of the season (Oregon).

Needless to say, he did a lot of great things on the field at FSU. But he's got a lot to prove about his character, maturity, and leadership if he's going to live up to the billing as a star QB in the NFL. So far, he seems to be doing a respectable job of it.

Seriously? Did you pay attention during the games? At least half of those 18 INTs were due to having 3 true freshman to throw to(along with Greene and NOL) and them not running the routes properly, and tipped passes not caught by the young WRs. Half of the 18 INTs weren't his fault.

Exactly. In his first year he has 40 TD / 10 INT. Replace a 1st round NFL WR (KB) and a very good player in Kenny Shaw with freshman and his numbers dropped significantly. The tape showed so many missed routes and dropped balls which lead to fewer TDs, fewer yards and more INTs.

Sure, you can argue that he needs quality talent around him to perform well but at the end of the day he kept winning and he will have that talent at the NFL level.

None of this is to say that I think Winston is a lock to succeed over any other hyped young QB. I just don't think looking at the raw stats of last season alone is a good way to evaluate him.

[GameOver25]

I'm an FSU alum. Winston did not look all that great last year, though he did have a knack for leading come-from-behind victories...against inferior opponents.

He threw too many interceptions, had well-publicized off-the-field incidents, and almost got benched for moaning on the sidelines during a blowout loss against his team's first 'true' competition of the season (Oregon).

Needless to say, he did a lot of great things on the field at FSU. But he's got a lot to prove about his character, maturity, and leadership if he's going to live up to the billing as a star QB in the NFL. So far, he seems to be doing a respectable job of it.

Seriously? Did you pay attention during the games? At least half of those 18 INTs were due to having 3 true freshman to throw to(along with Greene and NOL) and them not running the routes properly, and tipped passes not caught by the young WRs. Half of the 18 INTs weren't his fault.

Well said.

[MagicMadness]

He regressed, regardless of whatever excuses anyone wants to make for him.

And when it mattered most (Oregon), he almost got benched for causing a scene on the sidelines instead of rallying the troops.

This is the big leagues now; if he puts up I'll shut up.

[MagicFan101]

He regressed, regardless of whatever excuses anyone wants to make for him.

And when it mattered most (Oregon), he almost got benched for causing a scene on the sidelines instead of rallying the troops.

This is the big leagues now; if he puts up I'll shut up.

Did he regress or did the team regress?

Rather than running a spread offense to create space for the QB to lob short passes with high potential for yards after catch, Jimbo runs a pro style offense which requires high level of accuracy from the QB, fantastic route running from the receivers and protection from the o-line. Two of the three ingredients are independent of Winston and rely on spots which were very inexperienced.

Like I said, it's hard to argue against a plan that resulted in an undefeated regular season and a playoff birth but Jimbo probably should have accepted the lack of experience at skill positions and eased the playbook a bit.

It isn't like we haven't seen great college QBs fall flat in the NFL. So it's still a crap shoot. But his drop off in stats in year two did nothing to hurt his status as an NFL prospect. He was taken #1 overall, so this is literally a fact... not opinion. Hence you need a different argument (which surely exists and I'm interest in hearing it) to justify other young QBs over him.

[MagicMadness]

Hence you need a different argument (which surely exists and I'm interest in hearing it) to justify other young QBs over him.

I didn't make an argument about taking anyone over Winston.

Winston has question marks, as does Mariota. So does/did Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, Johnny Manziel, and plenty of others. Even Bortles. RG3?

The last 'sure thing' QB in the NFL was Andrew Luck. Winston's got a lot going against him, as does virtually every rookie QB who enters the league. And it doesn't help that he's playing on a team that won all of 2 games last year. Like I said earlier, he's doing a respectable job of showing up, working hard, and not causing any problems off the field. He's on the right track.

[MagicFan101]

Hence you need a different argument (which surely exists and I'm interest in hearing it) to justify other young QBs over him.

I didn't make an argument about taking anyone over Winston.

Winston has question marks, as does Mariota. So does/did Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, Johnny Manziel, and plenty of others. Even Bortles. RG3?

The last 'sure thing' QB in the NFL was Andrew Luck. Winston's got a lot going against him, as does virtually every rookie QB who enters the league. And it doesn't help that he's playing on a team that won all of 2 games last year. Like I said earlier, he's doing a respectable job of showing up, working hard, and not causing any problems off the field. He's on the right track.

There you go. That is a perfectly logical post. Winston has a lot of issues to overcome; every rookie does. Some of his issues are the same as every other rookie and some are unique to him. Anyone who labels him a sure fire lock to be great is a blind homer.

Still... pointing to bad stats in one year without factoring in the change in talent around him, the plays that resulted in those stats, the amazing stats the year before or the intangibles (such as winning in spite of earlier concerns) is just silly.

[MagicMadness]

Not really. He wasn't that great on or off the field last year.

Most people wouldn't have a problem with that statement.

[MagicFan101]

Not really. He wasn't that great on or off the field last year.

Most people wouldn't have a problem with that statement.

Knowledgeable and fair minded observers would disagree with the "on the field" part. We don't have to look far beyond this very board to see that most sports fans are not knowlegeable or fair minded, so yes you are correct.

[MagicMadness]

Not really. He wasn't that great on or off the field last year.

Most people wouldn't have a problem with that statement.

Knowledgeable and fair minded observers would disagree with the "on the field" part. We don't have to look far beyond this very board to see that most sports fans are not knowlegeable or fair minded, so yes you are correct.

You are implying that I am not knowledgeable because I don't think Winston had a great season (he had a pretty good one, though).

Stats suggest I am correct. Player personnel and coach's decisions suggest you are correct.

There's nowhere else to really go; we disagree. I'm bored of the discussion.

But at this point all that matters is what Winston does from now on, with the Bucs.

[Nemesis21]

I'd like to see those of you who posted in this thread, post in the Bucs board. Link is in OP.