“I want to be in the 3-Point contest. I’m putting this on record.” - Aaron Gordon (aka post your best Seinfeld gif)

[SOUL]

I've said before AG was better of playing off the ball. And people say we're not using him right because we dont give him the ball. this year we gave him the opportunity to do just that and let him create, but nothing. He cant even beat his defender off the dribble. My point is, If people still think he can be Kawhi or Paul George, we might as well trade him now while their is still that thinking that his potential is that high. We've seen him play enough that its clear that he isnt going to be similar to those players who are possible HOF when its all said and done.

In that case, you have issues with specific opinions of AG, which I do as well. I try to temper my expectations but also want them to reach their ceilings with us instead of another franchise. That includes Mario. I do not agree with PG/Kawhi comparisons and never have. I think Kawhi is a silly comparison. PG... people heard the news about Vogel running PG plays for AG and then suddenly that became a comparison somehow. I never saw it either.

I've always contended he would be a do it all higher IQ Josh Smith, AK47, or Shawn Marion sort of player that impacts different areas but makes his real living on defense.

As for Mario, yes, I've defended him because we dont put him in a position to succeed similar to what we have given ag, elf, ola, tobias, vuc and fournier. Thats the difference.

I agree, to an extent. Fournier, Vuc and Oladipo have had pretty much free reign. Payton and AG have been messed with more than a lot of players, but still get to prove themselves more than Mario. Tobias didn't get the offensive freedom that he should have gotten.

We've put Elf and Ag at the position for them to succeed best by utilizing them to their strengths, but can we say the same for Mario? All vogel has drawn up are iso plays for dj and green. And just let mario stand at the corner, but he is clearly best utilized coming off screens. Like what vogel said he did with George Hill who had trouble splitting defenders, he deviced plays where Hill wouldnt need to split defenders, instead a hand off was designed for him. But why are we not seeing him play Mario to his strength? playing him as a spot up shooter in only his 2nd year is a misuse. I'm not saying Mario is better tham Ag or Ep, but we have not given him the same opportunity Ag and Elf did but people have already written him off.

You are preaching to the choir my friend, but this is an AG thread. My point is that none of these guys should be written off just because of other's expectations. I don't think they are untouchable. Age is not an excuse for anything, but my point is that throughout the history of the NBA... players that have looked underwhelming at 21, 22, 23 often can be really huge pieces for teams when they're 25, 26, 27. And as disappointing as Aaron has been at times offensively, he holds his own on the defensive end and wants to put in the work to be better. It's hard not to want to get behind players like him and EP and Mario when they seem like good people that want to work harder and succeed. If we were giving them opportunities like I have wanted the past 2-3 seasons, then my attitude might be different. I might be lower on some of these guys because of things I have or haven't seen out of them.. but I look at everything combined and base my opinions on that.

It's the same thing with Mario.. I think he still has a chance to be a Joe Johnson type of offensive player if everything goes right. You have Mario fans that used to say Kobe (even jokingly) or Klay and those expectations are really lofty.. just like AG being a Kawhi or PG. We all want a star on this team but it's not easy to just acquire one or draft one without a lot of luck, work, and setting them up to succeed with a coaching staff and players around them that can get the most out of them. We've failed in a lot of these areas.

[MagicMatic]

I'm amazed the 'process' with players like Giannis, Jokic, Kristaps, Kawhi, Towns, etc. has been so much more effective, but y'know only Magic fans know AG's process is 'different' right?

Well this generates two questions to begin with:

1) What's your definition of a successful end of the process? Team performance, or individual numbers?

2) What's your definition of a process?

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Let's start with #1. If Team success is the end goal, then the only player/s out of that bunch who you could say have reached a point where they're carrying their team to wins are Kawhi and Jokic. For starters, Kawhi is 25, so he's had a lot more development and he's entering his prime. Jokic is the only real game changing freak for his age amongst that bunch. That's the standard you're trying to set up, right? LeBron, Durant and Anthony Davis were carrying their teams to the playoffs by 21, so why shouldn't all the other future stars be doing so, right?

Giannis isn't. Porzingis isn't, and he's playing alongside Rose and Carmelo Anthony (who, coincidentally, also managed to carry his team to the playoffs at age 19). Towns isn't.

So if Team success is your measuring stick, then it's safe to say most of those guys are failing as superstar players.

Now, if we're talking about individual numbers, then we've got to look at opportunity. How many FGAs did each of those guys average this year (or, in Kawhi's instance, at 21)?

Towns - 17.7
Giannis - 15.8
Porzingis - 14.8
Jokic - 11
AG - 10
Kawhi - 9.1

AG has only taken over 14 shots in only 10 games this season. I'll be honest and say he likely saw more shots those games because he was 'on'. But, in those games, his numbers look like:

21ppg, 15.8fgas on 53%, 6 3fgas on 38%, 3.4ftas on 65%, 4.5rpg, 3.3apg, 0.8spg, 0.4bpg and 1.2tos

That's what AG has looked like in a KAT/Giannis/Porzingis role.

But let's expand that out beyond his 'hot' games, and look at his numbers when he's used more than his average (so anything over 10FGAs). In 24 games, his numbers look like:

15.8ppg, 13.4fgas on 45%, 4.4 3fgas on 33%, 2.8ftas on 72%, 5.2rpg, 2.4apg, 0.75spg, 0.3bpg, 1to

That's the AG you get when you use him more than his standard 27mpg and 10fgas.

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Now, in the case of #2, what's your definition of a development process? Is it forcefeeding players shots the way KAT, Giannis and Porzingis have had it? Or is it making them wait 3 seasons before they even crack 10fgas the way Kawhi had it? Because right now, he's certainly not being treated like KAT/Giannis/Porzingis, and he's currently being developed by the same guy that developed Kawhi, so my question is... would you have been calling Kawhi's development complete at 21 or 22?

1. Individual performance. Numbers. Using my eyes when I watch games.

2. Throw out Kawhi. The one of 4 examples that isn't 21/ 22.
Regardless, yes, situations DO matter. However, like you said its not necessarily team performance or being carried or whatever. Giannis doesn't need his team to make the ECF for me to see he is a next level superstar caliber player.

Force-feeding shots? If anything you are proving my point perfectly. KAT/ Giannis/ Porzingis all have WAY more talented offensive players surrounding them to take shots than AG does with the Magic... and they still put up better numbers offensively... The age argument is BS. Some players turn into Giannis and some turn into Gerald Green. You can usually throw out someones rookie year because it most of the times doesn't make a difference anyway.

Basically the point Im trying to make out of this thread is how ridiculous the quote is and how homerific certain posters are about AG. Its not about being "right" like SOUL says. I'll gladly eat crow if AG "turns into the next PG" or somehow develops some kind of ability to get to the rim through contact or create offense somehow. Here is the big question...

How much do we pay this guy when his rookie contract is up? Is it going to be based off potential and exposure?