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The Official Jalen Suggs Thread

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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1481 » by AaronB » Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:05 pm

Skybox wrote:
AaronB wrote:
Skybox wrote:
the logic is too simple-also wrong

...we've only got one pick invested in PF - but I'd say we're set with PB

BRK gave up a lot to get Simmons, but he's a cadaver...still a position of need.

What you've invested is beyond irrelevant. Focus on what you need.


Sometimes logic is wrong (like your insistance on Simons being a worthwhile target for the Magic) and sometimes it is just different.

In this case, the logic is just different and not wrong. It is possible it could turn out wrong, but it is impossible to be even remotely predictive at this point about where Black ends up as a player.

I have proposed attempting to sign D Russell (a much better fit for the Magic than Simons, even though not a defensive wiz) in the off-season, but I still recognize this will negatively impact the development of Black.

Not sure that I like that. However, the more I see Black lately, the less I like his game and his overall makeup. His jersey thing with Dick was funny, but juvenile. I'm not sure I like handing over the reins of PG to someone that immature.

If this was college or High School, OK, but this is the pros and those are grown a$$ men on the other side fighting to get a paycheck.

Black just does not seem ready to me, and two months ago, I thought he would be much more of a contributor for next year.

Part of it might be the rookie wall, but there is a reason Coach has him even below Caleb. I think Caleb takes a very mature approach to the game, even if it is unidimensional.


I'm sure it's fun to come in and incorrectly use the word logic towards my interest in Simons, but you're still missing the WHOLE point of my post...the fact that we spent picks on guards should not preclude us from focusing on upgrading our weak spot ...guards. That's kind of in line with the way a few can't understand the concept of "sunk cost"...it doesn't mean anything specifically about Black :banghead: It doesn't even imply that it wasn't a perfect pick for us. I think Black is going to be a good NBA player, maybe even a PG...hopefully, with ORL. But he clearly doesn't solve our needs today or for the near future...otherwise he'd be playing more for a team that clearly is lacking in the backcourt (outside of Suggs).

It just means that you start over, every f@#kin' day...assess your needs, your tools and assets at hand, and try to make a better team. You don't linger over how it looks, what you've spent...that's done. Maybe it's human nature by not wanting to get fired because your earlier investments aren't all home runs - but that's not LOGICal.


The problem is that you do not understand the concept of "sunk costs".

Sunk costs really only apply to decision theory when applied to fixed or depreciating assets.

I guess they might have some application to slowly appreciating assets.

None of which should apply to a rapidly appreciating 19 year old NBA player.

If Black for some reason shows that he is not capable of improvement, then he becomes a sunk cost.

If the Magic invest in another asset that negatively affects that appreciation of the asset (Black), then that now becomes a negative investment.

This is the only point that the other poster is making and is valid.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1482 » by MagicMatic » Thu Mar 21, 2024 9:47 pm

AaronB wrote:
Skybox wrote:
AaronB wrote:
Sometimes logic is wrong (like your insistance on Simons being a worthwhile target for the Magic) and sometimes it is just different.

In this case, the logic is just different and not wrong. It is possible it could turn out wrong, but it is impossible to be even remotely predictive at this point about where Black ends up as a player.

I have proposed attempting to sign D Russell (a much better fit for the Magic than Simons, even though not a defensive wiz) in the off-season, but I still recognize this will negatively impact the development of Black.

Not sure that I like that. However, the more I see Black lately, the less I like his game and his overall makeup. His jersey thing with Dick was funny, but juvenile. I'm not sure I like handing over the reins of PG to someone that immature.

If this was college or High School, OK, but this is the pros and those are grown a$$ men on the other side fighting to get a paycheck.

Black just does not seem ready to me, and two months ago, I thought he would be much more of a contributor for next year.

Part of it might be the rookie wall, but there is a reason Coach has him even below Caleb. I think Caleb takes a very mature approach to the game, even if it is unidimensional.


I'm sure it's fun to come in and incorrectly use the word logic towards my interest in Simons, but you're still missing the WHOLE point of my post...the fact that we spent picks on guards should not preclude us from focusing on upgrading our weak spot ...guards. That's kind of in line with the way a few can't understand the concept of "sunk cost"...it doesn't mean anything specifically about Black :banghead: It doesn't even imply that it wasn't a perfect pick for us. I think Black is going to be a good NBA player, maybe even a PG...hopefully, with ORL. But he clearly doesn't solve our needs today or for the near future...otherwise he'd be playing more for a team that clearly is lacking in the backcourt (outside of Suggs).

It just means that you start over, every f@#kin' day...assess your needs, your tools and assets at hand, and try to make a better team. You don't linger over how it looks, what you've spent...that's done. Maybe it's human nature by not wanting to get fired because your earlier investments aren't all home runs - but that's not LOGICal.


The problem is that you do not understand the concept of "sunk costs".

Sunk costs really only apply to decision theory when applied to fixed or depreciating assets.

I guess they might have some application to slowly appreciating assets.

None of which should apply to a rapidly appreciating 19 year old NBA player.

If Black for some reason shows that he is not capable of improvement, then he becomes a sunk cost.

If the Magic invest in another asset that negatively affects that appreciation of the asset (Black), then that now becomes a negative investment.

This is the only point that the other poster is making and is valid.


I'll help you both out...

Paolo plays 35-36mpg possibly more considering how close games are. Thats going to be playing next to a Center and Franz.

Franz is playing 32-33mpg most nights. Thats going to be next to Paolo and 2 guards.

The "positionless" basketball crap doesn't really work outside of those two facts... This isn't 2K. Also, the three guard lineups we have seen have been absolute trash when Mosely starts getting creative.

This is the same **** we heard about for years regarding AG and Issac saying they are going to play SG and SF. Nonsense.

Anthony Black is a point guard. He guards point guards and switches to whoever because defenses aren't 1:1 over the course of the game.

And no, the Simons trade idea is in the dust after Suggs has increased his 3pt % and volume to terrific levels. The back court doesnt need a sieve on defense. They need someone that can lock down the back court, as good or better than Black, AND run things at an average level at the very least. The team has an identity now and Simons is far from that identity.

Black isnt a sunk cost. Hes a rookie and looks like a rookie. BIG DEAL. He needs time to show what he can add to his game just like Suggs did after a pretty abysmal rookie season and now clearly Orlando's third best player.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1483 » by SOUL » Thu Mar 21, 2024 11:04 pm

MagicMatic wrote:The back court doesnt need a sieve on defense. They need someone that can lock down the back court, as good or better than Black, AND run things at an average level at the very least. The team has an identity now and Simons is far from that identity.


Not sure this is necessarily true. I'm not that high on Simons, but by definition of already having an all first team POA defender in Suggs legit means we don't need another one. It would be a luxury to have though. I mean, it would be nice to get a Jrue-White tandem sort of thing going, but it's very hard to do. I just don't think it's a need.

Also if Black can only guard point guard and is only a point guard, that makes his fit here iffy, not more secure. He hasn't shown the ability on ball yet where he feels comfortable or strong enough yet to break defenses down, and I don't think it's really by design. He just doesn't look comfortable. He does it in spurts. He looks closer to a Joe Ingles/Iggy sort of ball-handler right now than a guy who is on ball a lot as a guy making all of the decisions and reads like a Haliburton type, which we actually don't need too much of with how much it's in Franz/Paolo's hands.

It'll be interesting to see how he develops. Rockets were trying Amen as PG early on and his handle was horrible and he had no idea how to pace anything but just threw him at PF and now he's succeeding.

Isaac and AG are a bit different because they're clearly bigger guys without some very specific traits to make them SG/SF on offense (although they could guard it), while Black hasn't really proved any specific role yet.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1484 » by Residual-Heat » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:32 am

Residual-Heat wrote:We will sign Suggs to a reasonable extension and watch him break out into an all-star level player.

everyone starting to see the star potential now? Play offs may be where he really starts to break out.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1485 » by byeganyo » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:46 am

AaronB wrote:Dick has much better definition and muscle development.


Could we not discuss this in Suggs thread?
But seriously the last two pages are about Black.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1486 » by SOUL » Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:16 am

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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1487 » by eyriq » Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:18 am

I'll find my faith again

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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1488 » by ibraheim718 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 6:04 am

The backcourt is eventually going to be Suggs/Black.. maybe by year 3 for Black.. Suggs will be in year 5.They envisioned those two guys playing a lot basketball together. That's when they'll start contending for a championship.. the window opens in year 5 for Suggs and Wagner.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1489 » by OrlChamps2030 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 12:46 pm

ibraheim718 wrote:The backcourt is eventually going to be Suggs/Black.. maybe by year 3 for Black.. Suggs will be in year 5.They envisioned those two guys playing a lot basketball together. That's when they'll start contending for a championship.. the window opens in year 5 for Suggs and Wagner.


Black has a lot of work to do to be a starting PG on a contender - I hope you’re right
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1490 » by MagicMatic » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:12 pm

SOUL wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:The back court doesnt need a sieve on defense. They need someone that can lock down the back court, as good or better than Black, AND run things at an average level at the very least. The team has an identity now and Simons is far from that identity.


Not sure this is necessarily true. I'm not that high on Simons, but by definition of already having an all first team POA defender in Suggs legit means we don't need another one. It would be a luxury to have though. I mean, it would be nice to get a Jrue-White tandem sort of thing going, but it's very hard to do. I just don't think it's a need.

Also if Black can only guard point guard and is only a point guard, that makes his fit here iffy, not more secure. He hasn't shown the ability on ball yet where he feels comfortable or strong enough yet to break defenses down, and I don't think it's really by design. He just doesn't look comfortable. He does it in spurts. He looks closer to a Joe Ingles/Iggy sort of ball-handler right now than a guy who is on ball a lot as a guy making all of the decisions and reads like a Haliburton type, which we actually don't need too much of with how much it's in Franz/Paolo's hands.

It'll be interesting to see how he develops. Rockets were trying Amen as PG early on and his handle was horrible and he had no idea how to pace anything but just threw him at PF and now he's succeeding.

Isaac and AG are a bit different because they're clearly bigger guys without some very specific traits to make them SG/SF on offense (although they could guard it), while Black hasn't really proved any specific role yet.


I didn’t say he can only guard point guards. I’m saying he’s merely a defender, that loses positional advantage, when he’s not.

There’s a reason why Cole isn’t starting at point guard and Mosely would rather start Gary Harris with Suggs. It’s because he values defense and consistency. There’s no way Simons, who doesn’t really run point in Portland, is stepping in and filling that role.

Yeah I’ve heard the arguments that we don’t really need a traditional point guard next to Paolo & Franz. I also see the offense struggle at times against good defenses to get anything going in the half court. Dare I say a bottom 10 offense that isnt entirely due to poor shooting. Whether you want to chalk that up to Mosely or the talent is your prerogative. If you think it’s the talent, then I’d assume you’d want a point guard that can actually run things.

Most rookies are raw and don’t look 100% comfortable. If the FO drafted Black to be a SG/SF off the bench, then they wasted the pick. I don’t believe Black is going to be utilized that way simply because people on the forum want a player with Simons skillset instead.

Back to the topic of the thread…

This was all the same argument about Suggs coming off the bench for Simons because he couldn’t shoot. Looks familiar.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1491 » by Def Swami » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:20 pm

Already thinking of Suggs in Madison Square Garden on prime time national TV. :lol:
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1492 » by tiderulz » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:38 pm

Def Swami wrote:Already thinking of Suggs in Madison Square Garden on prime time national TV. :lol:

ehh, i dont know why people always talk about "Madison Square Garden" like its some special place. yeah, basketball arena in one of the bigger cities in the world. So what, Knicks have sucked for decades. Pauley Pavillion was the mecca of college basketball for years, no one talks about playing there. or the craziness that used to be at Duke and UNC.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1493 » by JoshuaPotter » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:42 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Def Swami wrote:Already thinking of Suggs in Madison Square Garden on prime time national TV. :lol:

ehh, i dont know why people always talk about "Madison Square Garden" like its some special place. yeah, basketball arena in one of the bigger cities in the world. So what, Knicks have sucked for decades. Pauley Pavillion was the mecca of college basketball for years, no one talks about playing there. or the craziness that used to be at Duke and UNC.


Maybe because that is our literal matchup right now?
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1494 » by JoshuaPotter » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:43 pm

OrlChamps2030 wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:The backcourt is eventually going to be Suggs/Black.. maybe by year 3 for Black.. Suggs will be in year 5.They envisioned those two guys playing a lot basketball together. That's when they'll start contending for a championship.. the window opens in year 5 for Suggs and Wagner.


Black has a lot of work to do to be a starting PG on a contender - I hope you’re right


Suggs / Franz / Paolo don't nor haven't put in any work at all? :dontknow:
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1495 » by JoshuaPotter » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:45 pm

Suggs is looking like he is the 3rd option I keep talking about needing right now. The fact that he is doing what he is doing and playing stellar defense is beyond amazing.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1496 » by The-Stallion70 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:47 pm

tiderulz wrote:
Def Swami wrote:Already thinking of Suggs in Madison Square Garden on prime time national TV. :lol:

ehh, i dont know why people always talk about "Madison Square Garden" like its some special place. yeah, basketball arena in one of the bigger cities in the world. So what, Knicks have sucked for decades. Pauley Pavillion was the mecca of college basketball for years, no one talks about playing there. or the craziness that used to be at Duke and UNC.


I see what you're saying but fact is that ESPN covers all things Knicks Knicks Knicks all the time.

It does not feel fair that fans of other teams have to watch Knicks stuff when they turn on the national leader in sports news on TV. I know more about the Knicks than I would ever care to know.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1497 » by MagicMatic » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:48 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:The backcourt is eventually going to be Suggs/Black.. maybe by year 3 for Black.. Suggs will be in year 5.They envisioned those two guys playing a lot basketball together. That's when they'll start contending for a championship.. the window opens in year 5 for Suggs and Wagner.


Black has a lot of work to do to be a starting PG on a contender - I hope you’re right


Suggs / Franz / Paolo don't nor haven't put in any work at all? :dontknow:


Suggs being public enemy #1 in New York makes sense.
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1498 » by Skybox » Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:54 pm

MagicMatic wrote:
JoshuaPotter wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
Black has a lot of work to do to be a starting PG on a contender - I hope you’re right


Suggs / Franz / Paolo don't nor haven't put in any work at all? :dontknow:


Suggs being public enemy #1 in New York makes sense.


Exactly - and he'll relish it. He's built for it, he's a legitimately tough player...and, it's looking like the likely first-round matchup, so strap in. :nod:
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1499 » by OrlChamps2030 » Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:57 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:The backcourt is eventually going to be Suggs/Black.. maybe by year 3 for Black.. Suggs will be in year 5.They envisioned those two guys playing a lot basketball together. That's when they'll start contending for a championship.. the window opens in year 5 for Suggs and Wagner.


Black has a lot of work to do to be a starting PG on a contender - I hope you’re right


Suggs / Franz / Paolo don't nor haven't put in any work at all? :dontknow:


What do you mean?
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Re: The Official Jalen Suggs Thread 

Post#1500 » by JoshuaPotter » Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:18 pm

OrlChamps2030 wrote:
JoshuaPotter wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
Black has a lot of work to do to be a starting PG on a contender - I hope you’re right


Suggs / Franz / Paolo don't nor haven't put in any work at all? :dontknow:


What do you mean?


Exactly what I said? Let me go check my pulse.

Nobody is saying that Black is ready to step in today.

But if we are saying your line.

"Player X has a lot of work to do to be starting Y position on a contender" could apply to every single player on our team today.

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