2023-2024 Regular Season Game 50: Orlando Magic (26-23) at Detroit Pistons (6-42) - 3pm

[Knightro]

Serious question…

Is Black injured or something? Why is our rookie not getting minutes against the worst team in the league?

Are you going to tell me Black, Howard, and Houstan couldn’t get minutes in this one but we needed Fultz to play 25 minutes of 4 on 5 basketball?

Weltman better **** do something because this is ridiculous.

It's the same reason Goga isn't playing. Black is just not in the rotation when everyone is healthy. He wasn't at the start of the season and he isn't now.

No matter how much people dislike Fultz and Cole, if they're healthy, they're both playing. End of story.

[Knightro]

How do you equate playing youth to losses? Nobody is suggesting not playing Franz, Paolo, and Suggs.

You make it sound like Detroit is fielding a team of savvy vets that can close out games correctly.

I like how AB is starting for a 9 game win streak and the takeaway for not playing him against Detroit instead of Fultz is… yOu wAnT tO lOsE?!? Spare me. It’s exactly the game he should be playing against sub-par nba talent.

I mean you know this isn't really how it works though.

No coach is going to jerk around his rotation to accommodate third string players just because his team is playing a lesser opponent.

The rotation is the rotation regardless of opponent. And until one of Fultz, Cole or Gary is either hurt again or off the roster entirely, Black isn't going to play.

[JoshuaPotter]

What I am partially leaning into by looking at this. Are we a team that is just going to have a 1+2 punch followed by a slew of 3&D guys?

Is the end game Paolo avg 30ppg / Franz 25ppg surrounded by shooters. We haven't done that yet, but presumably you can see where Mose tried in lineups with Okeke and Houstan (hurl).

I'm not ready to say that we don't have a legit 3rd scoring option on our team. I just thought he would appear by now.

Suggs to me is still our unquestioned 3rd best player.

[Knightro]

What I am partially leaning into by looking at this. Are we a team that is just going to have a 1+2 punch followed by a slew of 3&D guys?

Is the end game Paolo avg 30ppg / Franz 25ppg surrounded by shooters. We haven't done that yet, but presumably you can see where Mose tried in lineups with Okeke and Houstan (hurl).

I'm not ready to say that we don't have a legit 3rd scoring option on our team. I just thought he would appear by now.

Suggs to me is still our unquestioned 3rd best player.

I don't think the Magic have their long-term third scoring option yet.

I love so much of what Suggs brings to the table as a defender and as an energy player, and his 3PT shot is developing quite nicely. But his ball handling is still so below average that it just doesn't feel like he's ever going to be able to level up to more than like a 13-15 PPG guy really.

Carter is what he is. There's no big offensive explosion coming there.

Black has always projected to be more of a high floor gap filler type than a high end scorer, so it's not coming there.

It seems like that third guy is going to have to come via trade or free agency.

[MagicMatic]

How do you equate playing youth to losses? Nobody is suggesting not playing Franz, Paolo, and Suggs.

You make it sound like Detroit is fielding a team of savvy vets that can close out games correctly.

I like how AB is starting for a 9 game win streak and the takeaway for not playing him against Detroit instead of Fultz is… yOu wAnT tO lOsE?!? Spare me. It’s exactly the game he should be playing against sub-par nba talent.

I mean you know this isn't really how it works though.

No coach is going to jerk around his rotation to accommodate third string players just because his team is playing a lesser opponent.

The rotation is the rotation regardless of opponent. And until one of Fultz, Cole or Gary is either hurt again or off the roster entirely, Black isn't going to play.

Cool, but why? They aren’t playing well at all.

It isn’t a conversation if they are.

So it’s either political or Mosely is stupid. Pick one.

[89Magicfan]

What I am partially leaning into by looking at this. Are we a team that is just going to have a 1+2 punch followed by a slew of 3&D guys?

Is the end game Paolo avg 30ppg / Franz 25ppg surrounded by shooters. We haven't done that yet, but presumably you can see where Mose tried in lineups with Okeke and Houstan (hurl).

I'm not ready to say that we don't have a legit 3rd scoring option on our team. I just thought he would appear by now.

Suggs to me is still our unquestioned 3rd best player.

I don't think the Magic have their long-term third scoring option yet.

I love so much of what Suggs brings to the table as a defender and as an energy player, and his 3PT shot is developing quite nicely. But his ball handling is still so below average that it just doesn't feel like he's ever going to be able to level up to more than like a 13-15 PPG guy really.

Carter is what he is. There's no big offensive explosion coming there.

Black has always projected to be more of a high floor gap filler type than a high end scorer, so it's not coming there.

It seems like that third guy is going to have to come via trade or free agency.

Yup and that’s fine. It’s quite alright to have Suggs being that kind of player in your lineup. Just be honest and acknowledge that Fultz isn’t your guy and start the process to get that guy when the opportunity presents itself. Right now there are opportunities.

[JoshuaPotter]

How do you equate playing youth to losses? Nobody is suggesting not playing Franz, Paolo, and Suggs.

You make it sound like Detroit is fielding a team of savvy vets that can close out games correctly.

I like how AB is starting for a 9 game win streak and the takeaway for not playing him against Detroit instead of Fultz is… yOu wAnT tO lOsE?!? Spare me. It’s exactly the game he should be playing against sub-par nba talent.

I mean you know this isn't really how it works though.

No coach is going to jerk around his rotation to accommodate third string players just because his team is playing a lesser opponent.

The rotation is the rotation regardless of opponent. And until one of Fultz, Cole or Gary is either hurt again or off the roster entirely, Black isn't going to play.

Cool, but why? They aren’t playing well at all.

It isn’t a conversation if they are.

So it’s either political or Mosely is stupid. Pick one.

I think this is semantics friend. We both feel like the sun has set on Fultz + Gary in their tenure here for sure. If you donate all of the minutes to Black singularly though he will make mistakes that end up costing us games when data is analyzed in its totality.

This isn't to say that Fultz + Gary are these great players. They as veterans are just out there minimizing mistakes. But how those mistakes are measured we would both agree are semantics. Because I think we would both rather suffer and let our 6th pick develop then another game of Fultz + Gary.

The goal is to win now with less then stellar guard rotation while not playing our presumed next guard rotation. In the end, this seems stupid. (We picked one.) Unless you tell me it has to be political. I doubt it. Fultz + Gary value is inherent to their expiring contract + reputation at this point regardless of the value they bring as individual players.

[JoshuaPotter]

What I am partially leaning into by looking at this. Are we a team that is just going to have a 1+2 punch followed by a slew of 3&D guys?

Is the end game Paolo avg 30ppg / Franz 25ppg surrounded by shooters. We haven't done that yet, but presumably you can see where Mose tried in lineups with Okeke and Houstan (hurl).

I'm not ready to say that we don't have a legit 3rd scoring option on our team. I just thought he would appear by now.

Suggs to me is still our unquestioned 3rd best player.

I don't think the Magic have their long-term third scoring option yet.

I love so much of what Suggs brings to the table as a defender and as an energy player, and his 3PT shot is developing quite nicely. But his ball handling is still so below average that it just doesn't feel like he's ever going to be able to level up to more than like a 13-15 PPG guy really.

Carter is what he is. There's no big offensive explosion coming there.

Black has always projected to be more of a high floor gap filler type than a high end scorer, so it's not coming there.

It seems like that third guy is going to have to come via trade or free agency.

Yup and that’s fine. It’s quite alright to have Suggs being that kind of player in your lineup. Just be honest and acknowledge that Fultz isn’t your guy and start the process to get that guy when the opportunity presents itself. Right now there are opportunities.

I think our guy is Black based on the roster construction. The challenge with Black being he seems to be on a very very short leash. Here is hoping we see more of him in summer league because I for one would rather him be sent to G League with Jett then watch him collect DNP-CD on a team where he legitimately brings as much or more then certain rotational players.

I'd sing a completely different tune if the Fultz we had was last years Fultz. It's not. So I am not. I do not think we are dealing for a better PG. So my question is, what are we waiting for? Paolo + Franz may be developing super fast but developing Black as P+F+anything that resembles an NBA point guard should still carry us to .500 ball. (Checks notes, 26-23)

[Knightro]

Cool, but why? They aren’t playing well at all.

It isn’t a conversation if they are.

So it’s either political or Mosely is stupid. Pick one.

It's clearly Weltman's fault for trying to take two paths (aka be competitive, but not cash in assets to REALLY be competitive at a high level), but it's also not as sinister as you're making it out to be.

Guys who have been on teams longer and make more money play over younger guys all the time.

You'd have a better argument if the team's record was bad and they were still playing veterans over youth.

[eyriq]

What I am partially leaning into by looking at this. Are we a team that is just going to have a 1+2 punch followed by a slew of 3&D guys?

Is the end game Paolo avg 30ppg / Franz 25ppg surrounded by shooters. We haven't done that yet, but presumably you can see where Mose tried in lineups with Okeke and Houstan (hurl).

I'm not ready to say that we don't have a legit 3rd scoring option on our team. I just thought he would appear by now.

Suggs to me is still our unquestioned 3rd best player.

I don't think the Magic have their long-term third scoring option yet.

I love so much of what Suggs brings to the table as a defender and as an energy player, and his 3PT shot is developing quite nicely. But his ball handling is still so below average that it just doesn't feel like he's ever going to be able to level up to more than like a 13-15 PPG guy really.

Carter is what he is. There's no big offensive explosion coming there.

Black has always projected to be more of a high floor gap filler type than a high end scorer, so it's not coming there.

It seems like that third guy is going to have to come via trade or free agency.

If Suggs ain't it that's a setback.

[89Magicfan]

I don't think the Magic have their long-term third scoring option yet.

I love so much of what Suggs brings to the table as a defender and as an energy player, and his 3PT shot is developing quite nicely. But his ball handling is still so below average that it just doesn't feel like he's ever going to be able to level up to more than like a 13-15 PPG guy really.

Carter is what he is. There's no big offensive explosion coming there.

Black has always projected to be more of a high floor gap filler type than a high end scorer, so it's not coming there.

It seems like that third guy is going to have to come via trade or free agency.

Yup and that’s fine. It’s quite alright to have Suggs being that kind of player in your lineup. Just be honest and acknowledge that Fultz isn’t your guy and start the process to get that guy when the opportunity presents itself. Right now there are opportunities.

I think our guy is Black based on the roster construction. The challenge with Black being he seems to be on a very very short leash. Here is hoping we see more of him in summer league because I for one would rather him be sent to G League with Jett then watch him collect DNP-CD on a team where he legitimately brings as much or more then certain rotational players.

I'd sing a completely different tune if the Fultz we had was last years Fultz. It's not. So I am not. I do not think we are dealing for a better PG. So my question is, what are we waiting for? Paolo + Franz may be developing super fast but developing Black as P+F+anything that resembles an NBA point guard should still carry us to .500 ball. (Checks notes, 26-23)

That’s a crap shoot though. I mean to hold onto what doesn’t work for the hopes the other does in time is not good GMing. You find a guy who does and continue to improve if need to be.

[Knightro]

If Suggs ain't it that's a setback.

I don't think so.

Suggs can be what he is right now for the rest of his career (12-3-2-1.5-0.5 and making 38% of his 3PT with A+ defense and energy) and be a super valuable 20M per year player.

Even if his improvements moving forward are subtle, he's already valuable.

[JoshuaPotter]

Yup and that’s fine. It’s quite alright to have Suggs being that kind of player in your lineup. Just be honest and acknowledge that Fultz isn’t your guy and start the process to get that guy when the opportunity presents itself. Right now there are opportunities.

I think our guy is Black based on the roster construction. The challenge with Black being he seems to be on a very very short leash. Here is hoping we see more of him in summer league because I for one would rather him be sent to G League with Jett then watch him collect DNP-CD on a team where he legitimately brings as much or more then certain rotational players.

I'd sing a completely different tune if the Fultz we had was last years Fultz. It's not. So I am not. I do not think we are dealing for a better PG. So my question is, what are we waiting for? Paolo + Franz may be developing super fast but developing Black as P+F+anything that resembles an NBA point guard should still carry us to .500 ball. (Checks notes, 26-23)

That’s a crap shoot though. I mean to hold onto what doesn’t work for the hopes the other does in time is not good GMing. You find a guy who does and continue to improve if need to be.

Isn't that exactly the position we are in by definition? "Not good GMing".

[89Magicfan]

I think our guy is Black based on the roster construction. The challenge with Black being he seems to be on a very very short leash. Here is hoping we see more of him in summer league because I for one would rather him be sent to G League with Jett then watch him collect DNP-CD on a team where he legitimately brings as much or more then certain rotational players.

I'd sing a completely different tune if the Fultz we had was last years Fultz. It's not. So I am not. I do not think we are dealing for a better PG. So my question is, what are we waiting for? Paolo + Franz may be developing super fast but developing Black as P+F+anything that resembles an NBA point guard should still carry us to .500 ball. (Checks notes, 26-23)

That’s a crap shoot though. I mean to hold onto what doesn’t work for the hopes the other does in time is not good GMing. You find a guy who does and continue to improve if need to be.

Isn't that exactly the position we are in by definition? "Not good GMing".

Eh. Record wise no over the last how many years. Now is where their jobs are really going to be judge. You got your star player. You have an argumentative second option in Franz. Now what? Well you find the guys you need to build around the core. If they’re sitting there saying well let’s roll with Fultz (hasn’t worked and won’t work) and hope AB fills becomes that (might or might not work) then yes. Not good GMing.

[MagicMatic]

Cool, but why? They aren’t playing well at all.

It isn’t a conversation if they are.

So it’s either political or Mosely is stupid. Pick one.

It's clearly Weltman's fault for trying to take two paths (aka be competitive, but not cash in assets to REALLY be competitive at a high level), but it's also not as sinister as you're making it out to be.

Guys who have been on teams longer and make more money play over younger guys all the time.

You'd have a better argument if the team's record was bad and they were still playing veterans over youth.

Right but WHY is the teams record good right now?

Is it because we started Fultz and Carter for the majority of the season?

Cole has regressed and Gary barely shows up 1/5 games. So I don’t know man. It’s seems glaringly political. Even moreso pretty stupid should they not make a move at the deadline and this was “showcasing”.

But you and I agree that they didn’t pick a path and this is the outcome.

[eyriq]

If Suggs ain't it that's a setback.

I don't think so.

Suggs can be what he is right now for the rest of his career (12-3-2-1.5-0.5 and making 38% of his 3PT with A+ defense and energy) and be a super valuable 20M per year player.

Even if his improvements moving forward are subtle, he's already valuable.

He's at 20% usage already, he just needs more minutes overall. I think he's close but Mosley is holding him back.

[Knightro]

Right but WHY is the teams record good right now?

Is it because we started Fultz and Carter for the majority of the season?

I think it's a little unfair to ding those guys for games they missed because of injuries rather than games the team might have lost due to ineffectiveness, right?

The Black/Goga lineup went 12-8 together in 20 games.

But the current Fultz/Carter starting lineup is 7-3 in 10 games together.

It stands to reason that the Fultz/Carter lineup might have done *better* than 12-8 had they been healthy.

[JoshuaPotter]

Cool, but why? They aren’t playing well at all.

It isn’t a conversation if they are.

So it’s either political or Mosely is stupid. Pick one.

It's clearly Weltman's fault for trying to take two paths (aka be competitive, but not cash in assets to REALLY be competitive at a high level), but it's also not as sinister as you're making it out to be.

Guys who have been on teams longer and make more money play over younger guys all the time.

You'd have a better argument if the team's record was bad and they were still playing veterans over youth.

Right but WHY is the teams record good right now?

Is it because we started Fultz and Carter for the majority of the season?

Cole has regressed and Gary barely shows up 1/5 games. So I don’t know man. It’s seems glaringly political. Even moreso pretty stupid should they not make a move at the deadline and this was “showcasing”.

But you and I agree that they didn’t pick a path and this is the outcome.

The only positive outlook regarding the Fultz vs Black thing.

If we lose, whomever is starting or playing the majority PG position minutes will get the blame.

Much like how we saw our record slip. I didn't freak out because on paper we are still well into the development face of our team and it might be more reasonable to suggest that "next year" is the playoffs year.

If for example Fultz was mysteriously injured the remainder of the year and Black got the starting minutes. If we failed to make the playoffs or play-ins I wouldn't be putting it on Black, just the last development year before we expect Jett + Black + Suggs + Cole + Paolo + Franz team to begin wrecking the league.

But plenty of other people on the forum would put the blame on our youth / rookies when to me there isn't anything to blame in development our BPA's.

[MagicMatic]

It's clearly Weltman's fault for trying to take two paths (aka be competitive, but not cash in assets to REALLY be competitive at a high level), but it's also not as sinister as you're making it out to be.

Guys who have been on teams longer and make more money play over younger guys all the time.

You'd have a better argument if the team's record was bad and they were still playing veterans over youth.

Right but WHY is the teams record good right now?

Is it because we started Fultz and Carter for the majority of the season?

Cole has regressed and Gary barely shows up 1/5 games. So I don’t know man. It’s seems glaringly political. Even moreso pretty stupid should they not make a move at the deadline and this was “showcasing”.

But you and I agree that they didn’t pick a path and this is the outcome.

The only positive outlook regarding the Fultz vs Black thing.

If we lose, whomever is starting or playing the majority PG position minutes will get the blame.

Much like how we saw our record slip. I didn't freak out because on paper we are still well into the development face of our team and it might be more reasonable to suggest that "next year" is the playoffs year.

If for example Fultz was mysteriously injured the remainder of the year and Black got the starting minutes. If we failed to make the playoffs or play-ins I wouldn't be putting it on Black, just the last development year before we expect Jett + Black + Suggs + Cole + Paolo + Franz team to begin wrecking the league.

But plenty of other people on the forum would put the blame on our youth / rookies when to me there isn't anything to blame in development our BPA's.

I mean it’s whatever. Black is a rookie and rookies are rarely good.

It’s just annoying that guys that probably shouldn’t and won’t be on the team next season are playing when guys that will absolutely be here 100% get zero minutes against the saddest team in the league.

It’s not like we are talking about playing against the Nuggets, Bucks, Celtics, or OKC for context. I could understand that argument at least.

[Knightro]

I mean it’s whatever. Black is a rookie and rookies are rarely good.

It’s just annoying that guys that probably shouldn’t and won’t be on the team next season are playing when guys that will absolutely be here 100% get zero minutes against the saddest team in the league.

It’s not like we are talking about playing against the Nuggets, Bucks, Celtics, or OKC for context. I could understand that argument at least.

I wouldn't be so sure of this