2023-2024 Regular Season Game 65: Indiana Pacers (35-29) at Orlando Magic (37-27) - 6pm

[zaymon]

3 point shooting is important but not everything. We had two good shooters in the backcourt and offense looked bad. Thats why we need guard who can handle the ball and penetrate more than pure shooter. I think theory that we need only shhoters around Paolo and Franz is false. We need different tools to attack defenses.

[Knightro]

I'm what context is this fools gold??

Here's what I interpret you're getting at: "Executives should have replaced Fultz and they didn't and now we got this fools gold top 6 performance. I told you so."

Doesn't work like that brother. Doesn't mean you're wrong that they should have replaced Fultz, he clearly regressed. But saying this is fool's gold doesn't cut it. The defense is legit, not sure what you think is fraudulent there. Paolo is an all-star, Franz is a two-way rising star, Suggs is a two-way stud. So again, not sure what you think is fraudulent there. This team is well coached and has one of the best young cores of all time to build around.

When I say the Magic are a little bit of fool's gold this year, I mean that they are not actually as good as their record would indicate.

They could end up being the 4th seed while actually being like the 8th best team in the Eastern Conference.

They've benefitted significantly from major injuries to other teams near their level and relatively good health to their main guys.

Without the right personnel moves this summer, I strongly believe they're due for a regression next season.

It's obviously not the exact same situation, but the Magic this year kind of remind me a little bit of the Kings from last year. Sacramento improved from 30 wins to 48 wins and a 3 seed.

So they ran it back with the same group thinking they would take that step up to the next level, or at the very least maintain what they did last year. They considered themselves an ascending team. Not a team that had a spike beyond where they should have been based on some favorable factors.

But now this year they have more of a target on their backs, teams are taking them a lot more seriously, and they're looking at like 44 wins and an 8 seed because they don’t have all the same favorable factors from the year before.

[p0peye]

I'm what context is this fools gold??

Here's what I interpret you're getting at: "Executives should have replaced Fultz and they didn't and now we got this fools gold top 6 performance. I told you so."

Doesn't work like that brother. Doesn't mean you're wrong that they should have replaced Fultz, he clearly regressed. But saying this is fool's gold doesn't cut it. The defense is legit, not sure what you think is fraudulent there. Paolo is an all-star, Franz is a two-way rising star, Suggs is a two-way stud. So again, not sure what you think is fraudulent there. This team is well coached and has one of the best young cores of all time to build around.

When I say the Magic are a little bit of fool's gold this year, I mean that they are not actually as good as their record would indicate.

They could end up being the 4th seed while actually being like the 8th best team in the Eastern Conference.

They've benefitted significantly from major injuries to other teams near their level and relatively good health to their main guys.

Without the right personnel moves this summer, I strongly believe they're due for a regression next season.

It's obviously not the exact same situation, but the Magic this year kind of remind me a little bit of the Kings from last year. Sacramento improved from 30 wins to 48 wins and a 3 seed.

So they ran it back with the same group thinking they would take that step up to the next level, or at the very least maintain what they did last year. They considered themselves an ascending team. Not a team that had a spike beyond where they should have been based on some favorable factors.

But now this year they have more of a target on their backs, teams are taking them a lot more seriously, and they're looking at like 44 wins and an 8 seed because they don’t have all the same favorable factors from the year before.

This seems hard to understand or maybe accept by some on the board. Magic are in this position because other teams are injured and East is generally weaker than West. We have improved because Paolo is legit, Franz is really good and Suggs finally catching up with expectations only by fitting into 3&D guard role.

This can only take us so far and we will slide back on the standings as soon as teams recover and potentially bring some star power from West in offseason. Routes for improvement are painfully obvious and easy to patch at the same time, we are just not making the moves. We have couple more seasons to determine if Paolo has another gear or two in him to reach All NBA status, so no big moves are needed yet.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

I'm what context is this fools gold??

Here's what I interpret you're getting at: "Executives should have replaced Fultz and they didn't and now we got this fools gold top 6 performance. I told you so."

Doesn't work like that brother. Doesn't mean you're wrong that they should have replaced Fultz, he clearly regressed. But saying this is fool's gold doesn't cut it. The defense is legit, not sure what you think is fraudulent there. Paolo is an all-star, Franz is a two-way rising star, Suggs is a two-way stud. So again, not sure what you think is fraudulent there. This team is well coached and has one of the best young cores of all time to build around.

When I say the Magic are a little bit of fool's gold this year, I mean that they are not actually as good as their record would indicate.

They could end up being the 4th seed while actually being like the 8th best team in the Eastern Conference.

They've benefitted significantly from major injuries to other teams near their level and relatively good health to their main guys.

Without the right personnel moves this summer, I strongly believe they're due for a regression next season.

It's obviously not the exact same situation, but the Magic this year kind of remind me a little bit of the Kings from last year. Sacramento improved from 30 wins to 48 wins and a 3 seed.

So they ran it back with the same group thinking they would take that step up to the next level, or at the very least maintain what they did last year. They considered themselves an ascending team. Not a team that had a spike beyond where they should have been based on some favorable factors.

But now this year they have more of a target on their backs, teams are taking them a lot more seriously, and they're looking at like 44 wins and an 8 seed because they don’t have all the same favorable factors from the year before.

This seems hard to understand or maybe accept by some on the board. Magic are in this position because other teams are injured and East is generally weaker than West. We have improved because Paolo is legit, Franz is really good and Suggs finally catching up with expectations only by fitting into 3&D guard role.

This can only take us so far and we will slide back on the standings as soon as teams recover and potentially bring some star power from West in offseason. Routes for improvement are painfully obvious and easy to patch at the same time, we are just not making the moves. We have couple more seasons to determine if Paolo has another gear or two in him to reach All NBA status, so no big moves are needed yet.

We are not in this position because other teams are injured. We rarely took advantage of that scenario when we played the .500 teams this year. But maybe we have forgotten the decade in which we sucked and couldn’t win a game when other teams sat out their star players and or had injuries to their lineup. Our team can’t shoot but the defense is legit. Magic are in this position because of the defense. It didn’t show up this game but it is present.

[JoshuaPotter]

My guys, of course we are over performing.

Next year, will be a harder year. I expect we will need our core to continue to make considerable leaps while adding players more known for health and consistency.

Also, for crying out loud, we fielded a team in the month of Jan that consisted of Okeke and Houstan as starters and the losses pilled up accordingly. So please give us a break when you mention the term "fools gold".

[byeganyo]

People just have unrealistic expetations from Franz ESPECIALLY about 3 point shooting. He was never projected to be some sniper 3 point shooter, he just had two very good ( league's average) seasons in terms of shooting.

His shooting motion is bit strange, he needs lot of time to load a shot and his arch is flat. He will probably rework some of mechanics over time but guy is 22-23 years old 20+ ppg player who has nice all around game.
Last month he averaged 21,5 ppg on 15 shots. That's efficient, even with bricks from 3.

Amen brother.

Look this loss is on management for not having a meaningful guard rotation. With Mathurin out, the Magic should have had the better SG. But nope: G-Harris has another one of his "let's play 4 on 5" games. Yuck!

Banchero and Franz combined for 34 shots and 32 pts... Maybe Harris needs to be more agressive, maybe they can try and create some shots for him and Houstan.

[eyriq]

I'm what context is this fools gold??

Here's what I interpret you're getting at: "Executives should have replaced Fultz and they didn't and now we got this fools gold top 6 performance. I told you so."

Doesn't work like that brother. Doesn't mean you're wrong that they should have replaced Fultz, he clearly regressed. But saying this is fool's gold doesn't cut it. The defense is legit, not sure what you think is fraudulent there. Paolo is an all-star, Franz is a two-way rising star, Suggs is a two-way stud. So again, not sure what you think is fraudulent there. This team is well coached and has one of the best young cores of all time to build around.

When I say the Magic are a little bit of fool's gold this year, I mean that they are not actually as good as their record would indicate.

They could end up being the 4th seed while actually being like the 8th best team in the Eastern Conference.

They've benefitted significantly from major injuries to other teams near their level and relatively good health to their main guys.

Without the right personnel moves this summer, I strongly believe they're due for a regression next season.

It's obviously not the exact same situation, but the Magic this year kind of remind me a little bit of the Kings from last year. Sacramento improved from 30 wins to 48 wins and a 3 seed.

So they ran it back with the same group thinking they would take that step up to the next level, or at the very least maintain what they did last year. They considered themselves an ascending team. Not a team that had a spike beyond where they should have been based on some favorable factors.

But now this year they have more of a target on their backs, teams are taking them a lot more seriously, and they're looking at like 44 wins and an 8 seed because they don’t have all the same favorable factors from the year before.

How old are Fox and Sabonis? It's a decent analogy until you consider our core is 21 & 22 and theirs is 26 & 27.

[eyriq]

When your core is extremely young you expect a key improvement driver to be player development. How much performance you squeeze out of them while young sets the floor. You are looking at our floor right now.

[Bergmaniac]

Bad loss. I knew we were in trouble after the Pacers made only one three in the first half yet we only led by 3. At some point they were bound to hit a hot run and they did.

I also thought Mosley waited too long to bring Isaac on in the 3rd, we were getting killed on D. He played the whole 4th quarter but at this point we had dug ourselves in too big of a hole.

When Ingles looks as lively as he did last night he should be the one running the plays on almost every possession, good things were happening almost every time he ran the pick and roll yet we wasted so many possessions where he never touched the ball and Cole or Paolo forced a tough shot instead.

The team has become really Suggs dependent since the All-Star break, his on/off split in this period is absurd (+26.6). Of course that's partly because he missed the last two games against tougher opponents, but even before this he had a +19.7 on/off, we were dominant on both ends in his minutes.

3 point shooting is important but not everything. We had two good shooters in the backcourt and offense looked bad. Thats why we need guard who can handle the ball and penetrate more than pure shooter. I think theory that we need only shhoters around Paolo and Franz is false. We need different tools to attack defenses.

Exactly. How many such games like the last 2 do we need to see before we stop with the "We don't need a real PG to take the ball out of Paolo and Franz's hands" hot takes? More ballhandling and passing skill in the roster is almost always a good thing and this is even more true in the playoffs. Paolo and Franz will still handle the ball a lot if they have a good playmaker alongside them, they just won't have to do more than they are comfortable with and will get more easy buckets to get them going when necessary.

[Knightro]

How old are Fox and Sabonis? It's a decent analogy until you consider our core is 21 & 22 and theirs is 26 & 27.

Just to be clear, I did provide the immediate caveat of "It's obviously not the exact same situation" when making the Magic/Kings comparison.

What I was going for is that the situations seem a bit similar in the respect that the Kings won a handful of games more than they probably *should* have won last year due to favorable conditions. And because of that, they (IMO incorrectly) assumed they were probably a bit further along than they really were and opted to not make any significant changes this past offseason thinking they were going to take another step on their own.

But the reality they weren't actually as good as they thought and so there's a regression happening this year.

Now if you believe Paolo, Franz, Suggs and Black's internal improvement will carry the Magic to new heights next year and beyond, that is your business, but I think it's unreasonable to expect a team this poor offensively to take a significant step forward without relatively significant personnel changes.

I think the Magic would be best served to have as many as 4 or 5 new rotation players next season. At least 3.

[Bergmaniac]

Moritz is shooting less than 32% from 3. You can lump Cole into the worst shooters on the team.

It's hilarious to me that so many opponents who defend Moe still often bite on his fakes from 3, just let him shoot, he is way more efficient inside.

[Knightro]

My biggest concern is that I just don't trust Weltman.

Until he proves otherwise, I have this sense that he's going to cite this team going 47-35 or 46-36 or whatever they end up going record wise as justification that nothing needs to change.

And the reality is, while the Magic's ultimate ceiling is going to be determined by how good Paolo, Franz, Suggs and Black (and maybe Jett) all end up being, they can absolutely supplement those guys and put themselves in the best position possible to level up by making tangible upgrades on Fultz, Gary and Ingles, and potentially even on Cole, Wendell too.

I just have a feeling the record, which is a bit inflated IMO, is going to cited as justification for mostly keeping the status quo.

[BlueBalls]

How old are Fox and Sabonis? It's a decent analogy until you consider our core is 21 & 22 and theirs is 26 & 27.

I think the Magic would be best served to have as many as 4 or 5 new rotation players next season. At least 3.

I agree. Just don’t see how we could get to that point (4 or 5 new rotation players) in one offseason. The way Weltman botched our draft last year is going to stunt the development of the franchise for a couple of seasons. I don’t know that it would have been possible to screw it up more than he did. A PG who is a huge project and a 2 who they like so little they cast him away to Osceola while we run the likes of Caleb Houstan out there. It makes no sense and it never did. Of all the parties who deserve criticism, Weltman deserves the most.

[Skybox]

My biggest concern is that I just don't trust Weltman.

Until he proves otherwise, I have this sense that he's going to cite this team going 47-35 or 46-36 or whatever they end up going record wise as justification that nothing needs to change.

And the reality is, while the Magic's ultimate ceiling is going to be determined by how good Paolo, Franz, Suggs and Black (and maybe Jett) all end up being, they can absolutely supplement those guys and put themselves in the best position possible to level up by making tangible upgrades on Fultz, Gary and Ingles, and potentially even on Cole, Wendell too.

I just have a feeling the record, which is a bit inflated IMO, is going to cited as justification for mostly keeping the status quo.

...and, if that's the plan, I don't see Paolo spending his whole career here - carrying a weak team on his broad shoulders.

[Skybox]

Suggs is not a PG...but he's proven to be best available in combination with a SG like Harris or Houstan. That's our most effective starting lineup, but it's not a master stroke - it's just the best available from a badly assembled backcourt roster. Fair enough (for now).

Suggs is out vs a team with an All-NBA level young PG and we basically park AB on the bench to start a pure shooter and a marginal 3&D guy on Hali? I don't get it...the idea that we're so dependent on Suggs as the primary ball handler in the backcourt is a really sad state.

Also, kudos to Nesmith - he's become a very formidable, energetic defender.

[SOUL]

The Kings didn't really have an obvious hole though in terms of an easily fixable thing, besides getting a player like Isaac next to Sabonis or something like that. Easier said than done though. TBH, I feel like they're not entirely far away, but a lot of it is literally just having star guys but not SUPERSTAR level guys.

Is there even an elite level West team outside of Denver and maybe the Clippers? I think people here really underestimate how hard it is to be a contending team. It's literally have a superstar, and then find the perfect #2 + role players right now.

I don't necessarily buy the "Weltman didn't do anything in our tanking years, so why would he do it in our competitive years?" - it's literal gambler's fallacy philosophy and doesn't hold any water. Knicks fans had very similar critiques about Leon Rose for years until about every move made this year was to their liking, and they didn't even have young guys to really develop like that. They just felt good about Brunson + Randle + pieces and wanted to go for it.

I mean, everybody and their mom knows we need a PG and shooting. And everything from comments made by Weltman before/during the season seemed pretty aware of our current situation and his lack of aggressiveness + us being linked to specific trade rumors (Klay) and some other smaller named PGs, and even the most room temperature IQ ESPN analyst can point out our flaws a mile away.

It doesn't mean I trust them to make the right moves or getting specific players that would fit perfectly, nor does it point to 100% of doing anything either, just saying that every season changes and seats game warmer, expectations change, players/coaches/fans etc demand more.

I feel like there's a bit of a difference between entering this year with the 5th youngest team being compared to Detroit, Houston, Charlotte, etc, with a bunch of young guys needing minutes still and figuring out who Suggs is and being inactive versus ending this year with 45+ wins (probably?) and finding out Fultz is completely broken and a bunch of guys who want to compete needing complimentary guard play/shooting and choosing to be inactive. You actually couldn't ask for a better example of gulf in offensive/defensive play than our current team.

Doing it last year is passable because we still may be a 45 win team without it and we got some important data on specific players. Doing it this year would be complete neglect.

[CocoaFan]

Can't stop thinking about how we use certain players..... Caleb has shown to be less streaky this season..... Use him, he can't just be sitting in a corner it's a waste.... Sam merril Cleveland, soon as he's in the game they're running him around screens... They're using him he just isn't standing in a corner.....too much iso for paolo and Franz....dell can't set a screen to save his life and plays too small at times.... Gary being too timid.... Joe Ingles being cooked....

Agreed. Magic use way too much iso ball with Paolo and Franz and teams know it and play zone setting up a wall of players to stop the drives. We need to get back to moving without the ball and moving the ball instead of it sticking in a couple players hands. Come on Mose you're better than this.

[thelead]

Suggs is not a PG...but he's proven to be best available in combination with a SG like Harris or Houstan. That's our most effective starting lineup, but it's not a master stroke - it's just the best available from a badly assembled backcourt roster. Fair enough (for now).

Suggs is out vs a team with an All-NBA level young PG and we basically park AB on the bench to start a pure shooter and a marginal 3&D guy on Hali? I don't get it...the idea that we're so dependent on Suggs as the primary ball handler in the backcourt is a really sad state.

Also, kudos to Nesmith - he's become a very formidable, energetic defender.

Missing Suggs these last two nights has nothing to do with him being a 'PG'. It's 3 things:

1) His defense that generates easy points
2) His 3pt shooting
3) His energy

The fact that he can handle some PG duties is a bonus.... and unfortunately a necessity with the terrible backcourt Weltman has put together.

We absolutely need to go get us a Jrue Holiday, Murray, or even DLo level PG on this roster this summer though.

[CocoaFan]

knicks fan coming in peace.. but what the fk is wrong with franz??? he was one of the better players on my fantasy team for much of the season… now with fantasy playoffs starting he’s been a liability lately.. what gives!?

Don't know. He could be playing with an injury we don't know about. He did miss 9 games with an ankle injury before the slump, but he did look good right after coming back. He just looks sluggish and tired out there right now. He's shooting under 20% from 3 in the last 12 games.

[MagicMatic]

I think it’s just funny that there are Mosely defenders here when it comes to the offense. It was absolutely terrible and didn’t need to be.

Gary and Caleb took a combined 3 shots from 3 and were 1-3 … nah… that doesn’t fly when Paolo and Franz are 11-34fg and 1-11 from 3. That’s on Mosely to draw some **** up and stop resting his laurels on the also trash defense that was in this game.

If Gary and Caleb are THAT bad at doing the one thing that gives them an nba career, then they should be moved. If not, then it’s Mosely that should be moved. The offense last night looked like a varsity high school game.