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Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga?

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Who should be the starting center?

Wendell Carter Jr.
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56%
Goga Bitadze
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44%
 
Total votes: 32

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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#41 » by tiderulz » Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:09 am

zaymon wrote:WCJ is much more talented, but has games where low energy and frustration make him near unplayable.
Goga energy is much higher but i dont see him as a long term starter. I could live with his lack of shooting, but him getting out of position regularly and jumping at every fake is too much.
I think Fultz was the real problem with our starting unit. Guy who doesnt do anything but you also cant critique him.
In the end i doubt WCJ should be in the core group but Goga is not the anwser, especially with how good WCJ contract is.

well, part of that could be about playing time which Goga didnt get a lot of in Indy. he might be trying to do a little too much just for playing time. I agree Goga may not be the answer
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#42 » by DiplomaticMagic » Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:21 am

**** it, lets play Goga. Wendell has been so disappointing.
STOP PLAYING FULTZ
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#43 » by pepe1991 » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:35 am

Goga does nothing as starter. Starters main issue is sheer volumen of scoring + poor spacing. Goga makes both problems even bigger.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#44 » by Tarheel » Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:29 am

Wendell is the better player (and better fit offensively when Fultz starts), Goga is the better fit in all other cases.

Wendell's skillset overlaps a bit too much with Paolo's and we need more rebounding and rim protection in the SL. Isaac is a better fit at the 5 than both of them, save for when matching up with the Jokic's of the league, but I doubt he'll ever be able to consistently maintain the minutes required.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#45 » by MagicMatic » Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:31 pm

Tarheel wrote:Wendell is the better player (and better fit offensively when Fultz starts), Goga is the better fit in all other cases.

Wendell's skillset overlaps a bit too much with Paolo's and we need more rebounding and rim protection in the SL. Isaac is a better fit at the 5 than both of them, save for when matching up with the Jokic's of the league, but I doubt he'll ever be able to consistently maintain the minutes required.


This. I don't know where this idea is coming from where Orlando's offense is so bad that they absolutely NEED Carter's floor spacing despite all the other areas that he lacks in the SL next to Paolo efficiency be damned.

Isaac is on the roster, so this question is inherently flawed.

Carter should be moved and Isaac should be the starter with Goga backing up his minutes should he get in foul trouble. Moe still works with Cole & Ingles. People want to spend hours in the trade thread coming up with names and Carter should be the one getting any kind of actual return.

Even if it isnt Goga and maybe a rookie C its a better use of assets.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#46 » by basketballRob » Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:10 pm

Tarheel wrote:Wendell is the better player (and better fit offensively when Fultz starts), Goga is the better fit in all other cases.

Wendell's skillset overlaps a bit too much with Paolo's and we need more rebounding and rim protection in the SL. Isaac is a better fit at the 5 than both of them, save for when matching up with the Jokic's of the league, but I doubt he'll ever be able to consistently maintain the minutes required.
Not to mention more offensive rebounds and possessions.

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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#47 » by Skybox » Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:58 pm

Accidentally posted this in the wrong thread...


A big perspective problem we have here...

WCJ, Goga, MoSwag for starting C?

Fultz, AB, Cole for starting PG?

...the answers are "none of the above". All of them have attributes. Some are worth keeping around in certain roles. Some may play a defined role now and a bigger role someday (soon?).

We're stuck with them for now-but we're not contenders, so IMO, we should be experimenting somewhat with an eye to the future at these two positions...that doesn't preclude us from competing and coaching to win every night. Nobody listed above should be a starter for us next year. Fultz, in particular, should not be playing at all -while we try to figure out what AB is and what he can be. Even if Fultz is, arguably, better than AB ( :noway: ) right now-there's nothing to learn from those minutes. The kindest thing we could have done for Fultz is trade him for srps at the TD or just buy him out, so he could explore the market.

I like the Suggs/Harris starting backcourt (for now) because it's also an experiment in "how little PG do we need and for how many minutes is it sustainable?". It, along with other lineups, could sharpen our offseason focus.

I'd like to see Isaac starting at C, with WCJ backing him up (even playing more minutes perhaps) - just to see how the dynamic works with Isaac shooting open 3's and dunking drop-offs from Paolo & Franz. WCJ is a very good player and a good deal - so I'd want to see other lineups, possibly even featuring him a little more offensively (just not at the expense of P&F). I'd like to answer as many questions as possible while still competing for a first round win...I don't think the two goals are mutually exclusive.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#48 » by KillMonger » Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:36 pm

Neither just go get hartenstein in the off-season

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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#49 » by thelead » Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:00 pm

Tarheel wrote:Wendell is the better player (and better fit offensively when Fultz starts), Goga is the better fit in all other cases.

Wendell's skillset overlaps a bit too much with Paolo's and we need more rebounding and rim protection in the SL. Isaac is a better fit at the 5 than both of them, save for when matching up with the Jokic's of the league, but I doubt he'll ever be able to consistently maintain the minutes required.

Agreed except the part about doubting JI. His minutes are ramping up but with how hard he plays, I don't know if he should really average more than 30mpg anyway.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#50 » by Bensational » Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:17 pm

I think people underestimate what Goga could do with a training camp and season playing as a full time starter with this team. He shows passing with the 3rd unit that he rarely got to show with the starters. He could be a much bigger lob threat.

Though the elite game changing C option would be someone like Isaac, which is probably closer to your Wemby/Chet/AD/Gobert level defensive C’s. Not many of them going. Maybe we need some more draft luck to get that guy? Or we have to protect Isaac at all costs - as we have been doing.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#51 » by Skybox » Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:20 pm

DAL got Gafford for a mediocre first and now he platoons with Lively. That is the picture we should be looking at. Gafford is on a great deal and Lively on a rookie one. Claxton and Isaac would be a superior combo…but a cap wrecker for that position. I wonder if DAL would consider WCJ for Gafford to give them a little more versatility as Lively ramps up.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#52 » by SOUL » Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:45 pm

Skybox wrote:DAL got Gafford for a mediocre first and now he platoons with Lively. That is the picture we should be looking at. Gafford is on a great deal and Lively on a rookie one. Claxton and Isaac would be a superior combo…but a cap wrecker for that position. I wonder if DAL would consider WCJ for Gafford to give them a little more versatility as Lively ramps up.


The deals are fine but we have a decent platoon of cheap bigs as well relative to what some teams are paying.

Lob threats/rim running bigs works for DAL because their two best players shoot a combined 17 threes a game. Paolo/Franz shoot 8 and they're both 29-35% three point shooters.

If you want a Goga or Claxton type you 100% need a floor spacing PG. Suggs-Harris with it works fine but it's still not close to enough.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#53 » by Skybox » Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:57 pm

SOUL wrote:
Skybox wrote:DAL got Gafford for a mediocre first and now he platoons with Lively. That is the picture we should be looking at. Gafford is on a great deal and Lively on a rookie one. Claxton and Isaac would be a superior combo…but a cap wrecker for that position. I wonder if DAL would consider WCJ for Gafford to give them a little more versatility as Lively ramps up.


The deals are fine but we have a decent platoon of cheap bigs as well relative to what some teams are paying.

Lob threats/rim running bigs works for DAL because their two best players shoot a combined 17 threes a game. Paolo/Franz shoot 8 and they're both 29-35% three point shooters.

If you want a Goga or Claxton type you 100% need a floor spacing PG. Suggs-Harris with it works fine but it's still not close to enough.


100% agree with the bold...adding Claxton to this team makes the offense worse. We are set up for multiple moves of significance this summer and those are the two spots that would shift us into another gear and raise our ceiling.

My dream summer is/was Murray and Claxton...but Murray's availability might be vanishing quickly. Monk/Claxton or Brogdon or Simons and Claxton might be the way. I'd rather trade for Gafford if it's remotely possible because I think Claxton's price will be artificially escalated to move him out of BRK. Now that Isaac's deal is very much back on the ledger and might even go up in a couple of years, money matters even more.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#54 » by JoshuaPotter » Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:10 pm

Skybox wrote:
SOUL wrote:
Skybox wrote:DAL got Gafford for a mediocre first and now he platoons with Lively. That is the picture we should be looking at. Gafford is on a great deal and Lively on a rookie one. Claxton and Isaac would be a superior combo…but a cap wrecker for that position. I wonder if DAL would consider WCJ for Gafford to give them a little more versatility as Lively ramps up.


The deals are fine but we have a decent platoon of cheap bigs as well relative to what some teams are paying.

Lob threats/rim running bigs works for DAL because their two best players shoot a combined 17 threes a game. Paolo/Franz shoot 8 and they're both 29-35% three point shooters.

If you want a Goga or Claxton type you 100% need a floor spacing PG. Suggs-Harris with it works fine but it's still not close to enough.


100% agree with the bold...adding Claxton to this team makes the offense worse. We are set up for multiple moves of significance this summer and those are the two spots that would shift us into another gear and raise our ceiling.

My dream summer is/was Murray and Claxton...but Murray's availability might be vanishing quickly. Monk/Claxton or Brogdon or Simons and Claxton might be the way. I'd rather trade for Gafford if it's remotely possible because I think Claxton's price will be artificially escalated to move him out of BRK. Now that Isaac's deal is very much back on the ledger and might even go up in a couple of years, money matters even more.


I know we have cap space today or at least this year. But we are clearly headed to cap space purgatory and relocating the team to Tampa if we sign these players or acquire them somehow....

At least you got why Claxton is important. Or the idea of him anyway. Doesn't have to be Claxton.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#55 » by basketballRob » Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:13 pm

SOUL wrote:
Skybox wrote:DAL got Gafford for a mediocre first and now he platoons with Lively. That is the picture we should be looking at. Gafford is on a great deal and Lively on a rookie one. Claxton and Isaac would be a superior combo…but a cap wrecker for that position. I wonder if DAL would consider WCJ for Gafford to give them a little more versatility as Lively ramps up.


The deals are fine but we have a decent platoon of cheap bigs as well relative to what some teams are paying.

Lob threats/rim running bigs works for DAL because their two best players shoot a combined 17 threes a game. Paolo/Franz shoot 8 and they're both 29-35% three point shooters.

If you want a Goga or Claxton type you 100% need a floor spacing PG. Suggs-Harris with it works fine but it's still not close to enough.
Wendell, in theory, is better, but it doesn't translate on the court. It's the same argument we had for years. We always thought we need to play Evan and Vuc more to help the worst offense in the league, and it never helped.


An inside presence may help the offense. No one wants to give Goga the inside position for an offensive rebound.

How do we know what a lob threat center would do for the offense? It takes an act of Congress to get Wendell off the floor.

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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#56 » by SOUL » Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:23 pm

basketballRob wrote:It's the same argument we had for years with. We need to play Evan and Vuc more to help the worst offense in the league, and it never helped.

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I'm speaking long-term though. It really should be Isaac if we're to be rewarded with his health for at least a year or two.

Goga didn't bog us down in the games he played really, he was fine.

But if you want to run any semblance of a workable long-term offense for Franz/Paolo moving forward, who operate mostly inside/mid-range, teams are not going to respect Claxton or Goga sitting at the three point line. They're just going to send help every time and force bad turnovers from us.

It's a bit of a chicken or the egg scenario. Either Paolo and Franz have to uptick their volume of threes and make more shots, or we have to surround them with optimal spacing. That's why it's vital to get a PG/SG to do that so we can kind of just put whoever at center.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#57 » by Skybox » Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:31 pm

SOUL wrote:
basketballRob wrote:It's the same argument we had for years with. We need to play Evan and Vuc more to help the worst offense in the league, and it never helped.

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I'm speaking long-term though. It really should be Isaac if we're to be rewarded with his health for at least a year or two.

Goga didn't bog us down in the games he played really, he was fine.

But if you want to run any semblance of a workable long-term offense for Franz/Paolo moving forward, who operate mostly inside/mid-range, teams are not going to respect Claxton or Goga sitting at the three point line. They're just going to send help every time and force bad turnovers from us.

It's a bit of a chicken or the egg scenario. Either Paolo and Franz have to uptick their volume of threes and make more shots, or we have to surround them with optimal spacing. That's why it's vital to get a PG/SG to do that so we can kind of just put whoever at center.


I agree. Isaac is better than Claxton right now....and he can switch on the perimeter like no other big in the NBA. His injury issues have kept us from banking on him, understandably, but he might be the long-term answer. Claxton can't shoot FTs or 3's. Isaac can basically be Claxton + on defense and stay out of the way on offense and just be opportunistic with 3's and attacking closeouts. I would have loved a bigger, more reliable guy to reliably play 20 mins along with him (like DAL now has). Gafford would have been just the vision I had, with Isaac being the one in the most clutch moments. I envy DAL with the Lively/Gafford combo...Gafford is solid and reliable and Lively has the ceiling in the sky (like Isaac).
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#58 » by SOUL » Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:53 pm

basketballRob wrote:How do we know what a lob threat center would do for the offense? It takes an act of Congress to get Wendell off the floor.


I'm only looking at playoff team big men archetypes.

Sacramento/Denver/Miami/Sixers have offensive hub type of centers. I'd put Adebayo in there as well even though he's a second option. He used to average 5 assists a game and they use him quite a bit even though he's levels below them.

Pacers have a floor spacing big in Myles, Brook Lopez in Milwaukee has paid dividends for Giannis's career, Celtics look formidable with Porzingis as a floor spacer threat.

Defensive first centers or lob threats with Mitch Robinson and Timberwolves with Gobert can work because like for the Knicks, they have guys like Brunson and now OG, Donte, etc. Wolves have Edwards, KAT and Reid, best shooting bigs on one team. I'd put Cleveland in here with Mobley/Allen but they have the luxury of 4 guards that can dribble and penetrate. Dallas is in here too but they're more finishing type bigs than great defenders (yet), and they have those threats in Kyrie/Doncic to feed them.

Wendell is none of these currently, while encompassing all of these skills at VERY reduced levels. He can D up some player very nicely, space the floor some games, and finish lobs some games, or he just will be a complete no show.

As for Goga, it leaves Pelicans and Clippers with what I'd say is the closest archetype for him - Valanciunas or Zubac. And they're fine, but they also get played off the floor a lot because of their size and lack of positional versatility. Solid rebounders that can play defense decently and be exploited on certain matchups. Goga's defense is a bit better than both but his offense is worse than both.

What I'm trying to say is that Zubac and Val are fine for their team's respective offenses, but it doesn't unlock much. And if we want a lob threat like Claxton, then we better have a dynamic guard that can get into the lane enough to help. Brunson/Edwards/Kyrie/Mitchell/Doncic level guys who spoonfeed them. I know if I'm guarding our team, I'll let Paolo or Franz shoot a three over penetrating and getting Claxton easy buckets. They aren't leaving those guys wide open for other teams.

And this also circles back to AB and his future. He currently cannot dribble penetrate or shoot threes that aren't set shot threes created by drive and kicks from others.

This is taking WCJ out of the equation completely as well. If we're theorizing a competitive future of AB at the 1 and Goga/Claxton at the 5, you simply cannot have a sub 30% three point shooter (Franz), a streaky 35% shooter, a non-shooting big (Clax or Goga) and a guard that cannot shoot threes at volume or create off the dribble (Black) and compete.

Suggs would be the literal only person with any semblance of fear being left open, and even he has to prove he's for real for more than a year.

To me, our future needs a more dynamic guard at the 1 or 2 (and swap Suggs for whichever we don't get), and then filling in the center position. Ideally Isaac but we can't count on him exactly.
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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#59 » by basketballRob » Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:23 pm

What I see is beautiful basketball when AB and Goga are in the lineup and awful looking basketball when it's Carter and Fultz.

We can defend them all we want, but they will get swept out of the playoffs.

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Re: Who fits the starting lineup better: WCJ or Goga? 

Post#60 » by Last Guardian » Sat Mar 30, 2024 2:38 am

I would say the biggest thing in Gogas favor is how slow the team plays. He would only help us get better at what we do already. We want to make it frustrating and slow for the other team, and give them less of a chance to have an offensive spurt.

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