2023-2024 Regular Season Game 72: Golden State Warriors (37-34) at Orlando Magic (42-29) - 7pm

[JoshuaPotter]

I mean from a pure box core perspective.

AB was +9 Fultz was -9

AB had an assist, 3 FT, 2 3pta.

Now this is usually meaningless stats. Until you saw one of your starting guards and see that....

AB had 100% more ast, 300% more FTA, 200% more 3pta.

It's laughable to just say AB can't contribute at this point and close the book. Now is he the "Godsend" I make him out to be. IDK maybe he is. I just know that Fultz minus a steal and a blk that was "oh so good to see" admittedly. I got nothing as to why he was out there.

All this to say, as I said it before. As a team we shot 52% from the FT line. 31% 3-ball against a team that likes to have 3-ball shooting contests. Frankly the entire team is to blame for the loss. Not just Fultz.

[JF5]

So your justification for handicapping the starting lineup in a crucial game, where 2 better potential starters are out, is that Orlando's bench impact is more important...

OK

The Magic have had a top 3-5 bench in the league. Which is the reason why, where they are right now.

So your plan is to essentially break a winning and successful formula and component they've had all season "just because".

It would make a lot more sense if they were losing a crap ton of games.

Thing change when you lose 1 starter + 1 role player that filled in for stretching the floor. Therefore this idea that you are OK with letting the SL go to **** over the bench success is kinda nonsensical. Guys have to step up and every game is different based on matchups. You don't sacrifice the effectiveness of the SL because your bench helped you a lot against sub .500 teams.

Again, what you're saying would make sense if this team wasn't 42-30 right now and 5th place in the East. WAYYYY above expectations nonetheless...

Your assertion of having to put key bench role players in the starting lineup is negated since they've been doing this THE WHOLE SEASON. The bench was doing this since the 9 game winning streak where they were huge and are doing it now.

And what's even more ridiculous is that the Magic since the allstar break have one of the best records in the NBA with what they've done.

[MagicMatic]

The Magic have had a top 3-5 bench in the league. Which is the reason why, where they are right now.

So your plan is to essentially break a winning and successful formula and component they've had all season "just because".

It would make a lot more sense if they were losing a crap ton of games.

Thing change when you lose 1 starter + 1 role player that filled in for stretching the floor. Therefore this idea that you are OK with letting the SL go to **** over the bench success is kinda nonsensical. Guys have to step up and every game is different based on matchups. You don't sacrifice the effectiveness of the SL because your bench helped you a lot against sub .500 teams.

Again, what you're saying would make sense if this team wasn't 42-30 right now and 5th place in the East. WAYYYY above expectations nonetheless...

Your assertion of having to put key bench role players in the starting lineup is negated since they've been doing this THE WHOLE SEASON. The bench was doing this since the 9 game winning streak where they were huge and are doing it now.

And what's even more ridiculous is that the Magic since the allstar break have one of the best records in the NBA with what they've done.

Black has started 33 games including a 9 game win streak.
Fultz has started 13 games and hasn’t since early February

So to pretend this is about serious continuity is kind of ridiculous.

Your metric of “since the allstar break” doesn’t even really work here considering Fultz still didn’t start in place of Suggs/Harris in that timeframe.

Your initial claim was that Black wasn’t contributing to offense but he outplayed Fultz even in this game lol… Yeah, Fultz is so good at getting guys open for shots he finished with 0 total assists. Amazing.

[Bensational]

Again, what you're saying would make sense if this team wasn't 42-30 right now and 5th place in the East. WAYYYY above expectations nonetheless...

Your assertion of having to put key bench role players in the starting lineup is negated since they've been doing this THE WHOLE SEASON. The bench was doing this since the 9 game winning streak where they were huge and are doing it now.

And what's even more ridiculous is that the Magic since the allstar break have one of the best records in the NBA with what they've done.

What are you talking about? The Magic have had a bunch of different lineups throughout the course of the season with both the starters and bench. When Harris went down our first call up to replace him was Houstan, not Fultz.

Pre-Allstar break the Magic also had a stretch where they were one of the best teams in the league, and Black and Goga were starting. I’m pretty sure you were insisting back then that Fultz should start when he’s healthy because he’d be better for the team’s performance, but when he did the team tanked and now he’s been relegated to a bench player.

This team is capable of finding success in multiple ways with multiple players. It would be foolish to assume there’s only way way to win with our guys when the season has clearly shown otherwise.

[KillMonger]

This is probably the closest I am to being completely out on Wendell..... You getting out worked and punked by a rookie? Trace-davis? He's smaller than you.... Less experienced.... You know it's real when even coach can't finish the game with you....Yo.....lets go after hartenstein, he's a free agent

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[thelead]

This is probably the closest I am to being completely out on Wendell..... You getting out worked and punked by a rookie? Trace-davis? He's smaller than you.... Less experienced.... You know it's real when even coach can't finish the game with you

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The writing is on the walls. There were rumors of him being made available at the deadline and JI is increasingly playing over him in tight games.

[JF5]

Against the Warriors daring Orlando to shoot its probably smarter to not get into a shooting contest with Fultz in your starting lineup against two hall of fame shooters. It's a wash with AB defensively, but not with Cole.

I'm just using your own logic. "You cannot start AB because teams are just allowing role players to shoot"... yeah so why start Fultz? Your argument is that AB doesn't create opportunities and Fultz gets 0 assists. Ok cool.

Mosely closed a close game out with Cole and JI in over Fultz and Carter, so theres your answer as to who needed to start and who didn't need to. I don't even really need to make an argument for a rookie to get minutes over Fultz. There isn't an argument to be made.

They're not starting Cole due to his bench impact. That would absolutely screw the advantage the team has with that. That's just common sense.

Same with Issac who is still on a minutes restriction and is working his way back into playing more minutes.

I feel like I'm banging my head on the wall. Fultz adds another dimension of playmaking, passing, and shot creation that Black doesn't have. If you put Black in, instead what is he most likely to do?

He'll just stand there and make the occasional cut compared to Markelle Fultz who can make the offense more versatile and adds another r with his skillset. If Black was shooting the 3 like Suggs or Harris he'd easily get more run than Fultz. But he's a low volume 3 point shooter with little to no offensive skillset which teams are very happy to let beat them. This is not rocket science.

A very good example of what I'm talking about I'd Fultz playing in the post and creating his own shot there or passing it to a cutter or open man. Or if he has the ball at FT line he can shoot it/drive to the rim or pass it to cutters or 3 point shooter.

In the game in Minnesota we saw how this worked to a T where Fultz/Paolo/Wagner/Carter were just running a clinic of interior passing within 20 feet in to generate points against the wolves in the 3rd quarter.

Can Black do any of what I've described of Fultz? He'll no. He can't even drive on his defender and finish at point blank range that well. Maybe he gets better at these things but good God he is such a blank page offensively.

Does Gary Harris do the same things that Fultz does? We're talking about filling in for Harris at SG. I'm not sure what Markelle's driving ability has to do with that.

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I'm going to reiterate this again. Caleb and Harris who are shooters and are able to put points on the board are better options than Fultz. CLEARLY a better option than Fultz.

I'm making a distinction with Black and Fultz and what they provide offensively. I've said this numerous times. If Black cannot shoot the 3 he's essentially useless on the court. He doesn't create offense at all for himself, he can't create for others, and he is not much and he cannot coordinate an offense/penetrate the offense like Fultz can at this stage of his career.

The issues this team has been having in the starting line-up have to deal with a secondary playmaker and a guy who can create for himself or for other. This is why the part of the fanbase have been screaming for a Dejounte Murray or Tyus Jones for months for a guy who can actually help set up the offense and bring stability. Fultz even though is not the best at it is the best option that they have right now and it makes sense why Mosley would put him given that he can still do that though he's regressed tremendously.

What I'm saying is if you want want to put a role on a guy to do that for you. Fultz is the clear answer at this stage since you're back into a corner with not having any shorters. Mosley didn't want to throw an offense out there where its essentially where they had to trust Black to score and create with the basketball, and seeing him play I completely understand why he didn't play him with the starting line-up.

[JF5]

Again, what you're saying would make sense if this team wasn't 42-30 right now and 5th place in the East. WAYYYY above expectations nonetheless...

Your assertion of having to put key bench role players in the starting lineup is negated since they've been doing this THE WHOLE SEASON. The bench was doing this since the 9 game winning streak where they were huge and are doing it now.

And what's even more ridiculous is that the Magic since the allstar break have one of the best records in the NBA with what they've done.

What are you talking about? The Magic have had a bunch of different lineups throughout the course of the season with both the starters and bench. When Harris went down our first call up to replace him was Houstan, not Fultz.

Pre-Allstar break the Magic also had a stretch where they were one of the best teams in the league, and Black and Goga were starting. I’m pretty sure you were insisting back then that Fultz should start when he’s healthy because he’d be better for the team’s performance, but when he did the team tanked and now he’s been relegated to a bench player.

This team is capable of finding success in multiple ways with multiple players. It would be foolish to assume there’s only way way to win with our guys when the season has clearly shown otherwise.

You jumped the gun and didn't read what I was replying to MagicMatic about.

Here is what he said

Mosely closed a close game out with Cole and JI in over Fultz and Carter, so theres your answer as to who needed to start and who didn't need to. I don't even really need to make an argument for a rookie to get minutes over Fultz. There isn't an argument to be made.

He was essentially alluding to Issac and Cole starting which I said would absolutely cripple the STRENGTH OF THE BENCH, as that is the major reason why the Magic are 42-30. If your bench is destroying the other bench and you're consistently winning with that formula don't change it. That's common sense.

[KillMonger]

Something went wrong with Fultz man, the tos came back and other knee stuff has made him a shell of what we saw last season.... He's been back for a while now and it's not really getting better.... This version of kelle has me seriously wondering if Mac Mcclung is better.... This version of kelle has me wondering if he'll get another contract in the league...he doesn't need a sympathy contract from us, no more giving roster spots to reclamation projects respectfully.... He's made close to 100 million in his career

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[Bensational]

I'm making a distinction with Black and Fultz and what they provide offensively. I've said this numerous times. If Black cannot shoot the 3 he's essentially useless on the court. He doesn't create offense at all for himself, he can't create for others, and he is not much and he cannot coordinate an offense/penetrate the offense like Fultz can at this stage of his career.

But… Black does shoot 3’s? Post ASB he’s shooting 44% on 2 attempts a game in 15mpg. Harris is shooting 49% on 4 attempts a game in 25mpg.

Does Fultz shoot 3’s? No.

The issues this team has been having in the starting line-up have to deal with a secondary playmaker and a guy who can create for himself or for other.

You’re arguing at cross points here. If the post asb success is the standard you want to maintain, that was driven by Suggs and Harris shooting exceptionally well - not because we found a temporary secondary playmaker. So when Harris goes down why does he need to be replaced by a ball-handling interior scoring guard and not our next best shooting guard?

Fultz’s best lineups post ASB have been with the bench. You were arguing before that maintaining that bench unit strength was critical, so why are you at the same time making a case Fultz should start in a lineup he’s much less effective with?

Of course you’ll get more mistakes from AB, but he’s a rookie and it’s to be expected.

[JF5]

Thing change when you lose 1 starter + 1 role player that filled in for stretching the floor. Therefore this idea that you are OK with letting the SL go to **** over the bench success is kinda nonsensical. Guys have to step up and every game is different based on matchups. You don't sacrifice the effectiveness of the SL because your bench helped you a lot against sub .500 teams.

Again, what you're saying would make sense if this team wasn't 42-30 right now and 5th place in the East. WAYYYY above expectations nonetheless...

Your assertion of having to put key bench role players in the starting lineup is negated since they've been doing this THE WHOLE SEASON. The bench was doing this since the 9 game winning streak where they were huge and are doing it now.

And what's even more ridiculous is that the Magic since the allstar break have one of the best records in the NBA with what they've done.

Black has started 33 games including a 9 game win streak.
Fultz has started 13 games and hasn’t since early February

So to pretend this is about serious continuity is kind of ridiculous.

Your metric of “since the allstar break” doesn’t even really work here considering Fultz still didn’t start in place of Suggs/Harris in that timeframe.

Your initial claim was that Black wasn’t contributing to offense but he outplayed Fultz even in this game lol… Yeah, Fultz is so good at getting guys open for shots he finished with 0 total assists. Amazing.

You're absolutely shifting the conversation from what we are talking about. You were just alluding to starting Issac and Cole in your post, which is why I'm saying don't start your elite bench players as it would cripple the strength of your team.

Now all of a sudden its about Fultz again?

The team is 17-14 with Black starting (I don't count the Nuggets/Celtics games as he only played around 5 minutes in both starts where he got hurt/pulled early). Outside of that 9 game winning streak the team is 8-14 with him starting and playing more than 10+ minutes. So I don't know if that's really a good barometer To be honest.

Also, as well with Goga Starting the Magic are 17-16, whilst with Wendell Starting the Magic are 24-15.

[JF5]

But… Black does shoot 3’s? Post ASB he’s shooting 44% on 2 attempts a game in 15mpg. Harris is shooting 49% on 4 attempts a game in 25mpg.

Does Fultz shoot 3’s? No.

Do team's usually bother to guard/contest Black's 3 Ball? No
Do they run at Gary Harris whenever he launches a 3? Yes

You’re arguing at cross points here. If the post asb success is the standard you want to maintain, that was driven by Suggs and Harris shooting exceptionally well - not because we found a temporary secondary playmaker. So when Harris goes down why does he need to be replaced by a ball-handling interior scoring guard and not our next best shooting guard?

Fultz’s best lineups post ASB have been with the bench. You were arguing before that maintaining that bench unit strength was critical, so why are you at the same time making a case Fultz should start in a lineup he’s much less effective with?

Of course you’ll get more mistakes from AB, but he’s a rookie and it’s to be expected.

That's not necessarily what I was referencing in that capacity. I'm stating in THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION where they have to choose between Black and Fultz they're likely to choose Fultz to be the starter since their shooters are out. And clearly they're choosing him as a rotation player too as Black hasn't logged many minutes since he's been back in the rotation.

We're essentially arguing if a 2 borderline rotation players who typically wouldn't get to start, should get the start once their shooters go down. I mentioned in prior post that Houstan/Harris would be starting easily but they're not. This isn't some sort of decree Fultz should be starting over Harris or Houstan. Once those guys are able to come back you park Fultz's ass back onto the bench lmao.

But as of now it just makes sense that he's starting. AB is safer being around a stronger Second Unit where he isn't asked to be doing much. Fultz is a vet and knows the team and isn't a player who typically won't lose confidence if things aren't going his way.

[Bensational]

But… Black does shoot 3’s? Post ASB he’s shooting 44% on 2 attempts a game in 15mpg. Harris is shooting 49% on 4 attempts a game in 25mpg.

Does Fultz shoot 3’s? No.

Do team's usually bother to guard/contest Black's 3 Ball? No
Do they run at Gary Harris whenever he launches a 3? Yes

<snip>

I'm stating in THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION where they have to choose between Black and Fultz they're likely to choose Fultz to be the starter since their shooters are out. And clearly they're choosing him as a rotation player too as Black hasn't logged many minutes since he's been back in the rotation.

We're essentially arguing if a 2 borderline rotation players who typically wouldn't get to start, should get the start once their shooters go down. I mentioned in prior post that Houstan/Harris would be starting easily but they're not. This isn't some sort of decree Fultz should be starting over Harris or Houstan. Once those guys are able to come back you park Fultz's ass back onto the bench lmao.

But as of now it just makes sense that he's starting.

That’s what confuses me though, if the goal is to preserve what we’ve been having success with (Harris/Houstan) and both are unavailable, then bringing in the guy with the next closest profile is surely the easiest way to maintain that style and rhythm. AB has the next closest profile. Does AB get left open? Yeah, but when he’s a 40% shooter then you let the opposition take that gamble. They close out on every shot he takes, too.

I think the team has room this season to excuse some losses at the expense of Black getting some more exposure, if that is the result. But if we keep giving Fultx minutes and get the same results then it’s just a waste long term at this point. I just don’t think Fultz is capable of offering enough of a positive impact to outweigh Black’s development.

But yeah - the moment Harris is back he starts.

[SOUL]

In retrospect the morning after it's funny seeing these debates, it's the equivalent of Clippers fans debating like Amir Coffey vs Bones Hylands 15 minutes and effectiveness while Kawhi, Harden and George just pooped on the court for most of the game.

[basketballRob]

They're not starting Cole due to his bench impact. That would absolutely screw the advantage the team has with that. That's just common sense.

Same with Issac who is still on a minutes restriction and is working his way back into playing more minutes.

I feel like I'm banging my head on the wall. Fultz adds another dimension of playmaking, passing, and shot creation that Black doesn't have. If you put Black in, instead what is he most likely to do?

He'll just stand there and make the occasional cut compared to Markelle Fultz who can make the offense more versatile and adds another r with his skillset. If Black was shooting the 3 like Suggs or Harris he'd easily get more run than Fultz. But he's a low volume 3 point shooter with little to no offensive skillset which teams are very happy to let beat them. This is not rocket science.

A very good example of what I'm talking about I'd Fultz playing in the post and creating his own shot there or passing it to a cutter or open man. Or if he has the ball at FT line he can shoot it/drive to the rim or pass it to cutters or 3 point shooter.

In the game in Minnesota we saw how this worked to a T where Fultz/Paolo/Wagner/Carter were just running a clinic of interior passing within 20 feet in to generate points against the wolves in the 3rd quarter.

Can Black do any of what I've described of Fultz? He'll no. He can't even drive on his defender and finish at point blank range that well. Maybe he gets better at these things but good God he is such a blank page offensively.

Does Gary Harris do the same things that Fultz does? We're talking about filling in for Harris at SG. I'm not sure what Markelle's driving ability has to do with that.

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I'm going to reiterate this again. Caleb and Harris who are shooters and are able to put points on the board are better options than Fultz. CLEARLY a better option than Fultz.

I'm making a distinction with Black and Fultz and what they provide offensively. I've said this numerous times. If Black cannot shoot the 3 he's essentially useless on the court. He doesn't create offense at all for himself, he can't create for others, and he is not much and he cannot coordinate an offense/penetrate the offense like Fultz can at this stage of his career.

The issues this team has been having in the starting line-up have to deal with a secondary playmaker and a guy who can create for himself or for other. This is why the part of the fanbase have been screaming for a Dejounte Murray or Tyus Jones for months for a guy who can actually help set up the offense and bring stability. Fultz even though is not the best at it is the best option that they have right now and it makes sense why Mosley would put him given that he can still do that though he's regressed tremendously.

What I'm saying is if you want want to put a role on a guy to do that for you. Fultz is the clear answer at this stage since you're back into a corner with not having any shorters. Mosley didn't want to throw an offense out there where its essentially where they had to trust Black to score and create with the basketball, and seeing him play I completely understand why he didn't play him with the starting line-up.

I disagree and feel Black was a better choice for the starting lineup while Harris was out. Black spreads the floor more than Fultz. Black averages 13.4 ppg per 100 and Harris 15.3 per 100. There's not much difference.

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[MagicMatic]

Again, what you're saying would make sense if this team wasn't 42-30 right now and 5th place in the East. WAYYYY above expectations nonetheless...

Your assertion of having to put key bench role players in the starting lineup is negated since they've been doing this THE WHOLE SEASON. The bench was doing this since the 9 game winning streak where they were huge and are doing it now.

And what's even more ridiculous is that the Magic since the allstar break have one of the best records in the NBA with what they've done.

Black has started 33 games including a 9 game win streak.
Fultz has started 13 games and hasn’t since early February

So to pretend this is about serious continuity is kind of ridiculous.

Your metric of “since the allstar break” doesn’t even really work here considering Fultz still didn’t start in place of Suggs/Harris in that timeframe.

Your initial claim was that Black wasn’t contributing to offense but he outplayed Fultz even in this game lol… Yeah, Fultz is so good at getting guys open for shots he finished with 0 total assists. Amazing.

You're absolutely shifting the conversation from what we are talking about. You were just alluding to starting Issac and Cole in your post, which is why I'm saying don't start your elite bench players as it would cripple the strength of your team.

Now all of a sudden its about Fultz again?

The team is 17-14 with Black starting (I don't count the Nuggets/Celtics games as he only played around 5 minutes in both starts where he got hurt/pulled early). Outside of that 9 game winning streak the team is 8-14 with him starting and playing more than 10+ minutes. So I don't know if that's really a good barometer To be honest.

Also, as well with Goga Starting the Magic are 17-16, whilst with Wendell Starting the Magic are 24-15.

The main point was "why start Fultz at all?" . Hell, why even play him at this point other than exceedingly sparingly? You can fill in the blank for any of the other available options.

Your justifications are merely twisting and turning the narrative as to why they weren't considered without any legitimate argument as to why. I'm pushing back on the idea that Cole and AB weren't viable alternatives despite what you want to believe.

I'm not even necessarily saying Fultz was the reason for this loss. ALL of the starters played poorly. It just doesn't help when you are playing 4 on 5 and going into a shooting contest against the best shooting back court in the last decade. Why Mosely thought that was a great idea is why this game thread is this long.

[Knightro]

In retrospect the morning after it's funny seeing these debates, it's the equivalent of Clippers fans debating like Amir Coffey vs Bones Hylands 15 minutes and effectiveness while Kawhi, Harden and George just pooped on the court for most of the game.

Right like...

For all the pissing and moaning about Fultz and Carter and Mosley and whatever else people want to be outraged about...

Paolo, Franz and Suggs combined to shoot 12/38 from the floor (.315) and 2/14 from 3PT (.143)

The Magic aren't going to win many games when that happens.

[pepe1991]

Fultz sucks. After somewhat okey last year, this year he unlocked Payton in him. Pretty much unplayable, gives you nothing without ball, and hardly does anything with ball.
That said, if main goal is to win, than Black, today, isn't answer either.


Several days ago i proposed rotation of : Harris, Suggs, Franz, Paolo, Wendell, off bench Cole, Isaac, Mortiz and Ingles.
That's 9 men. There is no reason to play anybody else.


Tonight:
Hawks- 9 men
Celtics - 9 men
Pelicans -8 men ( in theory 10, but one played seven, other two min )
Bucks - 8 men


There simply isn't any reason why we are still playing 10 or more people this late in a season with pending playoffs and still being in danger of slipping down the standings.
We only have 10 games to play, 6 of them are very hard games (and Bulls can be dangerous if they can make shots ). So let's not BS this and due crappy rotations find ourselfs in playin, fighting for our lives vs teams like Atlanta.


Black will have his time to shine, develop, prove something. Now it's not a time.

[eyriq]

Fultz sucks. After somewhat okey last year, this year he unlocked Payton in him. Pretty much unplayable, gives you nothing without ball, and hardly does anything with ball.
That said, if main goal is to win, than Black, today, isn't answer either.


Several days ago i proposed rotation of : Harris, Suggs, Franz, Paolo, Wendell, off bench Cole, Isaac, Mortiz and Ingles.
That's 9 men. There is no reason to play anybody else.


Tonight:
Hawks- 9 men
Celtics - 9 men
Pelicans -8 men ( in theory 10, but one played seven, other two min )
Bucks - 8 men


There simply isn't any reason why we are still playing 10 or more people this late in a season with pending playoffs and still being in danger of slipping down the standings.
We only have 10 games to play, 6 of them are very hard games (and Bulls can be dangerous if they can make shots ). So let's not BS this and due crappy rotations find ourselfs in playin, fighting for our lives vs teams like Atlanta.


Black will have his time to shine, develop, prove something. Now it's not a time.

This is probably what needs to happen. AB can suck it up and Harris can help us win.

[SOUL]

.

I agree in theory, but a lot of teams have more top heavy depth... we have depth but after 5-6 players it's kinda like whoever has good day should play more, if not they suck. Teams with a very defined 5 good starters + 3 dependable bench guys can do that.. we have to deal with random off Ingles games, Moe not being effective, Cole chucking, Fultz being Fultz,. AB being a rook.. Houstan not hitting shots.. etc.