2023-2024 Regular Season Game 72: Golden State Warriors (37-34) at Orlando Magic (42-29) - 7pm

[basketballRob]

The starting lineup is way better with Harris.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[basketballRob]

The annoying thing about this loss is that the Warriors didn't even play that well, their offense was struggling during long periods of the game, they shot poorly from 3, Curry was subpar until the last minute or so, they had some idiotic turnovers, but we kept bailing them out with bad misses and poor rebounding. Paolo and Suggs had a nightmare and Franz wasn't much better. Fultz...I still have no idea why he is still playing, he tries hard, but he just doesn't have it now. Coel And Isaac kept in the game with help from Ingles and Moe (in the second half, he was quite bad in the first half though he also on the end of some terrible calls by the refs).

Harris' impact has always been underrated on this board, his boxscore is nothing special, but since he's been here we've usually played quite a bit better with him on the court, especially when he is a starter. We are 31-15 in the games he's played this year and 15-4 in the games he started. This is somewhat skewed by the easy schedule of the largest stretch he played as a starter, but it's still indicative of his impact. The starting lineup was crushing it after ASB when he played and we rarely got into a hole in the first 7-8 minuites of the games unlike most of the season. The Harris-Suggs-Wendell-Paolo-Franz starting lineup has +7.9 net rating in the first quarter while the other two most used starting lineups this season are -6.6 and -10.3 respectively, not having to dig ourselves out of holes early on was very important for the good streak.

But mostly our stars need to be better.

That Harris impact analysis is based on all noise, no signal. Last year it was Fultz getting carried by this type of thinking, now it's Harris? Franz and Paolo are the common denominators. Suggs has replaced Fultz and WCJ as the clear #3. Harris is irrelevant.

Harris looks great...relative to all of our guards but Suggs That's not Harris' fault-it's Weltman's

Harris spreads the floor and that helps the rest of the team. I remember Evan always shooting way better when TRoss was in the lineup. The offense looks more functional.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[zaymon]

Harris spreads the floor and is also smart on both ends, he doesnt dominate possessions helps moving the ball sacrificing his own numbers.
There are some people here that write negative things about him in every other post but the things he brings cant be seen only at the boxscore. Yes he is far from perfect but what he brings is valueable even tough he is not a point guard.

[Skybox]

That Harris impact analysis is based on all noise, no signal. Last year it was Fultz getting carried by this type of thinking, now it's Harris? Franz and Paolo are the common denominators. Suggs has replaced Fultz and WCJ as the clear #3. Harris is irrelevant.

Harris looks great...relative to all of our guards but Suggs That's not Harris' fault-it's Weltman's

Harris spreads the floor and that helps the rest of the team. I remember Evan always shooting way better when TRoss was in the lineup. The offense looks more functional.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

I like Harris, but only as 4th or 5th guard on a good team and on a vet minimum - which someone else would likely top. We're still missing two of the three guys that should be ahead of him in the backcourt rotation. Bringing him back wouldn't be the worst thing - as long as it's done AFTER making a significant upgrade or two ahead of him on the priority list.

For me:
1. Scoring guard, preferably creator and defender as well as floor-spreading threat on high volume
2. Starting Center with legit rim-protection, physical presence, rebounding, lob catcher
3. Quality vet depth on favorable deals at nearly any spot, BBIQ > upside at this point of roster

[JoshuaPotter]

Man that I-4 was having quite the hangover this morning. Several wrecks.

Oh hi guys! Tough loss. Was filing my taxes yesterday so I couldn't listen in. I am liking the criticism Mosely is getting. I feel reupping his contract for the next 4 years means that both he and the org think that the core is in place and like what he is doing.

I'm all for the Fire Mose for starting Fultz. I feel bad for that Fultz guy. Good to see AB get some burn and Cole Anthony starting to get out of his slump even if it is in a losing effort.

50 wins is still possible, but alas, I am starting to not believe.

[JoshuaPotter]

52% from the FT LINE! That's literally the entire game! Wow!

Forget defenses teams will play against us. They'll just institute "hack a Magic player".

[JF5]

The starting lineup is way better with Harris.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

The Starter's offense has hit a dead end against superior/veteran teams.

It makes sense because a young team offensively doesn't have much when it comes to am extensive playbook/packaging/experience and not enough counters when their bread and butter does not work.

People are going to blame Mose but there is only so much he can do with your best players not having counters to specific defenses yet. If they were 5-6 year vets it would be more concerning. But games like this against a team that has much of a championship pedigree and experience like the Warriors who are fighting for their playoff lives too makes it tougher.

The trends we've been seeing over the last few weeks actually are teams are just packing the paint and immediate doubling/pressuring not just Paolo... But also Franz around 10 feet and below. Yesterday, the Warriors played a boxed 3/2 and 2/3 zone defenses just daring the other starters to shoot.

This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.

The defense in none of these games theyve lost have been the culprit. It's really been the offense struggling to generate points.

[MagicMatic]

This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.

This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.

[eyriq]

This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.

This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.

Fultz is the curse that keeps on cursing

[Knightro]

That Harris impact analysis is based on all noise, no signal. Last year it was Fultz getting carried by this type of thinking, now it's Harris?

Ehhhh.

Fultz last year had a **** net rating and **** on/off metrics. The team was quite literally succeeding in spite of him and people were blind to it because the turnaround last year from a record perspective happened to coincided with his return from injury (also Cole's return, and Moritz's return, and WCJ's return and Gary's return, but people generally were apt to ignore those parts).

Harris has played well, especially lately, and the team has been really good with him on the court. Something that was not really the case much at all with Fultz last year.

[Skybox]

The starting lineup is way better with Harris.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

The Starter's offense has hit a dead end against superior/veteran teams.

It makes sense because a young team offensively doesn't have much when it comes to am extensive playbook/packaging/experience and not enough counters when their bread and butter does not work.

People are going to blame Mose but there is only so much he can do with your best players not having counters to specific defenses yet. If they were 5-6 year vets it would be more concerning. But games like this against a team that has much of a championship pedigree and experience like the Warriors who are fighting for their playoff lives too makes it tougher.

The trends we've been seeing over the last few weeks actually are teams are just packing the paint and immediate doubling/pressuring not just Paolo... But also Franz around 10 feet and below. Yesterday, the Warriors played a boxed 3/2 and 2/3 zone defenses just daring the other starters to shoot.

This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.

The defense in none of these games theyve lost have been the culprit. It's really been the offense struggling to generate points.

good eye...just wait until a playoff series to really see how they try to bury Paolo & Franz...Maybe Suggs will have one of those 20+ games and carry us to a win.

[Audi]

I see Fultz got the chance to start and really made the most of it.

16 minutes, 4 points, 1 rebound, ZERO ASSISTS, ZERO FT ATTEMPTS, ZERO 3-PT ATTEMPTS

Sixth season on the roster, second-highest paid player on the team. No other team in the league would ever.

Buddy, why are you using caps on zero assists as if it was his problem? Opening minutes of the game we could've added +6 points in about 10 seconds on his defense alone. Fultz block on Wiggins leads to ...a wide open airballed corner 3 from Suggs. GSW rebounds and outlet pass is stolen by Fultz which then became...a bricked wide open 3 from Paolo.

I get the guy should've been DPE'd like two games into the season, but why's it his fault that we can't hit wide open 3s?

[jezzerinho]

The starting lineup is way better with Harris.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

The Starter's offense has hit a dead end against superior/veteran teams.

It makes sense because a young team offensively doesn't have much when it comes to am extensive playbook/packaging/experience and not enough counters when their bread and butter does not work.

People are going to blame Mose but there is only so much he can do with your best players not having counters to specific defenses yet. If they were 5-6 year vets it would be more concerning. But games like this against a team that has much of a championship pedigree and experience like the Warriors who are fighting for their playoff lives too makes it tougher.

The trends we've been seeing over the last few weeks actually are teams are just packing the paint and immediate doubling/pressuring not just Paolo... But also Franz around 10 feet and below. Yesterday, the Warriors played a boxed 3/2 and 2/3 zone defenses just daring the other starters to shoot.

This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.

The defense in none of these games theyve lost have been the culprit. It's really been the offense struggling to generate points.

My take on what's wrong is that in big games the Magic suddenly get stuck in offensive quicksand. There's much less off-ball movement, much less reading of where the space is, much less manipulation of defences. And so they get really static, really iso-heavy and really predictable.

A bit of that is facing savvy vets who are not giving them the easy stuff, but frankly I think them reverting to being static is psychological. I think they get overwound and maybe also intimidated in these big games and they just go right away from the gamestyle that got them all the wins. They just fold mentally.

[JF5]

This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.

This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.

AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.

You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.

Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to assuage this issue until the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.

I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.

And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.

[p0peye]

That Harris impact analysis is based on all noise, no signal. Last year it was Fultz getting carried by this type of thinking, now it's Harris?

Ehhhh.

Fultz last year had a **** net rating and **** on/off metrics. The team was quite literally succeeding in spite of him and people were blind to it because the turnaround last year from a record perspective happened to coincided with his return from injury (also Cole's return, and Moritz's return, and WCJ's return and Gary's return, but people generally were apt to ignore those parts).

Harris has played well, especially lately, and the team has been really good with him on the court. Something that was not really the case much at all with Fultz last year.

If memory serves me well, at that time I was pointing out that Cole's play correlates to our success unlike Fultz's.

[eyriq]

This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.

This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.

AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.

You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.

Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to he assuage during the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.

I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.

And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.

Black had an assist, got to the line 3 times, and took 2 threes. His ability to move off ball, catch and shoot, and draw contact while attacking the basket is already ahead of Fultz. He's also a willing connector piece and quickly swings the ball and keeps the offense moving.

[p0peye]

This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.

AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.

You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.

Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to he assuage during the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.

I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.

And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.

Black had an assist, got to the line 3 times, and took 2 threes. His ability to move off ball, catch and shoot, and draw contact while attacking the basket is already ahead of Fultz. He's also a willing connector piece and quickly swings the ball and keeps the offense moving.

Truth be told, he barely touches the ball once it is on opponent's half.

[MagicMatic]

This is why that it would be hard to start guys like Goga and Black right now. Because Good teams are just allowing the Magic role players to shoot/score whilst zeroing on Franz/Paolo in the paint. And if you have 2 guys who have barely any offensive inclination on the court (with one of your stars struggling to shoot the 3 ball well) it makes your offensive woes a lot tougher.

This makes perfect sense to start Fultz over Cole then. Much better having a shrunk floor and no spacing. Also, last time I checked, AB was also a better shooter than Fultz off catch and shoot 3’s.

AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.

You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.

Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to he assuage during the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.

I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.

And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.

Against the Warriors daring Orlando to shoot its probably smarter to not get into a shooting contest with Fultz in your starting lineup against two hall of fame shooters. It's a wash with AB defensively, but not with Cole.

I'm just using your own logic. "You cannot start AB because teams are just allowing role players to shoot"... yeah so why start Fultz? Your argument is that AB doesn't create opportunities and Fultz gets 0 assists. Ok cool.

Mosely closed a close game out with Cole and JI in over Fultz and Carter, so theres your answer as to who needed to start and who didn't need to. I don't even really need to make an argument for a rookie to get minutes over Fultz. There isn't an argument to be made.

[eyriq]

AB can't create his own offense, penetrate, and get others involved like Fultz can. The problem with Fultz is that he's just been godawful at doing those things since he's come back from injury. If he looked like any from last year the offense would look much better.

You argue to put Black in. But Black cannot create his own offense whatsoever. On top of that he is shooting better, you're correct about that but he is similar to an Aaron Gordon in the sense he'll take the occasional 3 rather than being a high volume floor spacer like a Klay Thompson, Gary Trent Jr., or even Jalen Suggs. Youll see teams just consistently leave him wide open because hes still a very unreliable shooter. and if Black is not making any 3s he's essentially useless on the offensive end. There's nothing on the offensive end outside of shooting that he does better than Fultz, and even that's not reliable at this point of his career.

Defensively it's essentially a wash because all the guards are really good defenders, and that end the team is fine. Once again, they need to find a way to generate more offense. And to be honest that's likely not going to he assuage during the offseason through internal development, Shooters/Scorers/Playmakers via free agent additions, and chemistry.

I like Black to as a Role Player in the future. But I think they might need to move on from him if guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Bojan Bogdonovic, and Bruce Brown are made available for that play-making role off the bench.

And I like to emphasize with you in particular that I want Fultz off the team or playing deep bench minutes if they decide to bring him back. He should not be a rotation guy.

Black had an assist, got to the line 3 times, and took 2 threes. His ability to move off ball, catch and shoot, and draw contact while attacking the basket is already ahead of Fultz. He's also a willing connector piece and quickly swings the ball and keeps the offense moving.

Truth be told, he barely touches the ball once it is on opponent's half.

He's the 5th option. Another area that he clears Fultz, he's not taking dribbles out of our best players hands. Time on the ball should be dominated by Paolo, Franz, and Suggs.

[Knightro]

If memory serves me well, at that time I was pointing out that Cole's play correlates to our success unlike Fultz's.

Cole and Markelle returned on the same day last year.

The bench improved significantly. The starters... well...