Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread

[OrlChamps2030]

Oy....

You guys gotta change the rules on the drinking game. My liver cannot take anymore.

For the newbs, take a shot anytime
Knightro mentions Trae Young
"Sunk cost" gets posted
eyriq mentions AB projections
Anytime I have a post less then 5 words

Good luck and whatever God you believe in be with you.

My more overarching point is that I don't think replacing Gary Harris with a better or more willing shooter is going to positively impact things offensively nearly as much as actually having a real point guard on the roster capable of creating offense for himself and others while also being a calming influence that controls the pace and tempo of the game.

Moreover, finding 1 PG is just a start. We would be smart to find, not only our starting PG, but also a good backup PG. Imagine how much better this team would look with someone like Murray starting and TJ McConnell or Tyus backing him up.

Likely not gonna happen in one summer but that needs to be the goal over the next year or so.

AB can’t be our backup PG?

[MagicMatic]

this forum/magic twitter be like:

I know this is in jest.

This is just an extreme representation of what people as talking about. People do this in politics all the time when it’s just a gross misrepresentation to make a point.

Fultz/Cole have looked abysmal not only in this series but in the last month of the regular season. There is no actual downside to playing AB if he’s actually going to be on the roster longer than a season.

The same goes with Goga and Carter. He has looked like ass on both sides of the court. The gimmick of hitting the occasional 3 because Gary and Suggs haven’t been wears off real fast when you’d rather Paolo have an easier time at the basket as well as provide better rebounding/defense.

I know we won’t actually see this change happen for reasons… but let’s not act like it doesn’t make logical sense at some level.

[thelead]

My more overarching point is that I don't think replacing Gary Harris with a better or more willing shooter is going to positively impact things offensively nearly as much as actually having a real point guard on the roster capable of creating offense for himself and others while also being a calming influence that controls the pace and tempo of the game.

Moreover, finding 1 PG is just a start. We would be smart to find, not only our starting PG, but also a good backup PG. Imagine how much better this team would look with someone like Murray starting and TJ McConnell or Tyus backing him up.

Likely not gonna happen in one summer but that needs to be the goal over the next year or so.

AB can’t be our backup PG?

Not under Mosley it appears. AB can handle the rock but there is very little playmaking happening when he’s the point on the court.

I just get the feeling that Mosley is not a fan.

[OrlChamps2030]

Moreover, finding 1 PG is just a start. We would be smart to find, not only our starting PG, but also a good backup PG. Imagine how much better this team would look with someone like Murray starting and TJ McConnell or Tyus backing him up.

Likely not gonna happen in one summer but that needs to be the goal over the next year or so.

AB can’t be our backup PG?

Not under Mosley it appears. AB can handle the rock but there is very little playmaking happening when he’s the point on the court.

I just get the feeling that Mosley is not a fan.

If we are actively looking for a backup PG going forward when AB is on the roster, that’s not good

[Skybox]

My more overarching point is that I don't think replacing Gary Harris with a better or more willing shooter is going to positively impact things offensively nearly as much as actually having a real point guard on the roster capable of creating offense for himself and others while also being a calming influence that controls the pace and tempo of the game.

Moreover, finding 1 PG is just a start. We would be smart to find, not only our starting PG, but also a good backup PG. Imagine how much better this team would look with someone like Murray starting and TJ McConnell or Tyus backing him up.

Likely not gonna happen in one summer but that needs to be the goal over the next year or so.

AB can’t be our backup PG?

I think he could be our backup PG next year. I just understand that on a competitive team, that might not be a large role...it's basically holding down the fort while the starters get a rest...he also, for now, pairs well with Cole's guilt-free approach to offense.

I hope my posts don't seem terribly negative about AB. I really like him and see good reason to be patient with him...but he's not ready to do much other than defend (which is something) yet and he hasn't shown many indicators of developing offense yet. Hitting wide open 3's (like an empty gym set shot) doesn't make him a sniper, but it's promising. I've only seen him dribble up to the 3pt line and confidently pull up for a 3 once (he made it). He could be a tremendously versatile "swiss army knife" type of player like Andre Igoudala-for example. I just don't see the high-end starting PG vision in his future...especially if we are committed to Suggs, who also looks to me as a limited offensive threat and NOT a PG...being able to deploy both for specific defensive assignments and stretches of time does allow us to maintain that defensive intensity and sounds like a Mosley vision for the future...but we need a backcourt ace in the meantime.

[doct3r dr3]

Some fun with numbers from Stats.NBA.com

It may come as no surprise that the Magic's 23.6% 3P% is good for worst among all playoff teams through the first 2 games. But how well-contested are these threes the Magic are missing?

Through the first 2 games of the playoffs, the Magic have attempted:

• 0 "Very tight" (0-2 ft) contested threes
• 1.5 "Tight" (2-4 ft) contested threes per game (3rd fewest)
• 12.5 "Open" (4-6 ft) threes per game (9th most)
• 22.0 "Wide open" (6+ ft) threes per game (4th most)

... put into context, that means that 61.1% of the Magic's 3PA were wide open, good for 3rd most in the playoffs, and 95.8% were either open or wide open, also good for 3rd most in the playoffs.


and the Magic have converted:

• 0% of "Very tight" (0-2 ft) threes
• 0% of "Tight" (2-4 ft) threes
• 24.0% of "Open" (4-6 ft) threes (3rd worst)
• 25.0% of "Wide open" (6+ ft) threes (worst)

As a result, the Magic have missed 16.5 wide open 3PA per game, good for 3rd most in the playoffs, behind New Orleans (17.0) and Indiana (20.0).


TL;DR: The Cavaliers are leaving the Magic wide open for three, and the Magic are shooting them, but missing them at an alarming rate.

[SHAQ32]

Looks like we need to adjust our expectations going forward with Paolo

[Kent]

The front office is getting what they wanted and that's a definitive look at what the team needs going forward. Surprise: it's better shooting. But at least they can't pretend it'll get better on its own.

That being said, this series is far from over. Win at home, build some momentum, feel good about yourself and get one in Cleveland.

[thelead]

Looks like we need to adjust our expectations going forward with Paolo

Meh. It’s possible that will need to adjust but it really comes down to his shooting/jumper and decision making. He had a few months this season where he looked to be going in the right direction as far as efficiency is concerned. He just needs to improve and sustain it.

The core is the core. It’s now the FO’s job to find their White/Holiday/Porzingis pieces… which, mind you, are high-level starters in their own rights.

[UCFJayBird]

Magic were the 6th best home team in the league this year. Cavs were I think middle of the pack in terms of Away team. Need to start Game 3 with a splash and a good offensive 1st Quarter to build some momentum and shake the offensive woes from Cleveland. If they can do that, they can certainly win both home games and even things back up and maybe shake the bad juju from the first two games (concern will be players mentally being able to keep that mentality heading back on the road and not letting the doubts creep back in and throw them off again).

Winning the series at this point is obviously a long shot, but I hope we can make it challenging.

[MagicMatic]

The entire backcourt is not good enough for the roles they are playing. The results in the first two games make that clear. Weaknesses are exposed in the playoffs, and our guard rotation is so bad we've become a national joke.

These three moves fell short of expectations and aren't working to date:

1) Bringing back Fultz. He was projected to be the starting PG despite being completely unreliable health-wise and a poor shooter. He allegedly had a great summer and everyone thought he would improve this year. Instead he took 1,000 steps back. The front office never should have re-signed him to begin with, and he certainly shouldn't have been here this year when his expiring contract could have been used in a deal with draft picks.

2) Drafting AB at #6. If your best option at #6 doesn't address any of the team's needs or weaknesses, then you should trade the pick. They drafted Black as a PG but he's barely played the position this year and inexplicably can't beat out Fultz for rotation minutes. If your #6 pick can't crack the rotation of the league's worst backcourt, then you made a mistake. Can Black improve and eventually contribute to this team? Of course, but anyone who says they're happy with Black being an "eventual contributor" is lying. More importantly, if he can't run the offense and is more of a 3-and-D guy, then why make him your pick?

3) (To a lesser extent) drafting Suggs at #5. Yes, Suggs's FG% and 3-ball improved dramatically this year, but again, he was drafted as a PG. It's revisionist history to suggest he was slotted as a 3-and-D SG coming out of the draft. It's also very possible that this year's shooting percentages were an aberration after a god-awful first 2 years in the league. In Games 1 and 2 he looked like rookie year Suggs, and he may already be regressing toward the mean. (I like Suggs a lot, but his shortcomings are part of the reason we are where we are with the guard situation).

So in summary:

1) Fultz (our second-highest paid player) shouldn't even be in the league.
2) AB can't even crack the rotation.
3) Suggs is a great role player, but we were hoping for much more than that when we drafted him #5.

Sometimes it's ok to go after guys who are pure scorers and nothing else. Donovan Mitchell gets a lot of criticism but look what he's doing to our defense-first backcourt.

Here were the main issues.

The Front Office : Retaining Fultz and not moving him 1.5-2 seasons ago. Hes now expiring for nothing if they arent dumb enough to resign him.. Second problem was never acquiring a proven vet point guard to run an offense.

Coach Mosely : Playing Fultz halfway through the season and changing the lineup 3-4x with young guys in the back court. Switching everything between Cole, Fultz, AB, Suggs, Gary, and even Houstan started 7 games this season. Ideally he should have just started Cole to start the season with AB coming off the bench and let the chips fall where they may.

I don't get the post draft talk with AB. We don't know who was on the table with the picks (never will) and point guard was obviously a need. Yeah, I wanted them to draft Cason Wallace instead, but the other picks in that range weren't ideal. The bigger injustice is drafting Jett Howard and never playing him a single minute as a lotto pick.

Jalen Suggs has been listed as a G or combo guard since highschool/college. People wanted him to come in and solve Orlando's point guard issue. Not sure thats on him as much as it is people's expectations. Are you taking Josh Primo, Davion Mitchell, or Tre Mann over Suggs? Those were your next guard options in the 2021 draft. Didnt think so...

[SHAQ32]

Looks like we need to adjust our expectations going forward with Paolo

Meh. It’s possible that will need to adjust but it really comes down to his shooting/jumper and decision making. He had a few months this season where he looked to be going in the right direction as far as efficiency is concerned. He just needs to improve and sustain it.

The core is the core. It’s now the FO’s job to find their White/Holiday/Porzingis pieces… which, mind you, are high-level starters in their own rights.

Now it's time for our #1 and #2 to play like a #1 and #2

[Knightro]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall to determine who ultimately made the decision to play Fultz.

I can't possibly imagine Mosley could watch this guy every day in practices and games truly believe he was the best option to fill those minutes.

I can't help but wonder if the front office are the ones who truly can't quit Markelle since they acquired him well before Mosley ever even got here.

[tooler]

TL;DR: The Cavaliers are leaving the Magic wide open for three, and the Magic are shooting them, but missing them at an alarming rate.

Someone posted on the GB that the Cavs have also had a little bit of bad shooting luck, so overall luck has benefited the Cavs to the tune of about 5 points per game on average. I think that's a little simplistic, because it's allowed the Cavs to stay home on Paolo and Franz and make them look even worse than they are. But there it is.

Two home games of great shooting could really help...

[Knightro]

TL;DR: The Cavaliers are leaving the Magic wide open for three, and the Magic are shooting them, but missing them at an alarming rate.

Someone posted on the GB that the Cavs have also had a little bit of bad shooting luck, so overall luck has benefited the Cavs to the tune of about 5 points per game on average. I think that's a little simplistic, because it's allowed the Cavs to stay home on Paolo and Franz and make them look even worse than they are. But there it is.

Two home games of great shooting could really help...

They have.

At the most simplistic level, the Cavs are shooting 29% from 3PT for the series, well below their season average of 36.7%.

The Magic are shooting 23.6% from 3PT for the series, also well below their season average of 35.2%.

But if you normalize both teams shooting to their averages...

Cavs jump to 25 made threes instead of 20, +15 points.
Magic jump to 25 made threes instead of 17, +24 points.

It would only be a net gain of 9 points for the Magic.

Game 1 would have adjusted to 106-98 Cavs
Game 2 would have adjusted to 102-95 Cavs

So they'd still be down 0-2.

[Skybox]

Some fun with numbers from Stats.NBA.com

It may come as no surprise that the Magic's 23.6% 3P% is good for worst among all playoff teams through the first 2 games. But how well-contested are these threes the Magic are missing?

Through the first 2 games of the playoffs, the Magic have attempted:

• 0 "Very tight" (0-2 ft) contested threes
• 1.5 "Tight" (2-4 ft) contested threes per game (3rd fewest)
• 12.5 "Open" (4-6 ft) threes per game (9th most)
• 22.0 "Wide open" (6+ ft) threes per game (4th most)

... put into context, that means that 61.1% of the Magic's 3PA were wide open, good for 3rd most in the playoffs, and 95.8% were either open or wide open, also good for 3rd most in the playoffs.


and the Magic have converted:

• 0% of "Very tight" (0-2 ft) threes
• 0% of "Tight" (2-4 ft) threes
• 24.0% of "Open" (4-6 ft) threes (3rd worst)
• 25.0% of "Wide open" (6+ ft) threes (worst)

As a result, the Magic have missed 16.5 wide open 3PA per game, good for 3rd most in the playoffs, behind New Orleans (17.0) and Indiana (20.0).


TL;DR: The Cavaliers are leaving the Magic wide open for three, and the Magic are shooting them, but missing them at an alarming rate.

this also illustrates that ORL would be a good home for a legit shooters AND that despite their poor shooting results, the existing ORL players are actually WORSE than their % suggest (since so many shots are open and they STILL manage to miss).

[SOUL]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall to determine who ultimately made the decision to play Fultz.

I can't possibly imagine Mosley could watch this guy every day in practices and games truly believe he was the best option to fill those minutes.

I can't help but wonder if the front office are the ones who truly can't quit Markelle since they acquired him well before Mosley ever even got here.

In the same vein as Amen Thompson moving from backup PG (who we exploited the first game) to starting PF/C for them, I feel like he just has a loose handle and no consistent dribble drive ability or wiggle to create space with his shot.

Guards need that. Jett even has it, we can see him do it on those step-back three with very little space.

Anthony Black gets guarded by a bigger guy and it's curtains sometimes if they can stick with his speed.

That's why I have always looked at him as an Ingles replacement instead of a starting/backup PG.

[Bergmaniac]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall to determine who ultimately made the decision to play Fultz.

I can't possibly imagine Mosley could watch this guy every day in practices and games truly believe he was the best option to fill those minutes.

I can't help but wonder if the front office are the ones who truly can't quit Markelle since they acquired him well before Mosley ever even got here.

I think this is on Mosley and it's because he really priorities team chemistry and having a rapport with the players, which has mostly positive results (the players play very hard for him and for each other and seem to like him and each other a lot) but also some negative ones like givinh a locker room leader rotation minutes despite him falling off a cliff and always been a poor fit with our franchise players.

I doubt the front office has much interest in Markelle at this point, with his contract being expiring and his level of play declining so much. At least i hope so.

[cedric76]

Carter has the Orlando DNA

[SOUL]

Mose barely played Fultz in a win or go home (play-in) scenario and only got minutes last game when Suggs went down, and has been losing minutes all year. Interestingly enough, he has come in for Franz in a lot of lineups down the stretch.

He got minutes earlier in the year because just like a lot of us thought, he was kinda average last year and his shot looked back.