Cavaliers vs Magic Series General Discussion Thread

[Skybox]

Murray is the second option on a contender. We have 5 lotto talents to develop into critical roles, none of which are scoring combo-guards.

Our current build is around two 6'10 scoring wings. It's hard to identify core players, and having to pivot ends up being a death knell for a build.

However, if you are right, we should go hard for Trae.

Trae’s not my first vote (for Paolo’s sake) but it’d be a lot more exciting than hoping AB becomes an NBA starting-level player someday. FO could be a lot less bold (& potentially disruptive) than go for Trae and still make bolder moves than ever.

Why so much pressure on AB? The core is Suggs, Franz, and Paolo. AB projects as a quality starter, with upside to be top 50. Franz and Paolo have the "star" projections. Suggs is knocking on the door if he takes the leap offensively.

Wow…there’s just NOTHING to support this. His ceiling, imo, is a better MCW…Solid defense-first rotation guy with some on-ball ability (just enough to make time at PG viable). Can be deployed 1-3, maybe even some lightweight 4, depending on matchups and physical development. Able and increasingly willing to take wide open 3’s but has no off-the dribble game, despite playing high-level hoops and attending camps since Kindergarten.

He’s Matisse Thybulle, Sean Livingston, maybe Andre Iguodala, not Scottie Pippen…and that’s okay. Only thing he has in common with your vision of Penny Hardaway is height

[SOUL]

this forum/magic twitter be like:

[Knightro]

I wouldn't say Gary has been great, but it's hard to suggest he's been *bad* or has been one of the main problems when Carter, Ingles, Isaac, Fultz and Anthony have all been completely unplayable offensively.

Gary doesn't score enough PPG which is the only thing drsd cares about so he's wanted him gone for years.

Bingo.

The starting SG should never be a team's 5th scoring option: never!

And a sniper from distance at a guard slot will relieve an enormous amount of stress Suggs has in his offensive game. The dude cannot play 100% every play and have a long career. Bodies don't work like that.

Not to be disrespectful, but you should probably actually watch games and not just read box scores before you make sweeping proclamations like this.

I get you have a vendetta against Gary Harris/the idea that a SG is low volume, and I don’t even disagree with the thought that the Magic should look to upgrade his spot, but Harris is not even close to the biggest problem on this team.

He doesn’t shoot a lot because he doesn’t really get the ball a lot. He was 9th on the team in front court touches per game with just 15 front court touches per game.

If you break things down on a “shot attempts per passes received in the front court” level, you’d understand more where the issues lie offensively and it’s not really Gary being awful like you think.

[p0peye]

Gary doesn't score enough PPG which is the only thing drsd cares about so he's wanted him gone for years.

Bingo.

The starting SG should never be a team's 5th scoring option: never!

And a sniper from distance at a guard slot will relieve an enormous amount of stress Suggs has in his offensive game. The dude cannot play 100% every play and have a long career. Bodies don't work like that.

Not to be disrespectful, but you should probably actually watch games and not just read box scores before you make sweeping proclamations like this.

I get you have a vendetta against Gary Harris/the idea that a SG is low volume, and I don’t even disagree with the thought that the Magic should look to upgrade his spot, but Harris is not even close to the biggest problem on this team.

He doesn’t shoot a lot because he doesn’t really get the ball a lot. He was 9th on the team in front court touches per game with just 15 front court touches per game.

If you break things down on a “shot attempts per passes received in the front court” level, you’d understand more where the issues lie offensively and it’s not really Gary being awful like you think.

Precisely, as I explained in my previous message in this topic.

[drsd]

Not to be disrespectful, but you should probably actually watch games and not just read box scores before you make sweeping proclamations like this.

Always have to watch them the next day, because of timezone issues. And I really dislike the NBA.com app. But I do prefer to be legal in my viewing.

I did miss game-2 though. Oddly, a game where G-Harris was a lightning rod. Ten whole FG attempts. WOW.

I get you have a vendetta against Gary Harris/the idea that a SG is low volume, and I don’t even disagree with the thought that the Magic should look to upgrade his spot, but Harris is not even close to the biggest problem on this team.

My "vendetta" is that Orlando is usually playing 4 on 5 on half-court offensive sets. As, as I watch the games wit my eyes, I can see that G-Harris is just camped in one of the two corners in case one of the other 4 players need to make a desperation outlet pass. And he gets about 5 such passes a game. That is not offense. No way and no how. Look at what Redick did as a SG on this team. Always running around forcing teams to switch n screens. G-Harris does none of that.

I guess my "vendetta" started when many here started screaming that Orlando must get a high volume scoring-PG. I have never favored that in a context of Banchero/F-Wagner. The mysterious scorer is not going to get a high volume of shots. A player like Jamal Murray, in my opinion, doesn't fit this team.

G-Harris is a decent backup SG. That's it.

More interesting to me, especially as this conversation itself is not really the point of the Magic's needs, is related to Suggs future on this roster. Is he a PG or a SG? Now: that is an interesting question. It gets back to your point, "Harris is not even close to the biggest problem on this team," unless one believes that Carter is to be upgraded (or that Isaac is a permanent replacement), then the Magic is looking to replace only one of the five starters: G-Harris. That's it. The other four starters are fairly clear for opening night next year.

I always think that starters are more critical than bench players. In that, yes, upgrading G-Harris is more important than upgrading the bench of Anthony, Fultz, Bitadze, and Okeke (and Fultz and Okeke need to go!).

[Skybox]

G-Harris is a decent backup SG. That's it.

.

I think most of us agree on this part...problem is, on this team, he's a starter.

I also have to agree with your comparison to JJ...there really is a positive effect with a shooter who constantly cuts and disrupts - even as a decoy. That's what made JJ as well as Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton special- even as fairly predictable offensive weapons. It's also what separates Steph from other great shooters (aside from the fact that he's a great finisher). Good point - we could use a lot more motion in our half-court sets...rather than watching two 6'10 begin every serious possession with a few between the leg dribbles 25 feet from the hoop.

I still think that doesn't lessen our need for a backcourt ball handler/creator who can put up points (not 10 or 12, and certainly not 4)...I think Suggs is a lot closer to becoming the "JJ Guy" described above than as an offensive creator of significance...so, I think we're still missing the "Jamal Murray PG". Even JJ never scored many PPG...I think that's a more realistic goal for Suggs, "2-Way JJ". Suggs is already a blur on the court and might be the only guy on the team who'll regularly curl off a pick and pull-up. (other shooters are spot up specialists-Caleb, AB, Harris...who knows what Jett is)

If we aim to contend, we'll still have more work to do (after dealing with our backcourt priority)...WCJ may or may not be a part of it. I like him well enough, but he's not starting C on a contender, given the match with our forwards. I'd love a Jarrett Allen but Isaac could also be that guy...and I don't mind WCJ backing him up with significant minutes. I don't know what to think about Goga - we ruined him...showcased him enough to get outside interest, then buried him for most of the season. I'd say he's gone and maybe that's ok. If Isaac is to continue getting significant minutes at C, we'll need another reserve big...I'd love a guy like Portis, with some toughness, rebounding, and shooting.

[JoshuaPotter]

Not to be disrespectful, but you should probably actually watch games and not just read box scores before you make sweeping proclamations like this.

Always have to watch them the next day, because of timezone issues. And I really dislike the NBA.com app. But I do prefer to be legal in my viewing.

I did miss game-2 though. Oddly, a game where G-Harris was a lightning rod. Ten whole FG attempts. WOW.

I get you have a vendetta against Gary Harris/the idea that a SG is low volume, and I don’t even disagree with the thought that the Magic should look to upgrade his spot, but Harris is not even close to the biggest problem on this team.

My "vendetta" is that Orlando is usually playing 4 on 5 on half-court offensive sets. As, as I watch the games wit my eyes, I can see that G-Harris is just camped in one of the two corners in case one of the other 4 players need to make a desperation outlet pass. And he gets about 5 such passes a game. That is not offense. No way and no how. Look at what Redick did as a SG on this team. Always running around forcing teams to switch n screens. G-Harris does none of that.

I guess my "vendetta" started when many here started screaming that Orlando must get a high volume scoring-PG. I have never favored that in a context of Banchero/F-Wagner. The mysterious scorer is not going to get a high volume of shots. A player like Jamal Murray, in my opinion, doesn't fit this team.

G-Harris is a decent backup SG. That's it.

More interesting to me, especially as this conversation itself is not really the point of the Magic's needs, is related to Suggs future on this roster. Is he a PG or a SG? Now: that is an interesting question. It gets back to your point, "Harris is not even close to the biggest problem on this team," unless one believes that Carter is to be upgraded (or that Isaac is a permanent replacement), then the Magic is looking to replace only one of the five starters: G-Harris. That's it. The other four starters are fairly clear for opening night next year.

I always think that starters are more critical than bench players. In that, yes, upgrading G-Harris is more important than upgrading the bench of Anthony, Fultz, Bitadze, and Okeke (and Fultz and Okeke need to go!).

Good grief great post DRSD. I keep saying it. We drafted a "PG" 3 years in a row. Black last year. Paolo year before that. Suggs year before that. Paolo is our point guard. Until someone proves to me otherwise.

I like Harris for who he is. After seeing him and Suggs have conversations in the playoffs live on Bally sports I see the "vision" of keeping Harris.

But lets plug our roster spots in but lets also say that there is no PG/SG just G.

G / Suggs
G / Harris
F / Paolo
F / Franz
C / Isaac or WCJ

Based on identity the hard persons out for more offense are going to be Harris / WCJ. Followed by Isaac before Suggs. This, is not even hard.

We also have to rely on Suggs, Paolo and Franz improving their individual play making and ceilings.

Also ignore all of this. Our bench, imploded. That was supposed to be our strength. A 10-man playoff rotation. Yet they can't seem to get out of each others way. In ironies of ironies the only person on the bench who seems to have playoff energy is Clevelands public enemy no 1 Mo Wagner.

If anything, I want to keep Mo even more.

[Skybox]

Just (attempting to) draft PGs doesn't mean we actually have a viable one on the roster.

You can spit out the words "sunk costs" regularly without actually getting it

[JoshuaPotter]

Just (attempting to) draft PGs doesn't mean we actually have a viable one on the roster.

You can spit out the words "sunk costs" regularly without actually getting it

I love this.

[Bergmaniac]

Bingo.

The starting SG should never be a team's 5th scoring option: never!

Why the hell not? Denver just won a championship and steamrolled everyone in their way with their historically dominant offense with KCP being their SG and fifth scoring option.

Hell, the best Magic team of the last 25 years had a starting SG who was the fifth option.

You're proving my point here. Caldwell-Pope has been a >10ppg guy these last two years. G-Harris has not, and was actually worse this year than last.

Second point: Caldwell-Pope has averaged 4.1 three-ball attempts per game this season, and made them at a 40.6% clip. G-Harris took 3.8 and made them at a 37.1% clip. When Caldwell-Pope is a better three point shooter, one cannot claim "G-Harris is good from 3".

My final point here: Orlando needs a "Caldwell-Pope". And there are about 20 players in the NBA available for that role.

You are moving the goalposts. Fact is, Caldwell-Pope is a 5th option SG and his team is doing great.

Besides, his higher PPG are mostly due to playing more minutes. Per36 minutes Harris has 10.3 PPG, KCP 11.5. Hardly a massive difference. Especially considering KCP plays with the best passer in the league by far while Harris plays on the worst passing team in the league.

And we actually know that Harris can score a lot more if he played with Jokic on a team which isn't a disaster offensively because he's already done it - in 2017/18 he averaged very efficient 17.5 PPG. Yes, he is worse athletically now after his injuries, but not that much worse that he couldn't average 12 PPG on a competent offensive team.

And all the talk that we are playing "4 on 5" when he is on the court is absurd given that we have always been better offensively when he is on the court than when he sits.

Could his position be upgraded? Of course, especially considering his injury issues. But he is very far from our biggest problem. We have by far the worst PG rotation in the league and fixing that should be the priority in the offseason.

[thelead]

In that G-Harris, Okeke, and Fultz have sucked on offense all season, yes I agree. But that is my point.

Do not exclude Cole "54.5% TS% and no defense" Anthony

If we’re being objective, Suggs (who made great improvements) still does not project as a significant scoring option for a contender…good solid 2-way starter…but still lacking offensive creation and scoring. He should be 4th leading scoring on a good team - that’s assuming more growth (12 ppg isn’t enough for the “best” guard on the team.)

No disagreement there BUT Suggs brings defense and intangibles. What is Cole providing if he can’t score efficiently? That was more of my point with Cole.

[Fortune Teller]

The entire backcourt is not good enough for the roles they are playing. The results in the first two games make that clear. Weaknesses are exposed in the playoffs, and our guard rotation is so bad we've become a national joke.

These three moves fell short of expectations and aren't working to date:

1) Bringing back Fultz. He was projected to be the starting PG despite being completely unreliable health-wise and a poor shooter. He allegedly had a great summer and everyone thought he would improve this year. Instead he took 1,000 steps back. The front office never should have re-signed him to begin with, and he certainly shouldn't have been here this year when his expiring contract could have been used in a deal with draft picks.

2) Drafting AB at #6. If your best option at #6 doesn't address any of the team's needs or weaknesses, then you should trade the pick. They drafted Black as a PG but he's barely played the position this year and inexplicably can't beat out Fultz for rotation minutes. If your #6 pick can't crack the rotation of the league's worst backcourt, then you made a mistake. Can Black improve and eventually contribute to this team? Of course, but anyone who says they're happy with Black being an "eventual contributor" is lying. More importantly, if he can't run the offense and is more of a 3-and-D guy, then why make him your pick?

3) (To a lesser extent) drafting Suggs at #5. Yes, Suggs's FG% and 3-ball improved dramatically this year, but again, he was drafted as a PG. It's revisionist history to suggest he was slotted as a 3-and-D SG coming out of the draft. It's also very possible that this year's shooting percentages were an aberration after a god-awful first 2 years in the league. In Games 1 and 2 he looked like rookie year Suggs, and he may already be regressing toward the mean. (I like Suggs a lot, but his shortcomings are part of the reason we are where we are with the guard situation).

So in summary:

1) Fultz (our second-highest paid player) shouldn't even be in the league.
2) AB can't even crack the rotation.
3) Suggs is a great role player, but we were hoping for much more than that when we drafted him #5.

Sometimes it's ok to go after guys who are pure scorers and nothing else. Donovan Mitchell gets a lot of criticism but look what he's doing to our defense-first backcourt.

[Skybox]

Do not exclude Cole "54.5% TS% and no defense" Anthony

If we’re being objective, Suggs (who made great improvements) still does not project as a significant scoring option for a contender…good solid 2-way starter…but still lacking offensive creation and scoring. He should be 4th leading scoring on a good team - that’s assuming more growth (12 ppg isn’t enough for the “best” guard on the team.)

No disagreement there BUT Suggs brings defense and intangibles. What is Cole providing if he can’t score efficiently? That was more of my point with Cole.

going with the initial point re: backcourt offensive impotence...not your post

[Skybox]

The entire backcourt is not good enough for the roles they are playing. The results in the first two games make that clear. Weaknesses are exposed in the playoffs, and our guard rotation is so bad we've become a national joke.

These three moves fell short of expectations and aren't working to date:

1) Bringing back Fultz. He was projected to be the starting PG despite being completely unreliable health-wise and a poor shooter. He allegedly had a great summer and everyone thought he would improve this year. Instead he took 1,000 steps back. The front office never should have re-signed him to begin with, and he certainly shouldn't have been here this year when his expiring contract could have been used in a deal with draft picks.

2) Drafting AB at #6. If your best option at #6 doesn't address any of the team's needs or weaknesses, then you should trade the pick. They drafted Black as a PG but he's barely played the position this year and inexplicably can't beat out Fultz for rotation minutes. If your #6 pick can't crack the rotation of the league's worst backcourt, then you made a mistake. Can Black improve and eventually contribute to this team? Of course, but anyone who says they're happy with Black being an "eventual contributor" is lying. More importantly, if he can't run the offense and is more of a 3-and-D guy, then why make him your pick?

3) (To a lesser extent) drafting Suggs at #5. Yes, Suggs's FG% and 3-ball improved dramatically this year, but again, he was drafted as a PG. It's revisionist history to suggest he was slotted as a 3-and-D SG coming out of the draft. It's also very possible that this year's shooting percentages were an aberration after a god-awful first 2 years in the league. In Games 1 and 2 he looked like rookie year Suggs, and he may already be regressing toward the mean. (I like Suggs a lot, but his shortcomings are part of the reason we are where we are with the guard situation).

So in summary:

1) Fultz (our second-highest paid player) shouldn't even be in the league.
2) AB can't even crack the rotation.
3) Suggs is a great role player, but we were hoping for much more than that when we drafted him #5.

Sometimes it's ok to go after guys who are pure scorers and nothing else. Donovan Mitchell gets a lot of criticism but look what he's doing to our defense-first backcourt.

Suggs, imo, has turned out to be a good pick - just not who we thought he was. He's a rare one - especially if his shooting continues to trend upwards...think a smaller OG Anunoby.

The rest...meh...but we have money and picks to go get the one(s) we clearly need this summer. No excuses, no back to the draft for another try BS...you can do both - develop draftees & acquire NBA players. You kind of have to as draftees nowadays are rarely growing hair on their...chins, let alone playing at an NBA level.

[Knightro]

My "vendetta" is that Orlando is usually playing 4 on 5 on half-court offensive sets. As, as I watch the games wit my eyes, I can see that G-Harris is just camped in one of the two corners in case one of the other 4 players need to make a desperation outlet pass. And he gets about 5 such passes a game. That is not offense. No way and no how. Look at what Redick did as a SG on this team. Always running around forcing teams to switch n screens. G-Harris does none of that.

But this isn't Harris' fault. He doesn't run around and utilize off-ball screens very often because he's simply not tasked with running around off screens very often. The Magic want him to be a catch-and-shoot floor spacer. Redick was one of the best movement shooters in the history of the NBA and every team he played took advantage of that skill set.

Redick wasn't doing any that stuff on his own independent of the plays being run.

You're blaming Harris for something he's being asked to do which doesn't make sense to me.

I guess my "vendetta" started when many here started screaming that Orlando must get a high volume scoring-PG. I have never favored that in a context of Banchero/F-Wagner. The mysterious scorer is not going to get a high volume of shots. A player like Jamal Murray, in my opinion, doesn't fit this team.

This is silly and just not correct. Let's look at the 5 best offenses in the NBA this season and look at the player on their team with the THIRD highest usage rate.

Celtics: 25.1%
Pacers: 23.7%
Thunder: 23.1%
Clippers: 26.5%
Thunder: 21.7%

Right now the Magic have Paolo at 29.7%, Franz at 25.7% and then the third highest USG guy on the team right now is Cole Anthony at 23.7% - you couldn't dump him and Fultz and bring in a high end lead guard to absorb all of their possessions while also helping the top two guys become more efficient?

G-Harris is a decent backup SG. That's it.

No argument from me here. He's a perfectly acceptable rotation shooting guard.

More interesting to me, especially as this conversation itself is not really the point of the Magic's needs, is related to Suggs future on this roster. Is he a PG or a SG? Now: that is an interesting question. It gets back to your point, "Harris is not even close to the biggest problem on this team," unless one believes that Carter is to be upgraded (or that Isaac is a permanent replacement), then the Magic is looking to replace only one of the five starters: G-Harris. That's it. The other four starters are fairly clear for opening night next year.

I always think that starters are more critical than bench players. In that, yes, upgrading G-Harris is more important than upgrading the bench of Anthony, Fultz, Bitadze, and Okeke (and Fultz and Okeke need to go!).

To me personally? Jalen Suggs is CLEARLY a shooting guard with some passing chops that will allow him to do some secondary playmaking on closeouts and in transition and things like that.

He doesn't have the ball handling or the tempo to ever be a full time point guard.

And the reason why Harris is the one being most looked at being replaced in the starting lineup is because he's A. he's the only one of the existing starters that is free agent to be and B. Suggs is better suited to be the starting SG

What would make the Magic better next year and in the future?

Suggs starting at "point guard" and the Magic "upgrading" Gary's shooting guard spot with someone in free agency like KCP or Gary Trent Jr or Klay Thompson, or possibly even trading for a SG like Huerter or LaVine?

Or...

Suggs slides into Gary's starting shooting guard spot and the Magic upgrade their point guard slot with someone like D'Angelo Russell or trading for Dejounte Murray or even a really big swing on someone like Trae Young?

I think it's New PG/Suggs at SG 10 times out of 10.

[JoshuaPotter]

Suggs slides into Gary's starting shooting guard spot and the Magic upgrade their point guard slot with someone like D'Angelo Russell or trading for Dejounte Murray or even a really big swing on someone like Trae Young?

I think it's New PG/Suggs at SG 10 times out of 10.

Oy....

You guys gotta change the rules on the drinking game. My liver cannot take anymore.

For the newbs, take a shot anytime
Knightro mentions Trae Young
"Sunk cost" gets posted
eyriq mentions AB projections
Anytime I have a post less then 5 words

Good luck and whatever God you believe in be with you.

[Knightro]

Oy....

You guys gotta change the rules on the drinking game. My liver cannot take anymore.

For the newbs, take a shot anytime
Knightro mentions Trae Young
"Sunk cost" gets posted
eyriq mentions AB projections
Anytime I have a post less then 5 words

Good luck and whatever God you believe in be with you.

My more overarching point is that I don't think replacing Gary Harris with a better or more willing shooter is going to positively impact things offensively nearly as much as actually having a real point guard on the roster capable of creating offense for himself and others while also being a calming influence that controls the pace and tempo of the game.

[thelead]

Oy....

You guys gotta change the rules on the drinking game. My liver cannot take anymore.

For the newbs, take a shot anytime
Knightro mentions Trae Young
"Sunk cost" gets posted
eyriq mentions AB projections
Anytime I have a post less then 5 words

Good luck and whatever God you believe in be with you.

My more overarching point is that I don't think replacing Gary Harris with a better or more willing shooter is going to positively impact things offensively nearly as much as actually having a real point guard on the roster capable of creating offense for himself and others while also being a calming influence that controls the pace and tempo of the game.

Moreover, finding 1 PG is just a start. We would be smart to find, not only our starting PG, but also a good backup PG. Imagine how much better this team would look with someone like Murray starting and TJ McConnell or Tyus backing him up.

Likely not gonna happen in one summer but that needs to be the goal over the next year or so.

[zaymon]

Oy....

You guys gotta change the rules on the drinking game. My liver cannot take anymore.

For the newbs, take a shot anytime
Knightro mentions Trae Young
"Sunk cost" gets posted
eyriq mentions AB projections
Anytime I have a post less then 5 words

Good luck and whatever God you believe in be with you.

My more overarching point is that I don't think replacing Gary Harris with a better or more willing shooter is going to positively impact things offensively nearly as much as actually having a real point guard on the roster capable of creating offense for himself and others while also being a calming influence that controls the pace and tempo of the game.

Moreover, finding 1 PG is just a start. We would be smart to find, not only our starting PG, but also a good backup PG. Imagine how much better this team would look with someone like Murray starting and TJ McConnell or Tyus backing him up.

Likely not gonna happen in one summer but that needs to be the goal over the next year or so.

Its same for me. I would actually bring second point guard before bringing another shooting guard. Cole Anthony is such unreliable player. He cant adapt to anything, PO are too much for him.

[p0peye]

Oy....

You guys gotta change the rules on the drinking game. My liver cannot take anymore.

For the newbs, take a shot anytime
Knightro mentions Trae Young
"Sunk cost" gets posted
eyriq mentions AB projections
Anytime I have a post less then 5 words

Good luck and whatever God you believe in be with you.

My more overarching point is that I don't think replacing Gary Harris with a better or more willing shooter is going to positively impact things offensively nearly as much as actually having a real point guard on the roster capable of creating offense for himself and others while also being a calming influence that controls the pace and tempo of the game.

I am inclined to believe that things would fall into right slots if that PG is also high scoring 1st option type.

EDIT: Yes, I am now aware some might think I am in Trae bandwagon too, but I was speaking in general terms, not about particular players.