2024 NBA Playoffs Round 1 Game 1: (5) Orlando Magic at (4) Cleveland Cavaliers

[swarlesbarkley]

We need a 2 that doesn't consistently give us zero burgers and we need Fultz not to get any minutes. If we not trying to compete this year, then why not try Jett out there for the Fultz minutes?

I cringed today when I saw Ingles getting significant burn. I cringed even more when Fultz checked in.

[Howard Mass]

The guard scoring or lack there of, killed The Magic today.

It's a glaring weakness.

The good thing is it's only one game. There is another one on Monday.

it is good front office made no trades at the deadline, as now we know. It is something totally hidden during regular season, literally nobody knew we dont have guards.

I saw that they needed more scoring.

There were some moves they could have made like for Buddy Hield. My feeling is they wanted it to play out with this group and maybe they wanted to hold their assets. We don't know how close they might have been to a move.

I do feel something will happen this summer in terms of a scoring shooting guard.

Keep in mind, they also need to get Anthony Black more minutes next year too.

[JF5]

Reinstating Fultz in January over Black with a 9 game win streak against good competition was a monumental error on Moselys part. There is zero upside to playing Fultz at any point this season. People don’t want to believe that, but it’s just true.

Why spend a lotto pick on a guy, give him success in his minutes, and then take that away for a flawed player that won’t and shouldn’t be here next year? Even as a rookie AB has more dimension to his game as well as an actual upside.

I’m not even saying he’s the solution to this offense.. It’s just a logical decision that makes me question Mosely.

You do realize Fultz only started 10 games during that time and went 7-3, right?

What is your point?

I’m saying that Black is a better investment and had early success as a rookie starter. It doesn’t matter what Fultz does if he’s not here next season and the team looks like **** when he’s in the game.

The team struggled after the 9 game win streak in December. They were 21-18 with multiple injuries in early January and they were clearly able to turn it around with their main rotation guys. The aim was to win and they did.

[SOUL]

BTW, I am not arguing the MERITS of Fultz over Black. I don't want Fultz playing, and I think WCJ and Goga is entirely matchup dependent/Goga's presence eliminates Moe Wagner getting any minutes.

However... simply saying that in that ENTIRE 9 game winning streak, Anthony Black didn't score more than 7 points nor dish out more than 3 assists nor hit more than 1 three in all 9 of those games...he had 1 steal. He was simply a solid connector piece.

Goga was legit great on defense and passing.. but again.. one game of 15 points, one of 11.. the rest between 2-8 points.

We then lost 2-11 with Bitadze starting after (quote me if I'm wrong) a Cleveland win. I remember WCJ being back for some wins, then got hurt again and a few other people got hurt too, to be fair to Bitadze, but it's not like he got benched after the 9 game streak. It was a 2-11 streak where people were begging for offense from the center spot or from AB.

And rightly or wrongly, when WCJ and Fultz got hurt, people were expecting more offense than what they've given us..which is why during the entire streak everybody was like "AND we're doing this without Fultz/WCJ, just wait till we're healthy!"

So if the implication is that Goga/AB will enable others - I can dig that. What I cannot entertain is a correlation between those two being answers as to garbage offense.

The starting lineup that closed the season (yes, the one that got off to a bunch of bad starts) has the best net rating out of ALL of our starting lineups.

And if Paolo/Franz can't get going with Isaac starting, who is 3x the player Goga is probably on both sides, I don't know what people are expecting.

[Bensational]

So you're for benching players after one bad game? You'd totally make a great head coach. Hey next time I see Paolo shoot 1-15 or 2-16 I better see that same energy.

Regardless of players recent season averages and recent track record. We'll just bench them. Got it ....

Also, deep bench rookie development in the postseason. ... I've NEVER in my life watching basketball seen teams in the playoffs prioritizing those type of player unless said young player was a core player. You're trying to win games and fighting for your playoff life. Lmao

You’re comparing Paolo to Fultz, Cole and Harris

No wonder you’re confused about where the team’s priorities should be…

I’ve never seen anyone work so hard to defend a 0-17 performance in 57 minutes before. Probably because everybody else realised how absurd it would be to try and never bothered. I hope for your sake you catch on soon enough.

[MagicMatic]

You do realize Fultz only started 10 games during that time and went 7-3, right?

What is your point?

I’m saying that Black is a better investment and had early success as a rookie starter. It doesn’t matter what Fultz does if he’s not here next season and the team looks like **** when he’s in the game.

The team struggled after the 9 game win streak in December. They were 21-18 with multiple injuries in early January and they were clearly able to turn it around with their main rotation guys. The aim was to win and they did.

Yeah that isn’t the crux of the point being made.

The original post is about how there was no upside to playing Fultz over AB earlier in the season at that point. He’s an expiring contract and not worth his current deal.

You spent a lotto pick on a guy, played him real minutes, and pulled him out for a guy that didn’t play half the season. Why? To get your moneys worth on his deal? Short term thinking.

Then he looks like unplayable garbage out there with Gary Harris running around cardio-maxing and I’m told “he’s a vet guys be reasonable playing AB would be a bad decision”. Yeah ok. And I’m not just talking about this game. This has been weeks.

[Optimus_Steel]

Imagine not being able to write a logical reply

So I'd like to ask again... everyone outside of Paolo should be benched for giving nothing today, right?

Should we run the deep bench more next game?

Also, is Anthony Black a better offensive player than Gary Harris and Cole Anthony?

Why bench everyone when 0-17 in the backcourt can be addressed?

Do you actually think 0-17 in 57 minutes on the court is the best that could have been achieved? Do you actually think that standard of play which leads to a loss is more valuable than whatever results come from getting our rookies play time? Do you actually value that production from 2 guys who could very likely be off the team in a matter of weeks over the rookies we're developing? (Oh, and they’re most definitely in the future plans because who was the last player WeHam drafted and traded before their rookie contract was up? None that I can think of).

I don’t have to think Black is a better offensive player, I just have to think that his development is a higher priority than protecting 0-17 performances from guys who have questionable futures with the team. YOU are the one trying to make a case that 0-17 is a calibre of play that shouldn’t be questioned and that is just laughable.

So you're for benching players after one bad game? You'd totally make a great head coach. Hey next time I see Paolo shoot 1-15 or 2-16 I better see that same energy.

Regardless of players recent season averages and recent track record. We'll just bench them. Got it ....

Also, deep bench rookie development in the postseason. ... I've NEVER in my life watching basketball seen teams in the playoffs prioritizing those type of player unless said young player was a core player. You're trying to win games and fighting for your playoff life. Lmao

Exactly. If the Magic were doing that they probably wouldn’t have made the playoffs to begin with. Its hard to win games and make playoffs with young guys being force feed. Our main guys are super young themselves.

[MagicMatic]

Why bench everyone when 0-17 in the backcourt can be addressed?

Do you actually think 0-17 in 57 minutes on the court is the best that could have been achieved? Do you actually think that standard of play which leads to a loss is more valuable than whatever results come from getting our rookies play time? Do you actually value that production from 2 guys who could very likely be off the team in a matter of weeks over the rookies we're developing? (Oh, and they’re most definitely in the future plans because who was the last player WeHam drafted and traded before their rookie contract was up? None that I can think of).

I don’t have to think Black is a better offensive player, I just have to think that his development is a higher priority than protecting 0-17 performances from guys who have questionable futures with the team. YOU are the one trying to make a case that 0-17 is a calibre of play that shouldn’t be questioned and that is just laughable.

So you're for benching players after one bad game? You'd totally make a great head coach. Hey next time I see Paolo shoot 1-15 or 2-16 I better see that same energy.

Regardless of players recent season averages and recent track record. We'll just bench them. Got it ....

Also, deep bench rookie development in the postseason. ... I've NEVER in my life watching basketball seen teams in the playoffs prioritizing those type of player unless said young player was a core player. You're trying to win games and fighting for your playoff life. Lmao

Exactly. If the Magic were doing that they probably wouldn’t have made the playoffs to begin with. Its hard to win games and make playoffs with young guys being force feed. Our main guys are super young themselves.

If this was really true they would have made a move at the deadline.

Pick a lane.

[CocoaFan]

Weltman has been here 7 years and has been completely incapable of adding 3-point shooting (really any shooting) to this team.

He totally blew the 2023 draft. We didn't need more 20-year-old rookies, but he drafted two of them anyway. Worse, neither is good enough to even make the rotation, even though Orlando has the absolute worst backcourt in the NBA (and second-worst isn't close). He should've traded the picks to address obvious weaknesses on this roster. Now we have two stiffs who probably don't even have much trade value (certainly not as much value as they had as numbers 6 and 11 on draft night).

Then he let the trade deadline pass despite having several expiring contracts and guys on rookie deals, in additional to future firsts. He's never added a top-tier free agent, so this summer's cap space is useless. It just feels like all windows have closed while he sat on his hands.

I share the same frustrations that you have with Weltman's inactivity. I wouldn't agree though that this summer's cap space is useless and that our windows are closed. He has a golden opportunity this summer to make something happen and prove he's not a limp dick. If he is he is truly retired in place and needs to be replaced.

[JF5]

So you're for benching players after one bad game? You'd totally make a great head coach. Hey next time I see Paolo shoot 1-15 or 2-16 I better see that same energy.

Regardless of players recent season averages and recent track record. We'll just bench them. Got it ....

Also, deep bench rookie development in the postseason. ... I've NEVER in my life watching basketball seen teams in the playoffs prioritizing those type of player unless said young player was a core player. You're trying to win games and fighting for your playoff life. Lmao

You’re comparing Paolo to Fultz, Cole and Harris

No wonder you’re confused about where the team’s priorities should be…

I’ve never seen anyone work so hard to defend a 0-17 performance in 57 minutes before. Probably because everybody else realised how absurd it would be to try and never bothered. I hope for your sake you catch on soon enough.

Kind of rich as you're the one quitting on players after ONE GAME, in a game where everyone struggled. But eh... glasshouse, right?

[KillMonger]

AB getting minutes is totally warranted if we want to see him over Fultz.

Goga/WCJ are interchangable depending on what looks you want. Although I'd argue if you want to play Goga, you can't play Moe. Or you have to start Goga and bench Isaac now. You can't have two guys operating inside at the same time.

This whole "we won 9 straight games because of AB/Goga" is just unfounded crap. It's happenstance. Our bench was literally ON fire and AB played decent while Goga was a steadying center and played well.

We won 7 games in a row last year with Fultz/Bol Bol starting. Doesn't mean schit.

I disagree, they are part of what won us those games whether it's due to chemistry, playstyle or whatever intangible....what makes that irrefutable to me is, that was the best stretch of basketball we've played all season and we have yet to get back to that... It just so happens that when we replace those two guys in the lineup we go back to playing uneven basketball? Dunno.... Hey maybe it is happenstance, c'est la vie.......cant do anything about it now

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There’s nothing unfounded about it though, the proof is in the lineup data - in which they were net+ and one of our best lineups this season. Refuting that is just wilfully trying to ignore their success.

But that lineup did seem to run out of steam towards the end of their run so it’s equally hard to confirm how sustainable that would’ve been long term.

All I'm trying to say is that in the beginning of the season when we were healthy kelle and Dell wasn't really playing up to standard, then they got hurt... AB and Goga got put in a situation where they probably wasn't ready for but they responded.....not just on paper but the eye test, during that streak it was the best ball we've played.... The ball was moving side to side, players were cutting more... It was just really good ball.... Then we got healthy and made a decision to go back to what was then along the way we stopped playing that brand of ball... But that was obvious because the playstyles are different between those players.....we went away from a better fit for more talent in the lineup and I don't know if we needed to do that or at least do it in that way

Sent from my [Hands] using RealGM mobile app

[SOUL]

All of these things can be true though lol.

Gary Harris is old and unreliable at this point, but our record and net rating going back to last year shows the archetype of player that should be on the team.. just.. a way better option. He's also an underrated defender.

Rotation needs to go to 9 or even 8 in certain playoff games.

The implication of Jett and AB playing more and our record being the same is just wrong. However, the suggestion/willingness of taking some extra Ls to get them reps and devote playing time to them as the future is worth it over Fultz and Ingles, etc... I can't argue against that in terms of ideal scenarios for our future. I agree with it in theory, but I don't think the team/FO/coaches would risk being a play-in team (seeing as we barely made it anyway) just to get two guys with 4th (?) option ceilings more reps. But they can still get sprinkled in more opportunities than they did this year (mostly Jett), but also AB for Fultz minutes.

If Fultz/Harris/Ingles aren't doing their jobs in the playoffs, then they should be benched with other people getting opportunities. That also doesn't mean that Houstan/AB/whoever plays is suddenly the answer and infallible either.. they have to do their job too. Or maybe just straight up go 7-8 deep.

[RookieStar]

All of these things can be true though lol.

Gary Harris is old and unreliable at this point, but our record and net rating going back to last year shows the archetype of player that should be on the team.. just.. a way better option. He's also an underrated defender.

Rotation needs to go to 9 or even 8 in certain playoff games.

The implication of Jett and AB playing more and our record being the same is just wrong. However, the suggestion/willingness of taking some extra Ls to get them reps and devote playing time to them as the future is worth it over Fultz and Ingles, etc... I can't argue against that in terms of ideal scenarios for our future. I agree with it in theory, but I don't think the team/FO/coaches would risk being a play-in team (seeing as we barely made it anyway) just to get two guys with 4th (?) option ceilings more reps. But they can still get sprinkled in more opportunities than they did this year (mostly Jett), but also AB for Fultz minutes.

If Fultz/Harris/Ingles aren't doing their jobs in the playoffs, then they should be benched with other people getting opportunities. That also doesn't mean that Houstan/AB/whoever plays is suddenly the answer and infallible either.. they have to do their job too. Or maybe just straight up go 7-8 deep.

Kinda OT... but Calling Gary old when he isnt even 30 yet makes me feel old

[Bensational]

BTW, I am not arguing the MERITS of Fultz over Black. I don't want Fultz playing, and I think WCJ and Goga is entirely matchup dependent/Goga's presence eliminates Moe Wagner getting any minutes.

However... simply saying that in that ENTIRE 9 game winning streak, Anthony Black didn't score more than 7 points nor dish out more than 3 assists nor hit more than 1 three in all 9 of those games...he had 1 steal. He was simply a solid connector piece.

Goga was legit great on defense and passing.. but again.. one game of 15 points, one of 11.. the rest between 2-8 points.

We then lost 2-11 with Bitadze starting after (quote me if I'm wrong) a Cleveland win. I remember WCJ being back for some wins, then got hurt again and a few other people got hurt too, to be fair to Bitadze, but it's not like he got benched after the 9 game streak. It was a 2-11 streak where people were begging for offense from the center spot or from AB.

And rightly or wrongly, when WCJ and Fultz got hurt, people were expecting more offense than what they've given us..which is why during the entire streak everybody was like "AND we're doing this without Fultz/WCJ, just wait till we're healthy!"

So if the implication is that Goga/AB will enable others - I can dig that. What I cannot entertain is a correlation between those two being answers as to garbage offense.

The starting lineup that closed the season (yes, the one that got off to a bunch of bad starts) has the best net rating out of ALL of our starting lineups.

And if Paolo/Franz can't get going with Isaac starting, who is 3x the player Goga is probably on both sides, I don't know what people are expecting.

A correction/clarification: After the 9 win streak we went 5-9 until AB went to the bench.

And WCJ + Fultz/Harris/Houstan went 4-7 down the stretch, so both lineups had hot runs and flameout endings.

I think the big distinction to make is not to think of Goga and Black being solutions, but rather being alternatives. I mean, C and Guard are the consensus positions of need to upgrade which means WCJ and whoever aren’t making a strong enough case to keep their positions so why not entertain in-house alternatives instead - particularly if one of them has a guaranteed future with the team.

But to be fair, at this stage I think Goga and Black are going to be rusty so I’m not demanding they play. I’d be happy to see it, not expecting it. But the skepticism and outright refusal the proposal meets any time it’s brought up is pretty unjustified.

[neuraldarwinism]

I disagree, they are part of what won us those games whether it's due to chemistry, playstyle or whatever intangible....what makes that irrefutable to me is, that was the best stretch of basketball we've played all season and we have yet to get back to that... It just so happens that when we replace those two guys in the lineup we go back to playing uneven basketball? Dunno.... Hey maybe it is happenstance, c'est la vie.......cant do anything about it now

Sent from my [Hands] using RealGM mobile app

There’s nothing unfounded about it though, the proof is in the lineup data - in which they were net+ and one of our best lineups this season. Refuting that is just wilfully trying to ignore their success.

But that lineup did seem to run out of steam towards the end of their run so it’s equally hard to confirm how sustainable that would’ve been long term.

All I'm trying to say is that in the beginning of the season when we were healthy kelle and Dell wasn't really playing up to standard, then they got hurt... AB and Goga got put in a situation where they probably wasn't ready for but they responded.....not just on paper but the eye test, during that streak it was the best ball we've played.... The ball was moving side to side, players were cutting more... It was just really good ball.... Then we got healthy and made a decision to go back to what was then along the way we stopped playing that brand of ball... But that was obvious because the playstyles are different between those players.....we went away from a better fit for more talent in the lineup and I don't know if we needed to do that or at least do it in that way

Sent from my [Hands] using RealGM mobile app

also before AB's first start magic were not playing well--4-4 record. 3 of the wins were against early season rockets, jazz (barely won), and blazers (barely won).

[eyriq]

Imagine writing that much in defense of a collective 0-17 performance from 3 guards in 57 minutes of court time.

Imagine not being able to write a logical reply

So I'd like to ask again... everyone outside of Paolo should be benched for giving nothing today, right?

Should we run the deep bench more next game?

Also, is Anthony Black a better offensive player than Gary Harris and Cole Anthony?

Why bench everyone when 0-17 in the backcourt can be addressed?

Do you actually think 0-17 in 57 minutes on the court is the best that could have been achieved? Do you actually think that standard of play which leads to a loss is more valuable than whatever results come from getting our rookies play time? Do you actually value that production from 2 guys who could very likely be off the team in a matter of weeks over the rookies we're developing? (Oh, and they’re most definitely in the future plans because who was the last player WeHam drafted and traded before their rookie contract was up? None that I can think of).

I don’t have to think Black is a better offensive player, I just have to think that his development is a higher priority than protecting 0-17 performances from guys who have questionable futures with the team. YOU are the one trying to make a case that 0-17 is a calibre of play that shouldn’t be questioned and that is just laughable.

You are cooking here and highlighting the absurdity of protecting the precious playing time of the free agent guards while lotto talent rots.

[Bensational]

For the record:

Harris going 0-5 can be excused because he played great defense. It’s not what you want, but he made up for it on defense. He’s our 2nd best guard behind Suggs.

Cole going 0-7 should see his minutes limited to how hot his hand is. He only played 11 minutes but after he went 0-4 he shouldn’t have seen the court again.

Fultz going 0-4 in almost 13 minutes is just 13 minutes of wasted court time. Black or Houstan should be playing over him if Mosley insists on staying 10 deep.

[eyriq]

JI played 29 minutes today... had 3 steals, 3 blocks, and shot 2-4 from deep and we still lost. The guards were just straight trash today. Nothing could overcome how bad the backcourt was on offense.

But do we rush it and make a trade or overpay someone, or do we just give AB and Jett a chance. Talking next year, of course.

This is a great question. Unpopular opinion here, there isn't a rush. We have several seasons yet until Paolo and Franz are All-NBA. Player development offers the brightest future while ceilings are still so high. Give AB and Jett a chance.

[thelead]

JI played 29 minutes today... had 3 steals, 3 blocks, and shot 2-4 from deep and we still lost. The guards were just straight trash today. Nothing could overcome how bad the backcourt was on offense.

But do we rush it and make a trade or overpay someone, or do we just give AB and Jett a chance. Talking next year, of course.

This is a great question. Unpopular opinion here, there isn't a rush. We have several seasons yet until Paolo and Franz are All-NBA. Player development offers the brightest future before ceilings are still so high. Give AB and Jett a chance.

I don't think it's a great question at all. Do you limit the number of ingredients you give to a 5-star chef? Do you limit a rising organization's hiring if they have the budget because you have some good recruits coming in from an Ivey league school? No. You don't.

As a GM, your job is to accumulate as much top-flight talent as possible.

[SOUL]

A correction/clarification: After the 9 win streak we went 5-9 until AB went to the bench.

I was looking at the Goga stuff, not sure about AB.

After the 9 game streak, we had lost (with Goga starting/WCJ bench or out):BOS two times, MIA - (next 3 games were WCJ starting), won in NY, lost in PHX-GS-SAC, W vs ATL, lost versus MIN-MIA-OKC, won in NY, lost vs ATL-PHI... so I'm counting 3-11 with him as starter, but obviously a lot of diff injury stuff.

But to be fair, at this stage I think Goga and Black are going to be rusty so I’m not demanding they play. I’d be happy to see it, not expecting it. But the skepticism and outright refusal the proposal meets any time it’s brought up is pretty unjustified.

I think the push back is mostly from particular posts/posters that imply they are the answers or that this team would be the same if not better by playing Goga/AB/Jett, often citing a 9 game winning streak that was powered by our bench.

Presenting these guys are options instead of answers frames the argument in an entirely different way where I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Why not have a look at them when others are struggling?

Like I said, I have a lot of vested interest in AB (traded a lot for him in my NY BAF team lol) so I have high hopes of his future. Also I have been on record saying I would've re-signed Goga over Moe Wagner. Still probably would.