Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not?

[tooler]

I'm dropping in from the offseason to comment on Franz.

People are prisoners of a moment when it comes to recent playoffs, especially game 7, and lot of things aren't taken in consideration.

I really like Franz, and I know Paolo still has some major flaws. I think my biggest concern with Franz is he feels like a front runner at the moment. He does a lot of damage against bad defenses and struggles against good defenses that take away what makes him efficient. You average everything up over a season and a series and he looks like a really efficient player. Then you put him against a good defense in another team's arena in the playoffs and he struggles to do anything.

In some ways, Franz is like a microcosm of the Magic themselves. When defenses allow them to run their game, and when their shots are falling (at home, or by luck of the draw) then their offense is functional and sometimes even really good! When good defenses take that way, they have no versatility on offense to deal with it.

That doesn't mean I think the team is doomed or he doesn't deserve a max contract. It's just that both he and the team have a lot of work to do. I'm confident they can do it. But at the moment it's a real problem.

[pepe1991]

I'm dropping in from the offseason to comment on Franz.

People are prisoners of a moment when it comes to recent playoffs, especially game 7, and lot of things aren't taken in consideration.

I really like Franz, and I know Paolo still has some major flaws. I think my biggest concern with Franz is he feels like a front runner at the moment. He does a lot of damage against bad defenses and struggles against good defenses that take away what makes him efficient. You average everything up over a season and a series and he looks like a really efficient player. Then you put him against a good defense in another team's arena in the playoffs and he struggles to do anything.

In some ways, Franz is like a microcosm of the Magic themselves. When defenses allow them to run their game, and when their shots are falling (at home, or by luck of the draw) then their offense is functional and sometimes even really good! When good defenses take that way, they have no versatility on offense to deal with it.

That doesn't mean I think the team is doomed or he doesn't deserve a max contract. It's just that both he and the team have a lot of work to do. I'm confident they can do it. But at the moment it's a real problem.

Imo biggest strenght of Paolo- Franz combo is fact that they are both so tall and most teams don't have size to contain both ( sometimes neither ).

Good defense can still lock us because we lack creativity and spacing. That's why so many of us cry for playmaker i guess.

[zaymon]

I'm dropping in from the offseason to comment on Franz.

People are prisoners of a moment when it comes to recent playoffs, especially game 7, and lot of things aren't taken in consideration.

I really like Franz, and I know Paolo still has some major flaws. I think my biggest concern with Franz is he feels like a front runner at the moment. He does a lot of damage against bad defenses and struggles against good defenses that take away what makes him efficient. You average everything up over a season and a series and he looks like a really efficient player. Then you put him against a good defense in another team's arena in the playoffs and he struggles to do anything.

In some ways, Franz is like a microcosm of the Magic themselves. When defenses allow them to run their game, and when their shots are falling (at home, or by luck of the draw) then their offense is functional and sometimes even really good! When good defenses take that way, they have no versatility on offense to deal with it.

That doesn't mean I think the team is doomed or he doesn't deserve a max contract. It's just that both he and the team have a lot of work to do. I'm confident they can do it. But at the moment it's a real problem.

Imo biggest strenght of Paolo- Franz combo is fact that they are both so tall and most teams don't have size to contain both ( sometimes neither ).

Good defense can still lock us because we lack creativity and spacing. That's why so many of us cry for playmaker i guess.

I really like this "creative" remark. They are both more methodical and teached than naturally creative. Franz is more risk averse and Paolo more wild but in the end its hard for them to outsmart and manipulate the opponent.

[Skybox]

I'm dropping in from the offseason to comment on Franz.

I really like Franz, and I know Paolo still has some major flaws. I think my biggest concern with Franz is he feels like a front runner at the moment. He does a lot of damage against bad defenses and struggles against good defenses that take away what makes him efficient. You average everything up over a season and a series and he looks like a really efficient player. Then you put him against a good defense in another team's arena in the playoffs and he struggles to do anything.

In some ways, Franz is like a microcosm of the Magic themselves. When defenses allow them to run their game, and when their shots are falling (at home, or by luck of the draw) then their offense is functional and sometimes even really good! When good defenses take that way, they have no versatility on offense to deal with it.

That doesn't mean I think the team is doomed or he doesn't deserve a max contract. It's just that both he and the team have a lot of work to do. I'm confident they can do it. But at the moment it's a real problem.

Imo biggest strenght of Paolo- Franz combo is fact that they are both so tall and most teams don't have size to contain both ( sometimes neither ).

Good defense can still lock us because we lack creativity and spacing. That's why so many of us cry for playmaker i guess.

I really like this "creative" remark. They are both more methodical and teached than naturally creative. Franz is more risk averse and Paolo more wild but in the end it's hard for them to outsmart and manipulate the opponent.

Yeah...you pretty much know what they're going to do...still VERY tough to stop. But doubling down and stripping at the ball is effective...One more creative perimeter scorer would make it really tough to beat.

[bigdogdylan5]

I will die on the hill that the most unfortunate thing to happen to the magic is they had this big step up at the same time the Wolves and Thunder take big steps led by young players. It makes our accomplishments not feel as damn impressive as they were. Are we really critiquing Franz at 22 year old for not dominating a more experienced team in his first playoffs? One thing I am very confident in is if we give Franz a max after year one of that new deal (2 years from now) I have a feeling we will not regret it. He is still scratching the surface of his potential same with Paolo.

[eyriq]

I will die on the hill that the most unfortunate thing to happen to the magic is they had this big step up at the same time the Wolves and Thunder take big steps led by young players. It makes our accomplishments not feel as damn impressive as they were. Are we really critiquing Franz at 22 year old for not dominating a more experienced team in his first playoffs? One thing I am very confident in is if we give Franz a max after year one of that new deal (2 years from now) I have a feeling we will not regret it. He is still scratching the surface of his potential same with Paolo.

I think you nailed it, but there's an also an effect coming from more national exposure. We're getting talking heads opinions that apparently can't evaluate young players? Truly odd, especially from Bobby Marks. You think he'd be good at this stuff?.

[Knightro]

I will die on the hill that the most unfortunate thing to happen to the magic is they had this big step up at the same time the Wolves and Thunder take big steps led by young players. It makes our accomplishments not feel as damn impressive as they were. Are we really critiquing Franz at 22 year old for not dominating a more experienced team in his first playoffs? One thing I am very confident in is if we give Franz a max after year one of that new deal (2 years from now) I have a feeling we will not regret it. He is still scratching the surface of his potential same with Paolo.

The OKC/Minnesota comparisons are just so silly (not saying you're doing it).

OKC has a very young team overall, but their best player is still a guy who is about to turn 26 years old and is two years into his second contract. Could Paolo be an all-NBA player like SGA is when he reaches Year 6? He might be!

As far as Minnesota goes...

Anthony Edwards is obviously incredibly special, but Minnesota's 2nd and 3rd best players are a 28-year-old 4x all-star and a 31-year-old 3x all-star and 4x Defensive Player of the Year.

The Magic might have won the East *this year* if you stuck a 4x all-star and another 3x all-star/4x DPOY into their rotation

[Skybox]

I will die on the hill that the most unfortunate thing to happen to the magic is they had this big step up at the same time the Wolves and Thunder take big steps led by young players. It makes our accomplishments not feel as damn impressive as they were. Are we really critiquing Franz at 22 year old for not dominating a more experienced team in his first playoffs? One thing I am very confident in is if we give Franz a max after year one of that new deal (2 years from now) I have a feeling we will not regret it. He is still scratching the surface of his potential same with Paolo.

I think you nailed it, but there's an also an effect coming from more national exposure. We're getting talking heads opinions that apparently can't evaluate young players? Truly odd, especially from Bobby Marks. You think he'd be good at this stuff?.

What did Bobby Marx say (and where)?

He's one of the few national guys that I really respect.

[basketballRob]

I will die on the hill that the most unfortunate thing to happen to the magic is they had this big step up at the same time the Wolves and Thunder take big steps led by young players. It makes our accomplishments not feel as damn impressive as they were. Are we really critiquing Franz at 22 year old for not dominating a more experienced team in his first playoffs? One thing I am very confident in is if we give Franz a max after year one of that new deal (2 years from now) I have a feeling we will not regret it. He is still scratching the surface of his potential same with Paolo.

I think you nailed it, but there's an also an effect coming from more national exposure. We're getting talking heads opinions that apparently can't evaluate young players? Truly odd, especially from Bobby Marks. You think he'd be good at this stuff?.

What did Bobby Marx say (and where)?

He's one of the few national guys that I really respect.

https://youtu.be/TxIsws_3xX4?feature=shared

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Skybox]

I think you nailed it, but there's an also an effect coming from more national exposure. We're getting talking heads opinions that apparently can't evaluate young players? Truly odd, especially from Bobby Marks. You think he'd be good at this stuff?.

What did Bobby Marx say (and where)?

He's one of the few national guys that I really respect.

https://youtu.be/TxIsws_3xX4?feature=shared

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Thanks...He's the best and he's right on the money (literally) as always. He's high on ORL. Franz is great. Suggs is great...not a max.
I don't think Weltman's given out a bad overpay yet...other than re-upping Fultz. He's all about building the team responsibly.

[bigdogdylan5]

I will die on the hill that the most unfortunate thing to happen to the magic is they had this big step up at the same time the Wolves and Thunder take big steps led by young players. It makes our accomplishments not feel as damn impressive as they were. Are we really critiquing Franz at 22 year old for not dominating a more experienced team in his first playoffs? One thing I am very confident in is if we give Franz a max after year one of that new deal (2 years from now) I have a feeling we will not regret it. He is still scratching the surface of his potential same with Paolo.

The OKC/Minnesota comparisons are just so silly (not saying you're doing it).

OKC has a very young team overall, but their best player is still a guy who is about to turn 26 years old and is two years into his second contract. Could Paolo be an all-NBA player like SGA is when he reaches Year 6? He might be!

As far as Minnesota goes...

Anthony Edwards is obviously incredibly special, but Minnesota's 2nd and 3rd best players are a 28-year-old 4x all-star and a 31-year-old 3x all-star and 4x Defensive Player of the Year.

The Magic might have won the East *this year* if you stuck a 4x all-star and another 3x all-star/4x DPOY into their rotation

Yep totally not good comparisons especially with Minnesota for all reasons you’d said. Hell I feel like you take Mike Conley and put him on our team we beat the cavs in probably 6. Also I bet that team really plays Boston well

[bigdogdylan5]

I think you nailed it, but there's an also an effect coming from more national exposure. We're getting talking heads opinions that apparently can't evaluate young players? Truly odd, especially from Bobby Marks. You think he'd be good at this stuff?.

What did Bobby Marx say (and where)?

He's one of the few national guys that I really respect.

https://youtu.be/TxIsws_3xX4?feature=shared

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

No one wants to put out an actual number they just say not a max. By no max is it ok to pay him 5 years 42 a year? lol. If we got him for 35 I would be happy. If they max him I will not blink an eye.

[eyriq]

Why doesn't Franz get more credit for being our best defensive player?

[The-Stallion70]

People are prisioners of a moment when it comes to recent playoffs, especially game 7, and lot of things aren't taken in considiration.

Cavs lost Allen ( literlly, allstar, top 10 center in nba) and it forced them to play bunch of undersized guys on Paolo full time.
Shifting on defense from Mobley on Banchero to 6'4 Okoro and fat 6'7 Niang opened game for Banchero.

It took me a while to find exect numbers, but optics about Banchero's peformances, in contrast of Franz and his changed in moment Allen got hurt.

Mobley, for a majority of the series, was lined up with Paolo Banchero, an All-Star, who proved himself as a growing weapon in this year’s playoffs but not against Mobley. Banchero was 16 of 50 from the field and 4 of 13 from 3-point range, along with nine turnovers in his matchup minutes against Mobley. Wendell Carter Jr., when Mobley had to switch over to him, especially with Allen missing the final three games of the series, Carter scored a grand total of 18 points against Evan Mobley on 8 of 23 from the field and 2 of 9 from 3-point range.

And Paolo shot naer 50% from mid range, 40% from 3 and despite all that it was still just enough for rather mediocre 54% TS.
Franz was pathetic at 3, had one of worst game 7s in recent history, and still shot 54% TS.

This idea that Paolo is now so much better and impactful than Franz, based on one lobsided matchup he had ( and kind a took adventage of ) is silly. In most games we played Franz was up there with him in terms of importance, especially on defense.

Also playmaking and passing was , in playoffs, better from Franz than Paolo.
Franz 31 assists, 9 turnovers.
Banchero 28 assists, 32 turnovers.

Yet nobody talks about Banchero's turnovers. Nobody. But people love to throw that " point forward" label onto him, in mean time Josh Hart had more assists in playoff series ( in 6 games) than Paolo in 7 , on like 20 turnovers less.

Good references with the stats but I want to add that comparing Franz stats to Banchero's are not direct apples-to-apples comparison because defenses as a whole are keying on Paolo first and Franz second.

A good barometer for Franz value would be to see if he could really carry us is Paolo is absent.

[fendilim]

Franz is actually built like a unicorn if you think about it. He is close to 7’, long, and moves really well for his size at small forward.

Do I think the Magic should pay him the max? Yes. But does he deserve the max? No.

Max because he is one of our top 2 players. And top 1 and 2 are usually maxed especially for a winning team like us.

I don’t believe he deserves the max, not really a game 7 thing. But game 7 just proved it further. Its one thing to have a bad shooting day, but to have a bad shooting day AND be rattled, I’m not sure how we can rely on him when we need him the most.

Like I said, the guy defers to his teammates. He doesn’t have that killer instincts. Top players of contending teams usually have that mindset of taking over.

Its fine if he defers to Paolo alone, but he defers to other teammates as well.

[The-Stallion70]

Their age?

Franz is 22 years old.

Cam Johnson was a 23 year old rookie and signed his extension at age 27.

You missed my point, you don't have to attack everything you see on here.

I'm saying he should get max considering they play the same position and him being 4 years younger and is a better player. $108M for Cam really helps set the market for rookie SF extensions.

I apologize for misunderstanding.

It just didn’t seem like Johnson was all that good of a comparison *because* of their ages.

Cam also didn’t get an extension and instead went all the way into restricted free agency.

But I get what you were saying and see where I got mixed up.

Its all good I can also see how my statement could have been construed that way.

[Skybox]

When I’ve got a little time to waste, I’ll try to find the number of guys getting max rookie extensions in recent years (and who)…at least speaking for myself, there may be a broad disconnect among us as to what is a “max” worthy player. I think it’s an even more elite group than All-Star, but maybe the rookie extensions are thrown around more liberally. I would add that 5he only place I’ve heard people labeling Franz as a max extension guy is here, among ORL fans.

I’m really curious about the context as some of the examples were clearly overpays.

For a veteran max - it’s clearly a LOT more money, so maybe it’s a whole different context.

[The-Stallion70]

I will die on the hill that the most unfortunate thing to happen to the magic is they had this big step up at the same time the Wolves and Thunder take big steps led by young players. It makes our accomplishments not feel as damn impressive as they were. Are we really critiquing Franz at 22 year old for not dominating a more experienced team in his first playoffs? One thing I am very confident in is if we give Franz a max after year one of that new deal (2 years from now) I have a feeling we will not regret it. He is still scratching the surface of his potential same with Paolo.

There are always going to be contenders for our spot. The Magic had a really good team during the Dwight years but as good as we were we just weren't better than the Lakers or Celtics during that time. Not saying we won't eclipse okc or Minnesota but I am using this example.

This thing is more of an arms race than it is a continual gardening project. If the Magic all of a sudden get Devin Booker then I put us at the top of the East with Boston.

[byeganyo]

When I’ve got a little time to waste, I’ll try to find the number of guys getting max rookie extensions in recent years (and who)…at least speaking for myself, there may be a broad disconnect among us as to what is a “max” worthy player. I think it’s an even more elite group than All-Star, but maybe the rookie extensions are thrown around more liberally. I would add that 5he only place I’ve heard people labeling Franz as a max extension guy is here, among ORL fans.

I’m really curious about the context as some of the examples were clearly overpays.

For a veteran max - it’s clearly a LOT more money, so maybe it’s a whole different context.

I looked into it a month ago, class of 2017 - Donovan Mitchell, Jayson Tatum, Bam Adebayo, De’Aaron Fox
Class of 2018 - Luka Doncic, Trae Young, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Michael Porter Jr.
Class of 2019 - Ja Morant, Darius Garland, Zion Williamson
Class of 2020 - LaMelo Ball, Anthony Edwards and Tyrese Haliburton

So it's 3-4 guys a year, plus several more getting near max.

2021 there are more candidates than usual - Scottie Barnes, Cade, Sengun, Franz, Mobley...

[The-Stallion70]

When I’ve got a little time to waste, I’ll try to find the number of guys getting max rookie extensions in recent years (and who)…at least speaking for myself, there may be a broad disconnect among us as to what is a “max” worthy player. I think it’s an even more elite group than All-Star, but maybe the rookie extensions are thrown around more liberally. I would add that 5he only place I’ve heard people labeling Franz as a max extension guy is here, among ORL fans.

I’m really curious about the context as some of the examples were clearly overpays.

For a veteran max - it’s clearly a LOT more money, so maybe it’s a whole different context.

I looked into it a month ago, class of 2017 - Donovan Mitchell, Jayson Tatum, Bam Adebayo, De’Aaron Fox
Class of 2018 - Luka Doncic, Trae Young, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Michael Porter Jr.
Class of 2019 - Ja Morant, Darius Garland, Zion Williamson
Class of 2020 - LaMelo Ball, Anthony Edwards and Tyrese Haliburton

So it's 3-4 guys a year, plus several more getting near max.

2021 there are more candidates than usual - Scottie Barnes, Cade, Sengun, Franz, Mobley...

I feel more comfortable giving Franz a max than Cade. Cade looked like a chucker when we played them, he was taking contested three pointers with lots of time left on the clock.

Cade's contract may play out a bit like Colin Sexton's did.