I think we overrate Dwight Howard's impact

[mhectorgato]

for half a season does not mean that they should now be compared. Now while you claim you were not comparing here you are now doing even more comparing. half season stat comparisons as extrapolations of what would continue are worthless. totally and absolutely worthless. Paul has a sampler size that greatly outstretches Jameers stats this year.

Does their past performances do anything for their respective teams this year?

Horse nonsense. theres a reason why last season he found himself being benched. It was not that Stan didn't notice his play. It was substantially below what it was this year. this year he was hitting the clutch shot, Playing under more control and making better decisions. Multitudes of Arroyo threads bear testament to the reality that jameer was not merely just being noticed this year. He was not as good in previous seasons - not consistently. Some of that is in the stats and frankly some aren't.

And for 1/2 of last year and the playoffs and 1/2 of this year he's been playing the way he's been now. His game style hasn't changed much from when he first came to us anyways.

Players don't take extra notice of other players that are having all star season's? Do tell. I think we should just make a Jameer forum for you guys. Now we have detailed stats on how a player that is all star material for years is comparable to a player that is one for less than half a season. Do you realize how silly it is to take any players two month record and use it as a base of comparison to virtually a players entire career?

Not comparing entire careers as you insist. We are comparing their play and impact THIS season.

Why should I not be surprised after all this is the thread where people are claiming Jameer is more important than Dwight. I tell you what? If Jameer comes back we can move Dwight in a trade. Forget hedo as our only tradeable asset. Since the rest of the league is so stupid we could get virtually anyone for Dwight (maybe besides Kobe, Wade and Lebron) . Wonder why that would not be the same for Jameer? After all he is our MVP right?

Those people have as much basis in their opinion as you do.

You can try to assert that your opinion carries more weight, but in reality it doesn't.

[mhectorgato]

BTW - Maginno as you like to say "I'm officially done" with you in this thread.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Otherwise feel free to type away in vain.

[maginno]

Rationality is the only thing that carries weight. You projection of what a player would be for this team for an entire season based on two months of play is illogical. If Jameer had had an all star year last year he would have been considered. he wasn't because he didn't. Stick your head in the ground if you wish but jameer was considered for the all star status not based on mere stats but by play that cannot be measured by by stats.

Undeniable fact. last year when we needed a go to player to make a shot it was Hedo. Jameer this year is not the Jameer of last year. Wake up and smell the coffee. He was not ignored or unnoticed last year. he was not worthy of being an ALL star last year. Hence its not his same play.

At the end of the day this thread carries no weight. its beyond any rational discussion to claim that jameer is even close to being as important to the magic as Dwight. No NBA GM would agree because we all know if we traded Dwight we could get back almost any player in the league and if we traded Jameer there would be countless teams that would laugh in our face if we asked for their star player.

Case closed

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

"Hey guys, just looked into the end of this thread to see what its about and oh... Wait a minute".

*Slowly, and warily backs out of a hijacked Maggino thread*

[Bensational]

"Hey guys, just looked into the end of this thread to see what its about and oh... Wait a minute".

*Slowly, and warily backs out of a hijacked Maggino thread*

LOL. i have the best picture of that in my mind.

[aleZ]

Undeniable fact. last year when we needed a go to player to make a shot it was Hedo. Jameer this year is not the Jameer of last year. Wake up and smell the coffee. He was not ignored or unnoticed last year. he was not worthy of being an ALL star last year. Hence its not his same play.

I agree, he just wasn't the same player: some guys here have been wearing their homer glasses a bit too long this year, some of these claims are truly pointless. I don't see Nelson as a AllStar kind of player nor in the same league as DwightHoward or ChrisPaul, just because he lacks some of those guys's skills or athleticism. the TEAM and COACHING has helped him improve and he's still key to the Magic's success, but that doesn't mean we should put Jameer in the HOF yet.

[B-Rich]

Over an 82 game season, Dwight Howard is the heart and soul of this team. Period. To suggest his impact is overrated because we won a few times without him is silly.

[mhectorgato]

Granted. . of course if you take away Dwight or any of top-4 away, were going to struggle! Of course if Dwight goes down this team goes no-where. That's common sense! But that's with any team....The Spurs(Duncan), Lakers(Bynum), Boston(K.G)

The way our roster is setup. . .damn near any of our Top-4 can't be replaced because of their roles. But IMO Jameers is huge!!

Except with the Lakers they still have Pow!.

[Devin 1L]

Undeniable fact. last year when we needed a go to player to make a shot it was Hedo. Jameer this year is not the Jameer of last year. Wake up and smell the coffee. He was not ignored or unnoticed last year. he was not worthy of being an ALL star last year. Hence its not his same play.

I agree, he just wasn't the same player: some guys here have been wearing their homer glasses a bit too long this year, some of these claims are truly pointless. I don't see Nelson as a AllStar kind of player nor in the same league as DwightHoward or ChrisPaul, just because he lacks some of those guys's skills or athleticism. the TEAM and COACHING has helped him improve and he's still key to the Magic's success, but that doesn't mean we should put Jameer in the HOF yet.

Really?

[maginno]

He obviously meant on an ongoing basis. He wasn't denying that Jameer made the all stars this year.

[SOUL]

Not like he was an all star or anything...

[Devin 1L]

He obviously meant on an ongoing basis. He wasn't denying that Jameer made the all stars this year.

No, not necessarily.

He said: "I don't see Nelson as a AllStar kind of player"

And I replied: "Really?"

I wasn't suggesting that he was denying that Jameer made the all star team, but rather asking him if he really doesn't see Nelson as an all star kind of player.

For example, I don't see Iverson as an all star kind of player. Am I denying that he made the all star team? Umm, no.

[lovehoops01]

I disagree with the original post. Plenty of other people have cited the stats here to prove the point. Not to mention the fact that big men never get the credit the little guys do. Notice how you pointed to Kobe and LeBron. And they are the next Jordan. When Kobe and Shaq were together, people even gave Kobe a lot of credit for making Shaq look better than he did. Not to mention the fact that the game is officiated to benefit the guards. Anyone touches the tips of their fingers, and they go to the free-throw line, whereas the big men have to have someone take a limb off or bruise them seriously before they get a call.

Regarding his focus and leadership, have you noticed that he is talking with his teammates and trying to take more of a leadership role -- even before Jameer went down and especially now that he is hurt? Because he is. Most of the time, though, he waits to do it when the team is off the floor, and not when the cameras are focused on them. In fact, I sometimes wonder if Hedo wants to hear from him as often as he does.

I don't think the team's falloff since Jameer has been hurt has anything to do with Dwight's focus. Have you noticed that Rashard and Hedo are having a tougher time scoring and also that the other point guards can't meet Jameer's totals in either points or assists? That is part of the problem. I actually think Hedo's focus seems to have been off most of the season, although he has had many very good nights. Not to mention that they haven't been running the fast break nearly as much since Jameer got hurt, and that is one of their most reliable scoring options. And rarely is anyone else succeeding hitting him for an alley oop. Quite a few turnovers are being made because, as Stan has said, they fail at making the spectacular play instead of just trying to make the easy play.

Also, in the past four or five years, this team almost always has played poorly from just before the start of Christmas until after the All-Star break. This season, they managed to put off their lull until about the third week of January. I think they have shown a great deal of maturity and focus this season.It is quite an adjustment to lose your starting point guard, though -- espeically when the backup unit hasn't been playing that well all season.

[aleZ]

Really?

You don't waste too many words uh?

Anyway yes, I don't see Nelson as a All-Star caliber player, more like a good player who sometimes can make it (think Caron Butler for example). Those guys who still have flaws in their game but sometimes overcome all of it and have incredible years.

That doesn't mean he sucks or anything, he's just a couple steps behind the likes of nash, paul, arenas, etc

[drsd]

If Nate can beat Dwight in a dunk contest, Howard has clearly lost a step.

[Happyfoosball]

Before Shaq signed with LA a lot of people thought he was Orlando's second best player. Because sometimes people don't notice the effect having a physically dominant big man has on the game. You don't see it if your not looking for it. I remember the Magic with T-Mac. I remember not being able to get rebounds and having post up players rip orlando apart, guards going to the rim at will. That type of a team rarely if ever wins a title. We are so lucky to have Dwight on the Magic and in reality if he weren't here neither would Lewis. He'd have gone somewhere else if Orlando had picked Okafor. Nelson, Hedo, and Lewis are all really good players but Dwights the glue that holds it all together. Take away Dwight and it would all unravel I promise you.

[eyriq]

For those that are ridiculously knocking Nelson's skillz, this list is for you;
Edit, hell, let me add some more

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-CLE 31.8
2. Chris Paul-NOH 29.7
3. Dwyane Wade-MIA 28.1
4. Dwight Howard-ORL 25.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 25.3
6. Kobe Bryant-LAL 25.1
7. Brandon Roy-POR 24.0
8. Yao Ming-HOU 23.5
9. Al Jefferson-MIN 23.3
10. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 23.1
11. Devin Harris-NJN 22.7
12. Chris Bosh-TOR 22.4
13. Pau Gasol-LAL 22.0
14. Tony Parker-SAS 21.3
15. Shaquille O'Neal-PHO 21.3
16. Kevin Garnett-BOS 21.2
17. Danny Granger-IND 21.1
18. Jameer Nelson-ORL 20.9
19. Kevin Durant-OKC 20.8
20. Deron Williams-UTA 20.8

Effective Field Goal Pct
1. Nene Hilario-DEN .611
2. Shaquille O'Neal-PHO .584
3. Emeka Okafor-CHA .582
4. Ray Allen-BOS .582
5. Jameer Nelson-ORL .580
6. Troy Murphy-IND .571
7. Andris Biedrins-GSW .568
8. David Lee-NYK .564
9. Dwight Howard-ORL .564
10. Pau Gasol-LAL .561
11. Andrew Bynum-LAL .558
12. Paul Millsap-UTA .548
13. Grant Hill-PHO .548
14. Yao Ming-HOU .544
15. Rashard Lewis-ORL .544
16. Maurice Williams-CLE .539
17. Roger Mason-SAS .536
18. Mehmet Okur-UTA .535
19. Boris Diaw-TOT .534
Steve Nash-PHO .534

Offensive Rating
1. Pau Gasol-LAL 126.5
2. Chris Paul-NOH 124.3
3. Jose Calderon-TOR 124.1
4. Carl Landry-HOU 124.0
5. Brandon Roy-POR 122.2
6. Ray Allen-BOS 122.2
7. Jameer Nelson-ORL 121.4
8. Nene Hilario-DEN 120.8
9. LeBron James-CLE 120.4
10. Chauncey Billups-TOT 120.1
11. Steve Blake-POR 119.1
12. Marvin Williams-ATL 118.8
13. Rudy Fernandez-POR 118.3
14. Andrew Bynum-LAL 118.1
15. Troy Murphy-IND 118.1
16. David Lee-NYK 117.4
17. Derek Fisher-LAL 117.1
18. Andris Biedrins-GSW 116.7
19. Kobe Bryant-LAL 116.5
20. Paul Millsap-UTA 115.8

Win Shares
1. LeBron James-CLE 12.3
2. Chris Paul-NOH 10.0
3. Dwight Howard-ORL 8.9
4. Pau Gasol-LAL 8.7
5. Kobe Bryant-LAL 8.7
6. Dwyane Wade-MIA 8.0
7. Ray Allen-BOS 8.0
8. Paul Pierce-BOS 7.8
9. Brandon Roy-POR 7.5
10. Tim Duncan-SAS 7.4
11. Kevin Garnett-BOS 7.0
12. Rajon Rondo-BOS 6.9
13. Nene Hilario-DEN 6.9
14. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 6.8
15. Chauncey Billups-TOT 6.7
16. Yao Ming-HOU 6.7
17. Rashard Lewis-ORL 6.7
18. Chris Bosh-TOR 6.5
19. Jameer Nelson-ORL 6.2
20. David Lee-NYK 6.2

[MitchellUK]

For those that are ridiculously knocking Nelson's skillz, this list is for you;
Edit, hell, let me add some more

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-CLE 31.8
2. Chris Paul-NOH 29.7
3. Dwyane Wade-MIA 28.1
4. Dwight Howard-ORL 25.4
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 25.3
6. Kobe Bryant-LAL 25.1
7. Brandon Roy-POR 24.0
8. Yao Ming-HOU 23.5
9. Al Jefferson-MIN 23.3
10. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 23.1
11. Devin Harris-NJN 22.7
12. Chris Bosh-TOR 22.4
13. Pau Gasol-LAL 22.0
14. Tony Parker-SAS 21.3
15. Shaquille O'Neal-PHO 21.3
16. Kevin Garnett-BOS 21.2
17. Danny Granger-IND 21.1
18. Jameer Nelson-ORL 20.9
19. Kevin Durant-OKC 20.8
20. Deron Williams-UTA 20.8

Effective Field Goal Pct
1. Nene Hilario-DEN .611
2. Shaquille O'Neal-PHO .584
3. Emeka Okafor-CHA .582
4. Ray Allen-BOS .582
5. Jameer Nelson-ORL .580
6. Troy Murphy-IND .571
7. Andris Biedrins-GSW .568
8. David Lee-NYK .564
9. Dwight Howard-ORL .564
10. Pau Gasol-LAL .561
11. Andrew Bynum-LAL .558
12. Paul Millsap-UTA .548
13. Grant Hill-PHO .548
14. Yao Ming-HOU .544
15. Rashard Lewis-ORL .544
16. Maurice Williams-CLE .539
17. Roger Mason-SAS .536
18. Mehmet Okur-UTA .535
19. Boris Diaw-TOT .534
Steve Nash-PHO .534

Offensive Rating
1. Pau Gasol-LAL 126.5
2. Chris Paul-NOH 124.3
3. Jose Calderon-TOR 124.1
4. Carl Landry-HOU 124.0
5. Brandon Roy-POR 122.2
6. Ray Allen-BOS 122.2
7. Jameer Nelson-ORL 121.4
8. Nene Hilario-DEN 120.8
9. LeBron James-CLE 120.4
10. Chauncey Billups-TOT 120.1
11. Steve Blake-POR 119.1
12. Marvin Williams-ATL 118.8
13. Rudy Fernandez-POR 118.3
14. Andrew Bynum-LAL 118.1
15. Troy Murphy-IND 118.1
16. David Lee-NYK 117.4
17. Derek Fisher-LAL 117.1
18. Andris Biedrins-GSW 116.7
19. Kobe Bryant-LAL 116.5
20. Paul Millsap-UTA 115.8

Win Shares
1. LeBron James-CLE 12.3
2. Chris Paul-NOH 10.0
3. Dwight Howard-ORL 8.9
4. Pau Gasol-LAL 8.7
5. Kobe Bryant-LAL 8.7
6. Dwyane Wade-MIA 8.0
7. Ray Allen-BOS 8.0
8. Paul Pierce-BOS 7.8
9. Brandon Roy-POR 7.5
10. Tim Duncan-SAS 7.4
11. Kevin Garnett-BOS 7.0
12. Rajon Rondo-BOS 6.9
13. Nene Hilario-DEN 6.9
14. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 6.8
15. Chauncey Billups-TOT 6.7
16. Yao Ming-HOU 6.7
17. Rashard Lewis-ORL 6.7
18. Chris Bosh-TOR 6.5
19. Jameer Nelson-ORL 6.2
20. David Lee-NYK 6.2

I don't think people were knocking Meer so much as feeling incredulous at the suggestion that he was more important to the Magic that Dwight. So with that in mind, I've taken the liberty of further highlighting in your post.

[N4U|Redux]

^ WTF does your highlighting prove exactly? It shows that Howard is higher than Nelson in two instances and that Nelson is higher than Howard in two instances.

Doesn't necessarily show that Howard > Nelson.

Not saying Nelson is better, just noting that your highlights don't show anything to disprove it. In fact, given that Howard is completely left off one of the lists, it shows that maybe Nelson is superior (the point you're arguing against).

[MitchellUK]

^ WTF does your highlighting prove exactly? It shows that Howard is higher than Nelson in two instances and that Nelson is higher than Howard in two instances.

Doesn't necessarily show that Howard > Nelson.

Not saying Nelson is better, just noting that your highlights don't show anything to disprove it. In fact, given that Howard is completely left off one of the lists, it shows that maybe Nelson is superior (the point you're arguing against).

I only highlighted D12 in the categories eyriq had listed - arguably the two most important categories of the 4. I could go back and find rebounding percentage, shot blocking numbers, etc., in which Dwight would also be at the top of the entire NBA and Meer wouldn't register. Then there is 82games numbers - Howard's net PER production is way higher than Meer's, as is his roland rating (http://www.82games.com/0809/0809ORL.HTM).

And I made my point in my previous post that the discussion was less 'anti-Meer' and more 'pro-Dwight'. I wasn't trying to discredit Nelson's achievement, just show that Dwight's contribution is arguably more important to this team.