How did Hinkie miss on Whiteside?

[Ericb5]

We originally signed Malcolm Thomas right at the start of the season.....would have preferred a look at Whiteside than the original look at Thomas. Whiteside's agent contacted every team in the league before the Heat signed him.

Well, you said second look, obviously with hindsight I would have preferred that as well, however if you told me not too long ago that Whiteside's agent had contacted the team (as I'm sure is the obligation of every agent) and we passed than I wouldn't have given a ****.

Yeah, now it looks obvious, but it wasn't obvious then.

How did the NBA overlook Robert Covington for so long too?

The point is that teams evaluate prospects and hope to find guys like Covington and Whiteside, but there is no sure way to distinguish between the diamonds and the turds. SOMETHING made these guys slip through the cracks.

Hinkie seems to be pretty good about finding guys, and you can't win them all.

[ckchen]

and Woodside was awful until literally a few weeks ago. Great story but come on

He was an MVP of a Chinese league. Averaged something like 26/14...I would have preferred the Sixers take a look at him rather than a second look at Malcolm Thomas.

People don't seem to understand that just about any NBA end of bench/D-league scrub can put up ridiculous number in the Chinese CBA. CBA stats are almost completely meaningless and the league is basically set up so that NBA former stars/washouts look amazing from a stat perspective. (BTW, another reason to take Mudiay's play in the CBA with a HUGE grain of salt).

[Sixerscan]

The same thing that every GM in the league was thinking: that Hassan Whiteside has never shown the mental fortitude, work ethic, and humility to succeed in the NBA. And I say every GM, because if the Heat had any inkling he would be able to do this, they wouldn't have signed him to a 1 year league minimum contract.

If the bar is set that Hinkie should find every diamond in the rough who isn't on a guaranteed contract, that's a pretty crazy bar to set.

I figured that the kid had to be a world class knucklehead to not get a chance from someone with his physical gifts.

If it was basically just a maturity/attitude kind of thing, and he is growing past it, then he is in for a mega contract because you simply cannot teach his physical abilities.

I love stories like this. Every GM whiffed on this kid, probably with good reason, and he somehow turned the ship around.

This is part of the thing that old timers talk about when they say analytics only tell part of the story. And as Dbodner pointed out if it was all about ability. I am sure someone would have had this guy sitting at the end of their bench learning the game on a minimum contract. There had to be maturity issues and all types of personality red flags. Or like I have said before the NBA is a copycat league. A guy comes out early can't stick with a few teams and boom he is labeled a bust and every other team, labels him a bust too.

You have to figure scouts/GM's reputation and jobs are on the line every season. So yeah the pressure is on to find a diamond in the rough but you don't want to endorse a guy that just takes up a roster spot and provides you with nothing when you need all the help you can get. So it's a tricky situation. The scout or whomever found Whiteside for the Heat will probably get a promotion and in a few years we will hear about him as an assistant in line for a head coaching position.....

The really ironic/funny thing would be to see how many scouts told their teams about Whiteside only to have the GM or someone with authority making decision say No not that guy.

But with all of that being said. I'm with the OP Hinkie and company should be publicly flogged for this one.

I'd actually argue that the incentive is the exact opposite. If I am a GM and you are a scout, and you never find players good enough to even recommend, the main thought I am going to have is "Well what am I paying this guy for if he can never find someone that can play?" Feel like the only way these scouts get recognized by their teams is by finding these diamonds in the rough. If you pick some guy to bring into camp, and they guy makes the team and becomes a good player, everyone forgets about the 20 you recommended that didn't get a second look.

It's certainly true in baseball. In many ways, sports analytics only came into prominence because it became clear scouts weren't nearly as good at identifying talent as they thought they were. So analytics was brought in to supplement the good scouts/replace the bad ones.

Anyway, Hassan has had pretty solid computer numbers when he's gotten on the court at every level, hasn't he? More that people thought he was a knucklehead.

[ryst]

maybe he was thinking about lunch

I am thinking about lunch right now , there is no way I can think of Whiteside at the same time I am thinking about lunch

[sixerfan5]

If Hinkie is the smartest guy in the room (which everyone claims that he is), he has to realize that his legacy will be measured by a few home runs that lead to prolonged success. Not a bunch of small hits which seems to be a his focus. Embiid may be a home run. Whiteside may or may not be. Because the Sixers have no veteran leadership, a borderline personality type like Whiteside with great skills may not be brought in for a look. However, players like Whiteside and Boogie Cousins can mature and become real professionals. Just one or 2 hits on players like that combined with good drafting and a few free agents and you're set. It just bugs me that Riley always seems to be finding a way to create a winner with risk taking and savvy.

[Ericb5]

If Hinkie is the smartest guy in the room (which everyone claims that he is), he has to realize that his legacy will be measured by a few home runs that lead to prolonged success. Not a bunch of small hits which seems to be a his focus. Embiid may be a home run. Whiteside may or may not be. Because the Sixers have no veteran leadership, a borderline personality type like Whiteside with great skills may not be brought in for a look. However, players like Whiteside and Boogie Cousins can mature and become real professionals. Just one or 2 hits on players like that combined with good drafting and a few free agents and you're set. It just bugs me that Riley always seems to be finding a way to create a winner with risk taking and savvy.

Small hits are not his focus. They are what he works for in between the swings for the fences.

He might as well play small ball instead of standing pat when there are no big moves available.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[ckchen]

If Hinkie is the smartest guy in the room (which everyone claims that he is), he has to realize that his legacy will be measured by a few home runs that lead to prolonged success. Not a bunch of small hits which seems to be a his focus. Embiid may be a home run. Whiteside may or may not be. Because the Sixers have no veteran leadership, a borderline personality type like Whiteside with great skills may not be brought in for a look. However, players like Whiteside and Boogie Cousins can mature and become real professionals. Just one or 2 hits on players like that combined with good drafting and a few free agents and you're set. It just bugs me that Riley always seems to be finding a way to create a winner with risk taking and savvy.

I'm sorry, but Hassan Whiteside wasn't some supreme superstar just waiting for someone to grab him. Has he been playing out of his mind? Yes. Has it beem for LESS than 10 games? Yes. We've seen this same exact thing with Jeremy Lin during Linsanity when someone due to the system, timing, injuries, etc. just plays out of their minds for a while - but then eventually reverts back to the mean. I would think that is much more likely than Whiteside suddenly become a triple double with blocks threat every night.

[ckchen]

If Hinkie is the smartest guy in the room (which everyone claims that he is), he has to realize that his legacy will be measured by a few home runs that lead to prolonged success. Not a bunch of small hits which seems to be a his focus. Embiid may be a home run. Whiteside may or may not be. Because the Sixers have no veteran leadership, a borderline personality type like Whiteside with great skills may not be brought in for a look. However, players like Whiteside and Boogie Cousins can mature and become real professionals. Just one or 2 hits on players like that combined with good drafting and a few free agents and you're set. It just bugs me that Riley always seems to be finding a way to create a winner with risk taking and savvy.

I'm sorry, but Hassan Whiteside wasn't some supreme superstar just waiting for someone to grab him. Has he been playing out of his mind? Yes. Has it beem for LESS than 10 games? Yes. We've seen this same exact thing with Jeremy Lin during Linsanity when someone due to the system, timing, injuries, etc. just plays out of their minds for a while - but then eventually reverts back to the mean. I would think that is much more likely than Whiteside suddenly become a triple double with blocks threat every night. Is he probably a decent player? Maybe, probably. But just like everyone was kicking themselves over missing out on Jeremy Lin two years ago, and no one gives it a second thought now - you can probably expect the same from Hassan Whiteside.

[CoreyGallagher]

If Hinkie is the smartest guy in the room (which everyone claims that he is), he has to realize that his legacy will be measured by a few home runs that lead to prolonged success. Not a bunch of small hits which seems to be a his focus. Embiid may be a home run. Whiteside may or may not be. Because the Sixers have no veteran leadership, a borderline personality type like Whiteside with great skills may not be brought in for a look. However, players like Whiteside and Boogie Cousins can mature and become real professionals. Just one or 2 hits on players like that combined with good drafting and a few free agents and you're set. It just bugs me that Riley always seems to be finding a way to create a winner with risk taking and savvy.

Man, your hindsight is spot on, it's as if you know what happened after it happened.

[Sixerscan]

Right, if this is so easy why don't you let us know who the next Hassan Whiteside is?

[Eyeamok]

I figured that the kid had to be a world class knucklehead to not get a chance from someone with his physical gifts.

If it was basically just a maturity/attitude kind of thing, and he is growing past it, then he is in for a mega contract because you simply cannot teach his physical abilities.

I love stories like this. Every GM whiffed on this kid, probably with good reason, and he somehow turned the ship around.

This is part of the thing that old timers talk about when they say analytics only tell part of the story. And as Dbodner pointed out if it was all about ability. I am sure someone would have had this guy sitting at the end of their bench learning the game on a minimum contract. There had to be maturity issues and all types of personality red flags. Or like I have said before the NBA is a copycat league. A guy comes out early can't stick with a few teams and boom he is labeled a bust and every other team, labels him a bust too.

You have to figure scouts/GM's reputation and jobs are on the line every season. So yeah the pressure is on to find a diamond in the rough but you don't want to endorse a guy that just takes up a roster spot and provides you with nothing when you need all the help you can get. So it's a tricky situation. The scout or whomever found Whiteside for the Heat will probably get a promotion and in a few years we will hear about him as an assistant in line for a head coaching position.....

The really ironic/funny thing would be to see how many scouts told their teams about Whiteside only to have the GM or someone with authority making decision say No not that guy.

But with all of that being said. I'm with the OP Hinkie and company should be publicly flogged for this one.

I'd actually argue that the incentive is the exact opposite. If I am a GM and you are a scout, and you never find players good enough to even recommend, the main thought I am going to have is "Well what am I paying this guy for if he can never find someone that can play?" Feel like the only way these scouts get recognized by their teams is by finding these diamonds in the rough. If you pick some guy to bring into camp, and they guy makes the team and becomes a good player, everyone forgets about the 20 you recommended that didn't get a second look.

It's certainly true in baseball. In many ways, sports analytics only came into prominence because it became clear scouts weren't nearly as good at identifying talent as they thought they were. So analytics was brought in to supplement the good scouts/replace the bad ones.

Anyway, Hassan has had pretty solid computer numbers when he's gotten on the court at every level, hasn't he? More that people thought he was a knucklehead.

As a scout you want to bring in and recommend good players...but when players have been passed over and have a label attached to them and everyone else has taken a pass on them it's hard to say no....this guy is the one....and yet that is basically the nature of the game. And out of all the 3 major sports, basketball has the smallest active roster of player spots available. I would think you would want to choose who you recommend very carefully.

Whiteside himself said when he heard back from teams the label on him was a head case. So that carried a lot of weight.

As stated in a previous post. It would be cool to see which scouts recommended Whiteside only to have their GM's take a pass on him. Even with the good numbers he had been putting up in the minor leagues. And on that note. His number in the Minor league have been great, his time in the major's not so great. There have been a lot of players that looked like killers and the next big thing in high school and college...but those numbers and their games just did not translate over to the NBA.

But good luck to the guy.

[sixerfan5]

Being a Sixer fan right now is really difficult as our team is being soundly beaten on a nightly basis. Our hopes for better days ahead involve trusting an unproven GM and coach to rebuild the franchise from scratch. I understand why I am getting a bunch of edgy and snarky responses to my post of Hinkie possibly missing on a rotational or possibly core big man. I have no problem with that.
If you really want to be honest about it, right now we have no idea if any of the players from the multitude of draft picks and other transactions HInkie has already made will be part of the future core members of a successful Sixer team. I choose to be optimistic that Hinkie and Brown will be successful. That doesn't mean that I believe that he doesn't miss on things and that I should have blind faith in his skills. It also doesn't mean that I shouldn't comment if I think that he is too conservative in his choices for D league call ups. Players like Thomas and Davies may be good teammates, but I would rather see higher ceiling players given a chance.

[Ericb5]

Being a Sixer fan right now is really difficult as our team is being soundly beaten on a nightly basis. Our hopes for better days ahead involve trusting an unproven GM and coach to rebuild the franchise from scratch. I understand why I am getting a bunch of edgy and snarky responses to my post of Hinkie possibly missing on a rotational or possibly core big man. I have no problem with that.
If you really want to be honest about it, right now we have no idea if any of the players from the multitude of draft picks and other transactions HInkie has already made will be part of the future core members of a successful Sixer team. I choose to be optimistic that Hinkie and Brown will be successful. That doesn't mean that I believe that he doesn't miss on things and that I should have blind faith in his skills. It also doesn't mean that I shouldn't comment if I think that he is too conservative in his choices for D league call ups. Players like Thomas and Davies may be good teammates, but I would rather see higher ceiling players given a chance.

Nobody is arguing that Hinkie is always right. He obviously missed Whiteside, but so did nearly everyone else. The point is that you can't win them all, and Hinkie has established, in his short time as our GM, that he is good at evaluating prospects.

Nothing is set in stone with any of the guys that he has brought in, but he has been successful so far.

[Wilfried]

Let's judge Whiteside in 2 seasons. He could become Larry Sanders, who also nodged a T-Double once.

The guy is also 26, his future is at present. I'm a bit sceptical about the guy.

He can become Larry Sanders, but some are acting that he's KG.

[Mr Sixer]

I am pretty upset about Hinkie missing on Whiteside. And I don't blame Hinkie at all for it, because expecting him to hit on every diamond in the rough is way too much to ask, but my expectations are high because he has literally impressed me on almost every move he has made, regardless of how big or small it is.

An example of this is the Thad trade, which is why this is really crushing me, because if Hinkie had managed to find him this pick would be looking a lot sweeter right now. I feel like he is going to single-handedly keep them from dropping to that 11-13 pick, which it looked like they were headed for before with their poor play and Detroit and Charlotte's emergence. Oh well, it happens, obviously can't expect Hinkie to do everything perfectly right every time or youre setting yourself up for a big disappointment.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

I thought Langston Galloway was the guy we should of been looking at...Never once even thought about Whiteside becoming a factor in the league. I thought he was a fringe NBA player at best...Glad both are doing well.

[Eyeamok]

Maybe this it a topic for another thread. But the Covington's and the Whiteside's of the world have me thinking. With the new TV contract and the amount of money available to pay players. Could a team make a true investment in a D_league franchise. When I say true investment. You find promising players and pay them say $150,000 for a full season. And make a farm team out of your D_league team. Where all the players now have time to just work on and develop their game. That is their job. $150,000 should be able to take care of their living expenses. So now all they have to focus on is basketball. Hire a real development team of coaches and get to work. It's quite possible that more diamonds in the rough could be unearthed. Or at the very least players will be more prepared and able to make a contribution if they are called up. Or am I just way off base with this? I know there would probably be some blow back from the NCAA...but that is another thing all together.

I read a report where the players in the D_league made between $25,000, $19,000, and $13,000.

[Sixerscan]

Maybe this it a topic for another thread. But the Covington's and the Whiteside's of the world have me thinking. With the new TV contract and the amount of money available to pay players. Could a team make a true investment in a D_league franchise. When I say true investment. You find promising players and pay them say $150,000 for a full season. And make a farm team out of your D_league team. Where all the players now have time to just work on and develop their game. That is their job. $150,000 should be able to take care of their living expenses. So now all they have to focus on is basketball. Hire a real development team of coaches and get to work. It's quite possible that more diamonds in the rough could be unearthed. Or at the very least players will be more prepared and able to make a contribution if they are called up. Or am I just way off base with this? I know there would probably be some blow back from the NCAA...but that is another thing all together.

I read a report where the players in the D_league made between $25,000, $19,000, and $13,000.

The problem there is that those salaries are limited by the D League's bylaws. A D League team can't pay Robert Covington $150K anymore than an NBA team can pay LeBron $100 million.

There's also the issue that you don't have the NBA rights to any players in the D League unless they are under an NBA contract/on your 15 man roster. Or you drafted them and never signed them to a contract (Even then they aren't bound to your D League team). So for the most part, it wouldn't be worth it to invest all that money anyway in a player, since they could just sign with/get drafted by another team.

Until those two rules change, I doubt you'll see anything like that in the D League. Because even if one team wants to do something like this, they still need to get votes from the other owners to change the rules and structure of the D League.

As of right now, the NBA as a whole thinks it makes more sense to just let other people (College, Europe, with some D Leaguers) develop the NBA players of tomorrow, since the NBA doesn't have to pay for it.

[Eyeamok]

Maybe this it a topic for another thread. But the Covington's and the Whiteside's of the world have me thinking. With the new TV contract and the amount of money available to pay players. Could a team make a true investment in a D_league franchise. When I say true investment. You find promising players and pay them say $150,000 for a full season. And make a farm team out of your D_league team. Where all the players now have time to just work on and develop their game. That is their job. $150,000 should be able to take care of their living expenses. So now all they have to focus on is basketball. Hire a real development team of coaches and get to work. It's quite possible that more diamonds in the rough could be unearthed. Or at the very least players will be more prepared and able to make a contribution if they are called up. Or am I just way off base with this? I know there would probably be some blow back from the NCAA...but that is another thing all together.

I read a report where the players in the D_league made between $25,000, $19,000, and $13,000.

The problem there is that those salaries are limited by the D League's bylaws. A D League team can't pay Robert Covington $150K anymore than an NBA team can pay LeBron $100 million.

There's also the issue that you don't have the NBA rights to any players in the D League unless they are under an NBA contract/on your 15 man roster. Or you drafted them and never signed them to a contract (Even then they aren't bound to your D League team). So for the most part, it wouldn't be worth it to invest all that money anyway in a player, since they could just sign with/get drafted by another team.

Until those two rules change, I doubt you'll see anything like that in the D League. Because even if one team wants to do something like this, they still need to get votes from the other owners to change the rules and structure of the D League.

As of right now, the NBA as a whole thinks it makes more sense to just let other people (College, Europe, with some D Leaguers) develop the NBA players of tomorrow, since the NBA doesn't have to pay for it.

Thanks for the response. Makes things pretty clear. This is one area though that I think the NBA should be looking to change things up. The money is there now more than ever. Say your new development D_league team costs you 2-5 million a year to run. With the new TV contract it seems like a drop in the bucket too me, for an investment that could pay big dividends.

[Mik317]

The NBA needs to use the DLeague like a true minor league system so there isn't a stigma for playing there