Welcome Okafor: Thread 2

[spikeslovechild]

I have a very simple question for all those who want Okafor gone. Where do you want his usage to go to? You guys talk about Okafor being a throw back player but what is your solution?

Saying teams like the GSW and CLE won without dominant big man is correct but Steph Curry and Lebron ain't walking through that door. Where is his touches supposed to go to? Henderson? Bayless? Or the pennies on the dollar you want in return for him like Bradley?

Give me the plan. Beyond not wanting Noel traded....

The problem is Okafor is a meh off ball player.

We don't know if that's entirely true. From what he showed last year you're correct. He's been the focal point of the offense his entire basketball life. The ball always was fed to him. The days of him being the focal point of the offense are gone with the addition of Simmons and Embiid. Okafor will have to learn to move without the ball to get in scoring position. Maybe he can't do that but the reality is he never really had to do it before. Maybe he can do that. We will have to see.

But are we talking hypotheticals or reality? Right now, he's meh off ball player. That can change (as his defense rebounding and blah blah blah) but I'm going from what I saw so far.

I'm not sure what the poster is even suggesting. When ISh came Okafor still managed to get his touches and his efficiency went through the roof.

It's all about getting the ball to Okafor when he is actually in position to score. As opposed to last year when we gave the ball to Okafor and asked for him to create opportunities to score for himself away from the basket.

[Ericb5]

And the Okafor at the 4 continues... Ffs

He can ONLY play the 4 if he stays with us so it is the only position worth talking about.

[lotto29]

And the Okafor at the 4 continues... Ffs

He can ONLY play the 4 if he stays with us so it is the only position worth talking about.

No. He can't play the 4,he most likely won't play the 4 and if he stays, that means Noel is gone and minutes at the 5 open up. He's horrid at the 4 and only slightly manageable at the 5. He will be a starter for the beginning and then he goes to the bench, if he stays. He won't be a starter at 4 for the whole season and if you're suggesting that, you're absolutely out of your mind.

[Ericb5]

And the Okafor at the 4 continues... Ffs

He can ONLY play the 4 if he stays with us so it is the only position worth talking about.

No. He can't play the 4,he most likely won't play the 4 and if he stays, that means Noel is gone and minutes at the 5 open up. He's horrid at the 4 and only slightly manageable at the 5. He will be a starter for the beginning and then he goes to the bench, if he stays. He won't be a starter at 4 for the whole season and if you're suggesting that, you're absolutely out of your mind.

In the healthy Embiid scenario, Okafor can ONLY stay a Sixer if he can start at the 4. That is precisely why I am pessimistic long term about his fit on the Sixers. For this up coming season, assuming that we trade Noel, and Embiid plays guarded minutes, then sure Okafor can play 30 minutes a night at the 5, but those minutes won't be available 2 years from now if Embiid is healthy.

Okafor playing the 4 is an iffy proposition, but it isn't an impossibility like him playing the 1, 2, or 3. He deserves a chance to show if he can do it. Even if he CAN do it, he may need to be traded eventually simply because of Simmons and Saric potentially being more effective there.

[lotto29]

He can ONLY play the 4 if he stays with us so it is the only position worth talking about.

No. He can't play the 4,he most likely won't play the 4 and if he stays, that means Noel is gone and minutes at the 5 open up. He's horrid at the 4 and only slightly manageable at the 5. He will be a starter for the beginning and then he goes to the bench, if he stays. He won't be a starter at 4 for the whole season and if you're suggesting that, you're absolutely out of your mind.

In the healthy Embiid scenario, Okafor can ONLY stay a Sixer if he can start at the 4. That is precisely why I am pessimistic long term about his fit on the Sixers. For this up coming season, assuming that we trade Noel, and Embiid plays guarded minutes, then sure Okafor can play 30 minutes a night at the 5, but those minutes won't be available 2 years from now if Embiid is healthy.

Okafor playing the 4 is an iffy proposition, but it isn't an impossibility like him playing the 1, 2, or 3. He deserves a chance to show if he can do it. Even if he CAN do it, he may need to be traded eventually simply because of Simmons and Saric potentially being more effective there.

For his sake then, trade him. His talents don't merit a team going through that. If Embiid is healthy, goodbye Okafor and good riddance. You're attached to the **** hip with him. God, rationalize a bit.

[76ciology]

And the Okafor at the 4 continues... Ffs

He can ONLY play the 4 if he stays with us so it is the only position worth talking about.

No. He can't play the 4,he most likely won't play the 4 and if he stays, that means Noel is gone and minutes at the 5 open up. He's horrid at the 4 and only slightly manageable at the 5. He will be a starter for the beginning and then he goes to the bench, if he stays. He won't be a starter at 4 for the whole season and if you're suggesting that, you're absolutely out of your mind.

I know your preference for Okafor. But between Jah being a goalie around the rim and Jah's individual defense at PF, which would you prefer? Honestly, I thought his individual defense at PF was good, most of the lapses are due to cross matches on transition defense.

[Ericb5]

No. He can't play the 4,he most likely won't play the 4 and if he stays, that means Noel is gone and minutes at the 5 open up. He's horrid at the 4 and only slightly manageable at the 5. He will be a starter for the beginning and then he goes to the bench, if he stays. He won't be a starter at 4 for the whole season and if you're suggesting that, you're absolutely out of your mind.

In the healthy Embiid scenario, Okafor can ONLY stay a Sixer if he can start at the 4. That is precisely why I am pessimistic long term about his fit on the Sixers. For this up coming season, assuming that we trade Noel, and Embiid plays guarded minutes, then sure Okafor can play 30 minutes a night at the 5, but those minutes won't be available 2 years from now if Embiid is healthy.

Okafor playing the 4 is an iffy proposition, but it isn't an impossibility like him playing the 1, 2, or 3. He deserves a chance to show if he can do it. Even if he CAN do it, he may need to be traded eventually simply because of Simmons and Saric potentially being more effective there.

For his sake then, trade him. His talents don't merit a team going through that. If Embiid is healthy, goodbye Okafor and good riddance. You're attached to the **** hip with him. God, rationalize a bit.

I don't understand how you can say that I am attached to the hip of a guy that I am saying will probably need to be traded eventually.

The point is that we have time to figure it out with him, and we still need to give Embiid time. Plus the value doesn't seem to be there in the market right now. If the value was there then I would trade him. For example, I wasn't going to trade him for the 3rd or 4th pick straight up, but if we could have gotten 3 and Smart, or 4, and Knight, then I would do it. We weren't able to do that, so we should keep our powder dry.

The equation for my current thinking goes like this:

(The downside of underselling him) > (The downside of him withering on the team due to lack of playing time)

If the equation changes in a year or two then maybe we have to do something.

[76ciology]

Who wouldn't want Anthony Davis instead of Okafor?

Jah and Towns both make their team worse by around 3 points per 100 possession and by .5-1% on their team's DFG%. Bottom line, with or without them, the team they play for are bad defensive teams.

Most can't see eye to eye, but this is what we have. Best we can do is be realistic to know their limitations but at the same time consider their upside and tools to be better players. For now, it's more likely that Jah evolves and defends like LaMarcus Aldridge at the PF position than Rudy Gobert at the C position.

If you look around the league, most of the trade options you have right now are terrible.
Marcus Smart?
Terry Rozier?
McDermott?

Might as well try our luck with some undrafted player(s). The next opportunity is at the summer of 2017, which I posted at the other thread.

Yeah, it's such a slow offseason nothing to talk about but past issues that has been repeating over and over again.

Why not talk about how Embiid could be that spacer+rim protector like Ibaka or how Simmons could be that Kawhi type wing who can provide some rim protection at wing position that every big like Jah need?

Who knows, Jah could be that high volume+diverse scorer that would compliment Simmons & Embiid.

Maybe playing big is the way to counter small ball instead of trying to match GSW's firepower that should start with Simmons being a great shooter+high volume scorer.

In the end, it's about putting your most talented guys on the floor and implementing a scheme to hide their weakness and maximize their strength. That is how small ball started. Maybe we can set a new trend.

You got to be creative if you want to beat the Warriors. Just look around the league and see how impossible it is to build a smallball team w/ same star power despite all our assets. Last thing you want is to dilute the value of our assets.

[lotto29]

He can ONLY play the 4 if he stays with us so it is the only position worth talking about.

No. He can't play the 4,he most likely won't play the 4 and if he stays, that means Noel is gone and minutes at the 5 open up. He's horrid at the 4 and only slightly manageable at the 5. He will be a starter for the beginning and then he goes to the bench, if he stays. He won't be a starter at 4 for the whole season and if you're suggesting that, you're absolutely out of your mind.

I know your preference for Okafor. But between Jah being a goalie around the rim and Jah's individual defense at PF, which would you prefer? Honestly, I thought his individual defense at PF was good, most of the lapses are due to cross matches on transition defense.

It might surprise you what I think of Okafor in a vacuum.

So to what you ask. In terms of upside, I want Okafor near the rim. I think his best defensive upside is still there if a coach can bring his awareness, effort and positioning to decent level, his size will take care of the rest. In terms of the lesser of 2 evils, I still think him near the rim is slightly slightly better. I said this taking into consideration teams will start to take advantage him there when the game is close. With him at 4,especially now, is very easy to run him out of the court. Either running him through sets or driving right pass him. As for with him at center, the biggest problem is PnR (which is huge). So for him, it comes down to what you trust he will surpass better. The physical limitations (him at 4) or the mental ones (him at 5). I prefer to put my chips, reluctantly, one the mental aspect. Now that's the defensive aspect. How about the offense? Who is going to play the PF (the common role of one)? Embiid? I don't want to do that to him so that we can fit Okafor. I think we all agree that Okafor is the most effective at the 5 and well, he's only played there so far. Not even to mention the rest of the team and the system that you should implement. You want to run if you have Simmons. You want to live in transition. Putting Okafor through that with his known limitations is a killer. If he's going from end to end, you will only see him coming if you had to stop for some reason. There's where he usually scores those trailing buckets.

I think he can be a offensive focus on a great team. I think if you want and he commits, you can build a nice team around him. But that's the issue, he makes you be specific in the way you should play if he's on the roster. And with our roster, I just think he's a bad fit. And I ultimately think his talents don't merit us not maximizing other players we have in the roster.

[LloydFree]

And the Okafor at the 4 continues... Ffs

He can ONLY play the 4 if he stays with us so it is the only position worth talking about.

No. He can't play the 4,he most likely won't play the 4 and if he stays, that means Noel is gone and minutes at the 5 open up. He's horrid at the 4 and only slightly manageable at the 5. He will be a starter for the beginning and then he goes to the bench, if he stays. He won't be a starter at 4 for the whole season and if you're suggesting that, you're absolutely out of your mind.

This. But it's not worth arguing. The concept of defense is befuddling to some.

[lotto29]

In the healthy Embiid scenario, Okafor can ONLY stay a Sixer if he can start at the 4. That is precisely why I am pessimistic long term about his fit on the Sixers. For this up coming season, assuming that we trade Noel, and Embiid plays guarded minutes, then sure Okafor can play 30 minutes a night at the 5, but those minutes won't be available 2 years from now if Embiid is healthy.

Okafor playing the 4 is an iffy proposition, but it isn't an impossibility like him playing the 1, 2, or 3. He deserves a chance to show if he can do it. Even if he CAN do it, he may need to be traded eventually simply because of Simmons and Saric potentially being more effective there.

For his sake then, trade him. His talents don't merit a team going through that. If Embiid is healthy, goodbye Okafor and good riddance. You're attached to the **** hip with him. God, rationalize a bit.

I don't understand how you can say that I am attached to the hip of a guy that I am saying will probably need to be traded eventually.

The point is that we have time to figure it out with him, and we still need to give Embiid time. Plus the value doesn't seem to be there in the market right now. If the value was there then I would trade him. For example, I wasn't going to trade him for the 3rd or 4th pick straight up, but if we could have gotten 3 and Smart, or 4, and Knight, then I would do it. We weren't able to do that, so we should keep our powder dry.

The equation for my current thinking goes like this:

(The downside of underselling him) > (The downside of him withering on the team due to lack of playing time)

If the equation changes in a year or two then maybe we have to do something.

I said that because you insist on trying to fit a square on a circle. I say this both in terms of him personally and the team. That argument isn't important to what we are trying to discuss. We are talking about fit and how he could play within our roster. That comes later. You are putting him as an asset first rather than a player in this. You have to start to think on how much make this team progress now. If that involves playing as a starter at the 5,sure. If he needs to move to the bench, that's fine. You make it work minutes wise. Never fit wise, because that's eventually what kills value more than minutes. You can argue a player with less minutes but is playing very well. But one that is playing more but plays worse is actually worse than the former.

[lotto29]

Who wouldn't want Anthony Davis instead of Okafor?

Jah and Towns both make their team worse by around 3 points per 100 possession and by .5-1% on their team's DFG%. Bottom line, with or without them, the team they play for are bad defensive teams.

Most can't see eye to eye, but this is what we have. Best we can do is be realistic to know their limitations but at the same time consider their upside and tools to be better players. For now, it's more likely that Jah evolves and defends like LaMarcus Aldridge at the PF position than Rudy Gobert at the C position.

If you look around the league, most of the trade options you have right now are terrible.
Marcus Smart?
Terry Rozier?
McDermott?

Might as well try our luck with some undrafted player(s). The next opportunity is at the summer of 2017, which I posted at the other thread.

Yeah, it's such a slow offseason nothing to talk about but past issues that has been repeating over and over again.

Why not talk about how Embiid could be that spacer+rim protector like Ibaka or how Simmons could be that Kawhi type wing who can provide some rim protection at wing position that every big like Jah need?

Who knows, Jah could be that high volume+diverse scorer that would compliment Simmons & Embiid.

Maybe playing big is the way to counter small ball instead of trying to match GSW's firepower that should start with Simmons being a great shooter+high volume scorer.

In the end, it's about putting your most talented guys on the floor and implementing a scheme to hide their weakness and maximize their strength. That is how small ball started. Maybe we can set a new trend.

So that's it. You want use Embiid as a floor spacer just to try fitting Okafor? We have a conundrum here. You kill either guy impact by trying to appeal to the other. Not to mention the other guys. How is Okafor going to survive the constant running of a transition team? You won't be one? Now that's a another conundrum there because you are now hurting Simmons impact.

[76ciology]

Who wouldn't want Anthony Davis instead of Okafor?

Jah and Towns both make their team worse by around 3 points per 100 possession and by .5-1% on their team's DFG%. Bottom line, with or without them, the team they play for are bad defensive teams.

Most can't see eye to eye, but this is what we have. Best we can do is be realistic to know their limitations but at the same time consider their upside and tools to be better players. For now, it's more likely that Jah evolves and defends like LaMarcus Aldridge at the PF position than Rudy Gobert at the C position.

If you look around the league, most of the trade options you have right now are terrible.
Marcus Smart?
Terry Rozier?
McDermott?

Might as well try our luck with some undrafted player(s). The next opportunity is at the summer of 2017, which I posted at the other thread.

Yeah, it's such a slow offseason nothing to talk about but past issues that has been repeating over and over again.

Why not talk about how Embiid could be that spacer+rim protector like Ibaka or how Simmons could be that Kawhi type wing who can provide some rim protection at wing position that every big like Jah need?

Who knows, Jah could be that high volume+diverse scorer that would compliment Simmons & Embiid.

Maybe playing big is the way to counter small ball instead of trying to match GSW's firepower that should start with Simmons being a great shooter+high volume scorer.

In the end, it's about putting your most talented guys on the floor and implementing a scheme to hide their weakness and maximize their strength. That is how small ball started. Maybe we can set a new trend.

So that's it. You want use Embiid as a floor spacer just to try fitting Okafor? We have a conundrum here. You kill either guy impact by trying to appeal to the other. Not to mention the other guys. How is Okafor going to survive the constant running of a transition team? You won't be one? Now that's a another conundrum there because you are now hurting Simmons impact.

First off, I don't favor post offense.

For me post offense should be your team's last option. I see Embiid as a offensive player similar to Towns or Anthony Davis with a lot of assisted baskets off drives and jumpers than a heavy post player like Okafor. While i do project Okafor to eventually play like DMC on offense, who for me is the best model for a scoring center. So I don't expect both guys to be heavy post players but be balanced scorers off jumpers, drives and post.

On halfcourt, I envision us running a Simmons/Embiid PnR, with Jah as a spacer(uptrend shooter). If that us denied, then we set Jah at the post against smaller PF then have Embiid as a spacer.

With Simmons, I think Jah compliments him being a good finisher around the rim and also diverse high volume scorer on halfcourt to relive pressure on Simmons to be a volume scorer. There were a number of times when Jah has shown ability to be a good transition player, some times he has even shown the ability to bring down the ball coast to coast like a wing Raps, Celtics, Bucks, Nets and Knicks games are the games I recall. Simmons allow us to play big and also has good volume of transition points.

Overall, my idea is to have a team that is big, mobile and very talented. Switch every screens on defense and turn the game into a iso/post game if they also do the same. Similar to how Cavs neutralize the Warriors screen play.

[Ericb5]

For his sake then, trade him. His talents don't merit a team going through that. If Embiid is healthy, goodbye Okafor and good riddance. You're attached to the **** hip with him. God, rationalize a bit.

I don't understand how you can say that I am attached to the hip of a guy that I am saying will probably need to be traded eventually.

The point is that we have time to figure it out with him, and we still need to give Embiid time. Plus the value doesn't seem to be there in the market right now. If the value was there then I would trade him. For example, I wasn't going to trade him for the 3rd or 4th pick straight up, but if we could have gotten 3 and Smart, or 4, and Knight, then I would do it. We weren't able to do that, so we should keep our powder dry.

The equation for my current thinking goes like this:

(The downside of underselling him) > (The downside of him withering on the team due to lack of playing time)

If the equation changes in a year or two then maybe we have to do something.

I said that because you insist on trying to fit a square on a circle. I say this both in terms of him personally and the team. That argument isn't important to what we are trying to discuss. We are talking about fit and how he could play within our roster. That comes later. You are putting him as an asset first rather than a player in this. You have to start to think on how much make this team progress now. If that involves playing as a starter at the 5,sure. If he needs to move to the bench, that's fine. You make it work minutes wise. Never fit wise, because that's eventually what kills value more than minutes. You can argue a player with less minutes but is playing very well. But one that is playing more but plays worse is actually worse than the former.

I agree that he is an asset at this point, and not a player. He is a 20 year old guy with 50 some games played in the league. My feeling is that this is true of the whole team outside of Simmons, and Embiid. I don't want to undersell the asset because I believe that he has significant upside. I also believe, that while the odds are against him, that it isn't a lost cause for him to live on the Sixers long term at the 4. Let's reevaluate his ability to do that next summer, and if we need to trade him then, even if we don't get true value in return, then we can do it.

[lotto29]

I don't understand how you can say that I am attached to the hip of a guy that I am saying will probably need to be traded eventually.

The point is that we have time to figure it out with him, and we still need to give Embiid time. Plus the value doesn't seem to be there in the market right now. If the value was there then I would trade him. For example, I wasn't going to trade him for the 3rd or 4th pick straight up, but if we could have gotten 3 and Smart, or 4, and Knight, then I would do it. We weren't able to do that, so we should keep our powder dry.

The equation for my current thinking goes like this:

(The downside of underselling him) > (The downside of him withering on the team due to lack of playing time)

If the equation changes in a year or two then maybe we have to do something.

I said that because you insist on trying to fit a square on a circle. I say this both in terms of him personally and the team. That argument isn't important to what we are trying to discuss. We are talking about fit and how he could play within our roster. That comes later. You are putting him as an asset first rather than a player in this. You have to start to think on how much make this team progress now. If that involves playing as a starter at the 5,sure. If he needs to move to the bench, that's fine. You make it work minutes wise. Never fit wise, because that's eventually what kills value more than minutes. You can argue a player with less minutes but is playing very well. But one that is playing more but plays worse is actually worse than the former.

I agree that he is an asset at this point, and not a player. He is a 20 year old guy with 50 some games played in the league. My feeling is that this is true of the whole team outside of Simmons, and Embiid. I don't want to undersell the asset because I believe that he has significant upside. I also believe, that while the odds are against him, that it isn't a lost cause for him to live on the Sixers long term at the 4. Let's reevaluate his ability to do that next summer, and if we need to trade him then, even if we don't get true value in return, then we can do it.

It was that sort of thinking that lead to him undervalue so much in one season. If you think some jump on value is going to happen by sticking him at the 4,you're waiting for a miracle. That's not logical, that's being hopeful. If you say, let's give him less minutes but put in a position to succeed, I'm with you.

[ET Da Gawd]

It's literally the same argument since April, "Jah can't guard 4s"....but what 4s can guard Jah?? Him & Embiid will be a new age Duncan/Robinson

[mksp]

It's literally the same argument since April, "Jah can't guard 4s"....but what 4s can guard Jah?? Him & Embiid will be a new age Duncan/Robinson

You're going to be so disappointed in a couple months.

[lotto29]

It's literally the same argument since April, "Jah can't guard 4s"....but what 4s can guard Jah?? Him & Embiid will be a new age Duncan/Robinson

You're going to be so disappointed in a couple months.

Just don't take him serious. Everything he says is utter

[Ericb5]

I said that because you insist on trying to fit a square on a circle. I say this both in terms of him personally and the team. That argument isn't important to what we are trying to discuss. We are talking about fit and how he could play within our roster. That comes later. You are putting him as an asset first rather than a player in this. You have to start to think on how much make this team progress now. If that involves playing as a starter at the 5,sure. If he needs to move to the bench, that's fine. You make it work minutes wise. Never fit wise, because that's eventually what kills value more than minutes. You can argue a player with less minutes but is playing very well. But one that is playing more but plays worse is actually worse than the former.

I agree that he is an asset at this point, and not a player. He is a 20 year old guy with 50 some games played in the league. My feeling is that this is true of the whole team outside of Simmons, and Embiid. I don't want to undersell the asset because I believe that he has significant upside. I also believe, that while the odds are against him, that it isn't a lost cause for him to live on the Sixers long term at the 4. Let's reevaluate his ability to do that next summer, and if we need to trade him then, even if we don't get true value in return, then we can do it.

It was that sort of thinking that lead to him undervalue so much in one season. If you think some jump on value is going to happen by sticking him at the 4,you're waiting for a miracle. That's not logical, that's being hopeful. If you say, let's give him less minutes but put in a position to succeed, I'm with you.

I don't think that there will BE fewer minutes for him this year. Embiid will be ramping up his minutes, and is a major question, and Noel would be traded most likely so I think that he could conceivably have the same amount of minutes at the 5 this year if that is what we end up needing to do. We can give him the opportunity to basically audition for the 4 spot long term. The main driver of him not working well there this past year was his partnership with Noel.

[Ericb5]

It's literally the same argument since April, "Jah can't guard 4s"....but what 4s can guard Jah?? Him & Embiid will be a new age Duncan/Robinson

You're going to be so disappointed in a couple months.

Just don't take him serious. Everything he says is utter

BTW, Et Da Gawd is more strident in his belief than I am, but I think that the naysayers have totally discounted Okafor's ability to play the 4 before he has really tried it. It is certainly POSSIBLE that the advantages of him playing there will outweigh the disadvantages. I think that we should all be open to that possibility.

The argument of "which 4's are going to defend Okafor?" is not without merit.