Official Tottenham Hotspur Thread II

[Baphomet]

We reached 100 pages on the first thread, so here we go.

Lots of discuss at the moment. We're back in the Champions League, and have made some smart signings to start out the 2022 summer window. Here's hoping we can actually win something, eh?

Wall of shame from the previous thread:

and1GS (613)
Baphomet (567)
BUCKnation (200)
Ted Lasso (160)
cgf (49)
Elden Payton (44)
J-Mezzy (42)
Massimo (26)
5DOM (25)
HIF (23)
DD12 (17)
Foye (16)
GMgoran (16)
No_20 (15)
Slava (13)
ROballer (11)
IronChef (10)
Jadoogar (9)
Boognish (9)
SunKing (9)

[Baphomet]

I've got a feeling he's going to be a bit of a cult hero at Spurs. He's **** housing already.

[Baphomet]

Will he take Kulusevski's place in the starting lineup or be a bench player?

Basically what HIF said. Spurs will be playing a lot of games this season, and Richarlison can cover for all three front positions and will get plenty of game time. Will most likely start in the cups, and occasionally in the league. I suppose in theory, it's supposed to emulate Liverpool and City's forward strength in depth, where you have quality players like Sterling, Jesus, Jota, etc. rotating seamlessly into the starting line-up when and where they're required.

[Baseline81]

Basically what HIF said. Spurs will be playing a lot of games this season, and Richarlison can cover for all three front positions and will get plenty of game time. Will most likely start in the cups, and occasionally in the league. I suppose in theory, it's supposed to emulate Liverpool and City's forward strength in depth, where you have quality players like Sterling, Jesus, Jota, etc. rotating seamlessly into the starting line-up when and where they're required.

Yes, Jota can cover the left wing and forward positions, but Liverpool fans know he is not a starter. Granted, he did not cost the amount Tottenham have on Richarlson.

[Baphomet]

Looks like we'll get to see a little Pape Sarr and Bryan Gil in the preseason, which is nice.

Bit of a sloppy game against the Korean League XI, but it was an exhibition game so it's hard to take too many positives or negatives from it.

[Baphomet]

So, going into the international break, I wanted to make a post chronicling where we're at so far this season, and maybe look at some of Conte's tactics and where they are and aren't working.

With Conte's standard 3-4-3, the goal during the defensive phase seems to be for one of the back three or DMs to step up and win the ball, then fizz the ball in to the forwards' feet quickly and bypass the midfield entirely with a quick pass and move, allowing the wing backs to push up and supplement the attack with crosses and runs in behind. This is a pretty standard counter attacking model that has worked for Conte at Juventus, Chelsea and Inter. At times, it works for us too, but I think teams have figured out the best way to play against this tactic is to simply pack the midfield.

The pattern I'm seeing in Spurs' play this season is that, when the midfielders and centre-backs push up to the man on the ball, we leave gaps in the channels between the CB and WB and some teams have been able to exploit that. Not only that, but we aren't able to maintain possession because teams simply outnumber us in midfield, and it's a real struggle to get the ball to the forwards. When we are able to fizz the ball into feet, the strikers struggle to hold on to it or attempt speculative flicks forward. We either end up recycling the ball back to the CBs because there are no obvious forward passes, or launching it up the pitch hoping Kane can bring it down and do something with it, or Son, Kulu or Richie can run in behind. Most of the time we just end up losing the ball. Repeat.

Conte is definitely aware of this. He knows that it can take a long time for players to adapt to a new style of play, and he mentioned that specifically when asked why some of our new signings weren't starting.

Which brings me to the 3-5-2, which I think our personnel look much more adept in. After about 70 minutes in the Leicester game, we made substitutions and swapped to a 3-5-2 and saw an immediate difference in midfield/ball retention when we changed to a Hojbjerg, Bissouma and Bentancur trio, with Son and Kane both playing as strikers. We've also used this shape in games against Liverpool at Anfield last season, and a few others. It allows Bentancur and Hojbjerg to do what they're best at, which is winning the ball and driving it forwards. I think one of the reasons that Conte hasn't used this much outside of late tactical changes, is because it leaves us light in midfield depth. We would have to place a lot of trust in inexperienced Pape Sarr and injury riddled Oliver Skipp as the only backups. It's also going to be very ineffective against teams that play in a low block.

The football doesn't really pass the eye test, but when I looked closely at the stats of each Spurs game, there's a slightly different story emerging. Despite seemingly being on the back foot in most games, our xG (expected goals) is still often superior to the opposition. Granted, that's expected for a team that plays on the break, but we also average higher xG values for each individual chance we create. We have been efficient at taking those chances, too, largely thanks to our outstanding quality at that end of the pitch. At the other end, we allow a lot of attempts (3rd most in the Premier League), but they're not typically good quality chances and it's obvious that we're allowing teams space in certain areas of the pitch by design. Most of those attempts have been outside of the box. That's all good, but better teams will be able to punish this.

I think what's encouraging to me is that there's still clearly plenty of room to grow into this season, despite the good results and unbeaten run. We will get better on the ball, the new players will adapt to the tactics, Son's performances will improve, and we won't allow so many chances. We clearly aren't as good as Man City, and Arsenal have started the season very well, but I know this team's potential is sky high despite the incohesive football we've shown so far. Conte's style of football has been divisive in the fanbase and press, but there's something precise and analytical about his approach that gives me a lot of confidence going forward.

[Baphomet]

With Gareth Bale retiring, one of the most unstoppable players to ever put on the club's shirt, just wanted to reminisce on his unbelievable 2012/13 season that concreted his position as the most expensive player in the world at the time.

Watch on YouTube

It's a shame we couldn't hold on to him and Modric for a bit longer, especially if Kane had still emerged within the next 2 years as he did, we almost certainly would have won something. Still, I don't begrudge the two of them for wanting to move to Real, where they would go on to win everything and become legends.

[SgtPepper]

So, going into the international break, I wanted to make a post chronicling where we're at so far this season, and maybe look at some of Conte's tactics and where they are and aren't working.

With Conte's standard 3-4-3, the goal during the defensive phase seems to be for one of the back three or DMs to step up and win the ball, then fizz the ball in to the forwards' feet quickly and bypass the midfield entirely with a quick pass and move, allowing the wing backs to push up and supplement the attack with crosses and runs in behind. This is a pretty standard counter attacking model that has worked for Conte at Juventus, Chelsea and Inter. At times, it works for us too, but I think teams have figured out the best way to play against this tactic is to simply pack the midfield.

The pattern I'm seeing in Spurs' play this season is that, when the midfielders and centre-backs push up to the man on the ball, we leave gaps in the channels between the CB and WB and some teams have been able to exploit that. Not only that, but we aren't able to maintain possession because teams simply outnumber us in midfield, and it's a real struggle to get the ball to the forwards. When we are able to fizz the ball into feet, the strikers struggle to hold on to it or attempt speculative flicks forward. We either end up recycling the ball back to the CBs because there are no obvious forward passes, or launching it up the pitch hoping Kane can bring it down and do something with it, or Son, Kulu or Richie can run in behind. Most of the time we just end up losing the ball. Repeat.

Conte is definitely aware of this. He knows that it can take a long time for players to adapt to a new style of play, and he mentioned that specifically when asked why some of our new signings weren't starting.

Which brings me to the 3-5-2, which I think our personnel look much more adept in. After about 70 minutes in the Leicester game, we made substitutions and swapped to a 3-5-2 and saw an immediate difference in midfield/ball retention when we changed to a Hojbjerg, Bissouma and Bentancur trio, with Son and Kane both playing as strikers. We've also used this shape in games against Liverpool at Anfield last season, and a few others. It allows Bentancur and Hojbjerg to do what they're best at, which is winning the ball and driving it forwards. I think one of the reasons that Conte hasn't used this much outside of late tactical changes, is because it leaves us light in midfield depth. We would have to place a lot of trust in inexperienced Pape Sarr and injury riddled Oliver Skipp as the only backups. It's also going to be very ineffective against teams that play in a low block.

The football doesn't really pass the eye test, but when I looked closely at the stats of each Spurs game, there's a slightly different story emerging. Despite seemingly being on the back foot in most games, our xG (expected goals) is still often superior to the opposition. Granted, that's expected for a team that plays on the break, but we also average higher xG values for each individual chance we create. We have been efficient at taking those chances, too, largely thanks to our outstanding quality at that end of the pitch. At the other end, we allow a lot of attempts (3rd most in the Premier League), but they're not typically good quality chances and it's obvious that we're allowing teams space in certain areas of the pitch by design. Most of those attempts have been outside of the box. That's all good, but better teams will be able to punish this.

I think what's encouraging to me is that there's still clearly plenty of room to grow into this season, despite the good results and unbeaten run. We will get better on the ball, the new players will adapt to the tactics, Son's performances will improve, and we won't allow so many chances. We clearly aren't as good as Man City, and Arsenal have started the season very well, but I know this team's potential is sky high despite the incohesive football we've shown so far. Conte's style of football has been divisive in the fanbase and press, but there's something precise and analytical about his approach that gives me a lot of confidence going forward.

How do you rate Conte's Spurs tactics vs Mou's Spurs tactics?

The bolded part was also the postmortem of Conte's Juve & Chelsea's European knockouts. Those teams defaulted more to 352, but the tactical defensive answer in all those cases amounted to compact 442's isolating their centerbacks & dlp's too far back with the ball to build up dangerous play. Lots of sterile possession around the U of the back 5.

[Baphomet]

How do you rate Conte's Spurs tactics vs Mou's Spurs tactics?

The bolded part was also the postmortem of Conte's Juve & Chelsea's European knockouts. Those teams defaulted more to 352, but the tactical defensive answer in all those cases amounted to compact 442's isolating their centerbacks & dlp's too far back with the ball to build up dangerous play. Lots of sterile possession around the U of the back 5.

It's difficult to really say. While our football under Mourinho was relentlessly pragmatic, there felt like fewer actual passages of play, besides the low block it almost felt like everyone else was winging it and relying on Kane and Son's quality rather than acting on design.

With Conte, it's sort of more of the same, but you can tell there is some kind of plan in bringing the ball upfield as on some rare occasions there are some stunning one-touch moments of interplay to create space, which is a trademark of Conte. I do believe that with some time we can become a force, but it's been very hard to watch in the mean time. I feel like we're missing some personnel to play with this shape and the club needs to address that. Emerson Royal is a nice lad but has tits for feet, and Doherty blows cold more than anything else, so we've been severely lacking at RWB, which is a crucial position. Otherwise, more creativity in the middle of the park would be nice.

Despite my occasional angry outbursts at Spurs' performances this season, I'm willing to give Conte time as I think he can build something at the club, assuming he's willing to sign an extension. Mourinho never felt like more than a stop-gap to me, unfortunately.

[HIF]

Poch interested in chelsea job.

[Baphomet]

Poch interested in chelsea job.

Disregarding my personal feelings about Poch and the Spurs connection, I think he'd be a fool to take that job. Chelsea as a club seem to be in absolute disarray at the moment.

[Baseline81]

Since the kick off time was staggered between the Spurs Milan game and Bayern PSG, I watched Bayern vs. PSG during half-time. What a difference to see a team actually attacking and trying to win a football match. Far from Bayern's best team in recent years and they still steamrolled PSG.

Do you think Conte will finish the season? Maybe a better question is who will replace him? Seems like the players want a Poch reunion.

[Baphomet]

Since the kick off time was staggered between the Spurs Milan game and Bayern PSG, I watched Bayern vs. PSG during half-time. What a difference to see a team actually attacking and trying to win a football match. Far from Bayern's best team in recent years and they still steamrolled PSG.

Do you think Conte will finish the season? Maybe a better question is who will replace him? Seems like the players want a Poch reunion.

Honestly, I hope Conte is sacked as soon as possible. We're trending rapidly downwards, and players are now openly criticising the substitutions and tactics. It just needs to be over, I think it could get a lot worse before the summer. Pochettino and Tuchel are available, who to me are both better options, though I'm kind of sick of the Chelsea re-treads at this point.

I like Conte as a person and I've enjoyed watching some of his Juve and Inter teams in the past, but it was a poor fit at Spurs from the start. Don't get me wrong, the players are culpable for some blame too, but Conte is too married to the 343 shape, refuses to change it despite it clearly not working, and his game management has been shocking. Like with Mourinho, the fans (myself included) desperately tried to convince ourselves that hiring these so-called serial winner types was a good idea to fast track success, but football rarely works out like that.

I just want to watch good football again at this point, and have someone who can oversee a rebuild like Poch did in 2015.

[Medbrat]

Conte has been the worst cups coach after pep in modern history. I'm a Juve fan and boy did he embarrass us in both CL and Europa so many times... Literally every time he played in European cups he was a massive disappointment...

[SgtPepper]

^^I think it's mostly Levy's fault. Sacking Mourinho on the eve of a title final is the closest the club has been to a title since the CL final. I also don't think the summer is some oasis in the desert; the club invested a lot in making the Conte era their final push to titles with this generation and it's not clear how much better Tottenham could get even with heavy window activity. I suspect the club is stuck with Kane and Son.

[Baphomet]

^^I think it's mostly Levy's fault. Sacking Mourinho on the eve of a title final is the closest the club has been to a title since the CL final. I also don't think the summer is some oasis in the desert; the club invested a lot in making the Conte era their final push to titles with this generation and it's not clear how much better Tottenham could get even with heavy window activity. I suspect the club is stuck with Kane and Son.

The summer is important because it's when Conte's contract expires and we will be looking for a new manager anyway, not necessarily because we can sign new players. I think the squad is decent, just lacking a better quality CB or two and perhaps a new GK to succeed Lloris.

To me it's clear that Conte isn't staying. The club won't extend him and he won't want to re-sign. That's why I'd prefer to move quicker.

The timing of the Mourinho sacking was a farce, I agree.

[stormi]

I feel like Richarlison as your marquee signing of the summer when you have arguably the best #9 in the world was head scratching and superfluous.

Whether you play in a 3 or a 4, your defenders are quite shocking on the ball, bar Romero. Dier/Sanchez/Lenglet cannot still be playing big minutes for any serious organization in the good year of 2023 with the emphasis on having mobile CB's that can defend in space and ping linebreakers.

Son is absolutely finished, he's more of a fan token than a contributor. Most times I watch Spurs and he's the worst player on the pitch.

Spurs need new life up top and some pace, someone like Moussa Diaby would be a huge get.

And finally a new keeper as the Lloris era has to be coming to an end.

Udogie coming back next season will be a nice bit of life, but to me he seems more of a LWB than a traditional LB, so I wonder what the plan of the future manager will be.

[stormi]

Some of these Conte quotes from today btw... Box office.

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Read on Twitter

[Baphomet]

I feel like Richarlison as your marquee signing of the summer when you have arguably the best #9 in the world was head scratching and superfluous.

Whether you play in a 3 or a 4, your defenders are quite shocking on the ball, bar Romero. Dier/Sanchez/Lenglet cannot still be playing big minutes for any serious organization in the good year of 2023 with the emphasis on having mobile CB's that can defend in space and ping linebreakers.

Son is absolutely finished, he's more of a fan token than a contributor. Most times I watch Spurs and he's the worst player on the pitch.

Spurs need new life up top and some pace, someone like Moussa Diaby would be a huge get.

And finally a new keeper as the Lloris era has to be coming to an end.

Udogie coming back next season will be a nice bit of life, but to me he seems more of a LWB than a traditional LB, so I wonder what the plan of the future manager will be.

I agree with most of your points. My feeling is that the thinking behind the Richarlison signing was that he could, theoretically, cover all three forward positions, but it hasn't panned out that way. He's clearly a #9 and his solid performances there for Brazil, and his best performances at Everton would suggest that.

I'm really excited to see Udogie at Spurs, but I agree that he's more of a LWB. However, if Pochettino is the next manager then I could see him occupying a Danny Rose type role at LB, where back during the peak of Pochettino's tenure, he and Walker would roam higher up the pitch and Dier or Wanyama would slot back in from midfield to cover, forming a back 3 of sorts, to prevent being outnumbered in counter attacks. I could see Hojbjerg or Bentancur performing that covering role well, and it helps alleviate potential drawbacks of Udogie at LB. But that's a lot of what-ifs, and hinges on the incoming manager returning to 4213. I think that shape could also help Son regain his form. I think he's suffering due to the lack of space and chances Spurs currently create, he's always been a confidence player and I don't think he's suddenly turned to **** overnight.

The team desperately needs more competent ball players across the pitch. Anyone who's watched much of Spurs this season can attest to that.

I also moved some of the above posts to the Spurs thread, to avoid cluttering the CL thread.

[SgtPepper]

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