General Soccer/Football Discussion Thread 1.0

[GSWFan1994]

It would help to have a Messi in his 30s like last year, who carried the burden for the whole Argentina team and let other players rise while he was the one who was going to be blamed if Argentina failed again.

Might give the talented but young players more room to breathe.

1. The young players are not so good.

2. The "current great players in their peak" are not so good as well.

That's the main issue. Nevertheless, Neymar would get the blame anyway.

A bit of that could be due to coaching, Tite was horrible.

The point I made in my previous post still stands: the amount of great, all-time players currently playing in the same time, in the same team, has greatly decreased compared to the past. Less "craques" nowadays, but more versatility, focus on tactical futebol, conditioning, etc.

This is basically the "moneyball" of futebol.

PS: a bonus for you guys, 15 of the best Brazilian football expressions. "It flew like a wingless pigeon!"

[SgtPepper]

Of course Brazilians would care less about the WC. The team has been worse than standard for a long time, and even more importantly the country is depressed and government wasted too much money hosting the 18 WC.

As for the craque pretension - we just ran through a decade featuring Cr7, Messi, Mbappe. Even within Brazil you have modern footballers like Vini and Rodrygo who are better overall players than lazy craques like Neymar. That claim is wrong and sidesteps more important factors to WC success like the fact that most wc winning teams have starters who often play together in the same club and have had more time to develop their football chemistry. Brazil's status as a 2nd or 3rd world football country means the best Brazilians are split up on foreigner quota working in Europe. Finally Brazil hasn't been short of craques in attack anyways. They've been starved of skilled midfielders like Felipe Melo for over a decade. Brazil got knocked out to a toothless Croatia because Neymar was playing as a 10 and didn't help at all in 3vs2 mismatches in the midfield which was their weakest area anyways.

[wco81]

Seeing the scores scroll by, both Argentina and Brazil lost today in WC qualifying?

Uruguay 2-0 over Argentina and Columbia 2-1 over Brazil.

[Shaazzam]

Seeing the scores scroll by, both Argentina and Brazil lost today in WC qualifying?

Uruguay 2-0 over Argentina and Columbia 2-1 over Brazil.

My boss is Uruguayan and it's performance review time so go Uruguay!

[bbms]

well first i want to say that i've been so happy with football in the past few weeks since my Fluminense Football Club won the Copa Libertadores Final at Maracanã vs Boca.

Wow.

It's been a crazy intense ride as an off-Rio fan for me. My fist time watching Flu was at the stands of a game in my home town for Brazilian's Third Division in 1999 (Fluminense was away) and since them it's been a ride from that to a first National Title, Brazilian Cup in 2007 on a 23-year drought that dates way back from 1984 Campeonato Brasileiro Serie A title, and then that soul crushing runner up campaingn in Libertadores in 2008.

Always best when you win with style like we did vs Boca with a very unique interpretation of Brazil's grassroots style of offensive and ball-dominant approach while incorporating some high-intensity physical play of modern era. Ready to compete for the two Club World Cup titles in 2023 and 2025!

What a time to be alive!

On the national team subject, well, I don't agree with most of you all here. I think the talent for Brazil is fine, what they lack in the national team is a better defined identity, philosophy and chemistry as a group. World Cup qualifiers are not good enough preparation for the World Cup so when the spinal cord of the team gets scattered and scattered across wildly different club environments, the team as a unit becomes greener even if they have really experienced individuals. When Bosman rule reached the apex of its impact, Seleção's woes intensified.

Looking forward for the next WC cycle because of the amount of brazilian talent that Real Madrid has stacked and continues to add. That makes it easier to have a battle-tested group at the highest level. Most of Brazil's success comes from times were the majority of the players played in Brazil in a more common environment and strategies, when teams like Santos and Botafogo formed the backbone of the team with the addition of few high impact pieces at key spots.

I am a bit worried by how highly brazilian players from the English Premier League are being valued at the moment. Most of the teams of Premier League doesn't get the chance to play the highest level knockout stages in club level and I do think most EPL teams play way too mono-paced rythms, when knockout stages often are decided by how good your team is at controlling the rythm and tempo and decide when to push and when to slow things down.

There's an old saying that football is 11 x 11 and the side with fewer Englishmen wins. I can't help but think this is partially true.

[-Luke-]

One year after Pelé's death, his club Santos FC was relegated for the first time in club history. Tough times for that club.

[GSWFan1994]

Palmeiras this year won the state (São Paulo) and the national cups.

Endrick is coming to Real Madrid next July. Some people are comparing him to Romário.

The 2nd video is from one of his best games. Botafogo was ahead in the standings, and up 3-0 in the game. Palmeiras scored 4 in the 2nd half and ended up winning 4-3.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[bbms]

Palmeiras this year won the state (São Paulo) and the national cups.

Endrick is coming to Real Madrid next July. Some people are comparing him to Romário.

The 2nd video is from one of his best games. Botafogo was ahead in the standings, and up 3-0 in the game. Palmeiras scored 4 in the 2nd half and ended up winning 4-3.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

this kid is an absolute beast

i've never seen anyone move the way he moves

that goal he scored that he moved the defenders by faking a shot using his knee to arrange the ball for the real shot in the same motion is just insane. it's just true quality and efficiency on tight spaces.

it's just weird how hard it is to contain him within his age group, he was arguably pro-level on a physical and technical standpoint since he was 14

hope he's able to take care of his mind, he's very obviously just a kid despite being a phenomenal football player.

[MetalFingaz]

Palmeiras this year won the state (São Paulo) and the national cups.

Endrick is coming to Real Madrid next July. Some people are comparing him to Romário.

The 2nd video is from one of his best games. Botafogo was ahead in the standings, and up 3-0 in the game. Palmeiras scored 4 in the 2nd half and ended up winning 4-3.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

this kid is an absolute beast

i've never seen anyone move the way he moves

that goal he scored that he moved the defenders by faking a shot using his knee to arrange the ball for the real shot in the same motion is just insane. it's just true quality and efficiency on tight spaces.

it's just weird how hard it is to contain him within his age group, he was arguably pro-level on a physical and technical standpoint since he was 14

hope he's able to take care of his mind, he's very obviously just a kid despite being a phenomenal football player.

The goal with the knee touch was absolutely insane.

[bbms]

fun fact about endrick and palmeiras 2023 brasileirão title run

in the 3-4 turnoround by palmeiras @ botafogo is that before the game, botafogo held a tribute to botafogo's rower lucas verthein and canoeist ana sátila, gold medalists on 2023 panamerican games. (botafogo is a club of football and regatta, hosting also other olympic athletes in ther organic structure)

during the warm up, botafogo fans were chanting "we are the champions!" in celebration of their gold medalists.

endrick listened to it without context and took it for a taunt to palmeiras, because of the sizeable lead botafogo held on the championship against second place palmeiras and got pissed off.

3-0 in the second half endrick scored a wonder goal to 3-1 and demanded his teammates to give him the ball (a conduct he later apologized for).

game ended 3-4 destroying botafogo's psychological and mental state and went winless for the following (and final) eight games of the championship, blowing their lead (palmeiras ended up overcoming the deficit and became champions), missing not only the title but Libertadores' group stage spot, having to go to playoffs to qualify for the top continental competition.

17 years old.

[SgtPepper]

From a Real Madrid fan pov he's so young that he's high risk of busting despite the precocity. The last person who entered the club in a similar way was Odeegard and his development accelerated at Sociedad and Arsenal. This is more of a win for Endrick than Odeegard though since he'll get an accelerated European 2nd nationality and homegrown status by the time he's in the professional age group.

[bbms]

From a Real Madrid fan pov he's so young that he's high risk of busting despite the precocity. The last person who entered the club in a similar way was Odeegard and his development accelerated at Sociedad and Arsenal. This is more of a win for Endrick than Odeegard though since he'll get an accelerated European 2nd nationality and homegrown status by the time he's in the professional age group.

i can assure he's far more ready to contribute right now than odegaard was at that point and he already has that league champion as a key piece pedigree, odegaard was a castilla project from the get go like fabinho and casemiro, while endrick is definitely going straight to the first team.

[wco81]

Heard an interview with JJ Watt, who's a minority owner of Burnley.

Sounds like he's been there a few times, learning the local customs and history, learning the songs, etc.

He talks about respecting the traditions and so on.

It sounds like he knew some fans of his who were investors of the type who've been buying up football clubs, particularly in the UK.

I can't tell if the strategy is to buy and then flip the clubs for a higher price later.

But maybe to give him the benefit of the doubt, his wife is a pro player and a member of the US Women's National team so maybe he has genuine enthusiasm for the sport.

I guess Burnley is kind of a deep dive for an American fan of English football, not exactly going for the hits on the album.

He didn't for instance adopt Liverpool or United, which are the obvious choices for many international fans of the PL.

[SgtPepper]

He didn't for instance adopt Liverpool or United, which are the obvious choices for many international fans of the PL.

1. He's not a fan, he's an investor. It's pretty rare for investors to also be fans of the club these days. Sugar daddies like Abramovich and the dominant investors in fan-run clubs like in the Bundesliga are the exceptions who are both. The rest are all looking for a return of some form.
2. From an investor pov these 2 clubs are at opposite extremes. Liverpool is run by FSG which is reputed for developing competitive franchises which tend to be leaders in operations, while Man U is being run as a cash cow.

[El Turco]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12910363/Turkish-Super-Cup-risk-Fenerbahce-Galatasaray-Saudi-Arabia.html

Turkish Super Cup final in Saudi Arabia has been cancelled because Saudis had a problem with tshirts that had the face of secular founder of Turkey, Ataturk.

I hope FIFA dissolves by 2034 so that no one has to go to that hellhole to watch football games.

[-Luke-]

Ancelotti has (surprisingly?) extended his contract with Real Madrid for two years.

This has a few consequences beyond Real:
- Brazil needs a different national team coach
- Leverkusen can hope that Xabi Alonso will stay there for a few more years (unless FC Hollywood uhm... Bayern fires Tuchel)

[SgtPepper]

It wasn't surprising to me. When Ancelotti was given freedom to get rid of peak age Casemiro after 4 straight years of being the most consistent midfield starter in 2021, given a free pass after winning no major titles last season including losing to a severely pedestrian Barcelona (something that would have definitely earned a sacking with a more mature and developed squad like when he was sacked in 2015), and he sat through this unbalanced post-Benzema phase it seemed clear he and Florentino were planning to collab for a long time. I also think club coaches in general prefer coaching there over NT since the latter has far fewer intervention opportunities and tenures are typically shorter. Brazil also seems far off from being balanced and continental and their progress seems bottlenecked by having new well-rounded generalists enter the midfield rather than a change in tactics.

[GSWFan1994]

Ancelotti has (surprisingly?) extended his contract with Real Madrid for two years.

This has a few consequences beyond Real:
- Brazil needs a different national team coach
- Leverkusen can hope that Xabi Alonso will stay there for a few more years (unless FC Hollywood uhm... Bayern fires Tuchel)

Man... the press here in Brazil was really surprised, some of them (in the "hot takes" shows and such) were at the point of crying, lol.

I always found it very, very difficult for him to come over and coach the national team. Very unlikely. The pressure would be absurdly high.

The brazilian team is on a very, very low point currently, as far as results, expectations and such. Not the lowest I've ever seen (the 91-93 period perhaps takes the cake), but a very low point.

I'd also say that the fan engagement is BY FAR at an all-time low point. The magic seems to have been gone, and I don't know if it's ever coming back again. The 7-1 loss to Germany really left a sour taste in the mouths of many.

Putting all these things together... I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel yet. Let's see what happens in the coming months. My best guess is that there needs to appear a young, all-time generational level player (or a group of them) to fix this.

[GSWFan1994]

Now, the sad news for today.

Brazilian soccer legend Mário Jorge Lobo Zagallo, aka Zagallo, aka "O Velho Lobo" ("The Old Wolf") has died today, at 92 years old.

He was a starter for the 1958 and 1962 world cup winning team. Also, he was the head coach for the 1970 team, and... the assistant coach for the 1994 team, making him the only person, as far as I know, to be part of four title teams in world cup history.

Also, he was the head coach for the 1998 team, which lost to France in the final.

As a coach of the brazilian national team (1970-1974, 1994-1998), he had a record of:
136 games
97 wins
29 draws
10 losses

He was also the last surviving brazilian player who played in the 1958 world cup final.

Against true brazilian fashion of putting a nickname in every single name ever, Zagallo was one of the very few players who was known by his surname.

Here's his Wikipedia page if you guys want to read, he had a really great career and life, overcame a lot in his life.


He played for only 2 clubs in his 14-year playing career, Flamengo and Botafogo.


Brazilian team before boarding the flight to Sweden for 1958 World Cup. Pelé and Zagallo on the far right.


Garrincha, Didi, Pelé, Vavá and Zagallo (Didi always gets my vote for most underrated player ever - check out YouTube videos for his "dry leaf" pass).


1970 World Cup, IIRC.


In the late 2000's, if my memory serves me well.

Watch on YouTube

"You'll have to swallow me!" on live TV - by far his most iconic moment.

Context: after 1994 world cup title, Brazil was playing badly from the 1995-1997 time period. Zagallo was the coach. He was heavily criticized by the press.

Then Brazil played the Copa América and beat Bolívia in the final, 3-0. At the end of the game, the press went after Zagallo, who gave the interview above. I'll roughly translate it:

(narrator): "It's over! It's over! Here's Zagallo hugging his guys! Brazil is champion! Once more, the brazilian soccer's star shines again!
(Zagallo): "Yes, I can talk, why not? We won. It was difficult. We didn't have the same speed... (takes a deep breath) but we had heart. This is for you. You know who you are. I don't have to say anything more. You'll have to swallow me!
(reporter asks him about the importance of the victory, if it was the same as winning the world cup)
(Zagallo): "No, it was a sensational victory, we fought a lot, with blood, effort, will, from the ones who love Brazil, not the ones who reject this country!"


After Pelé's passing.

RIP to "The Old Wolf", guy was truly a legend.

Your name will be remembered forever.

[-Luke-]

World Cup 1994 was the first one I watched. I wasn't aware that Zagallo "only" was assistant coach back then. Always thought he was the head coach. Probably confused it with 98.

Anyway, still the only person who was world champion as player and coach with more than two titles. Beckenbauer and Deschamps are the only others who won as player and coach, but both are 1+1.