General Soccer/Football Discussion Thread 1.0

[GSWFan1994]

World Cup 1994 was the first one I watched. I wasn't aware that Zagallo "only" was assistant coach back then. Always thought he was the head coach. Probably confused it with 98.

Anyway, still the only person who was world champion as player and coach with more than two titles. Beckenbauer and Deschamps are the only others who won as player and coach, but both are 1+1.

Well said, my friend.

The 1986 WC was the first one I remembered watching, but I was very young. The 1990 one, I remember it fully.

The Parreira/Zagallo duo was the head coach/assistant coach duo in 1994, later too in 2006.

Parreira (Carlos Alberto Parreira) was a good coach as well, very much criticized by the press (who wasn't?), but he brought results. And almost won in 2006 too, which was the last good generation of brazilian futebol IMHO.

Compared to most of the guys we have had since then... yep, they surely did a good job.

Cheers and thank you for the post.

[bbms]

Now, the sad news for today.

Brazilian soccer legend Mário Jorge Lobo Zagallo, aka Zagallo, aka "O Velho Lobo" ("The Old Wolf") has died today, at 92 years old.

He was a starter for the 1958 and 1962 world cup winning team. Also, he was the head coach for the 1970 team, and... the assistant coach for the 1994 team, making him the only person, as far as I know, to be part of four title teams in world cup history.

Also, he was the head coach for the 1998 team, which lost to France in the final.

As a coach of the brazilian national team (1970-1974, 1994-1998), he had a record of:
136 games
97 wins
29 draws
10 losses

He was also the last surviving brazilian player who played in the 1958 world cup final.

Against true brazilian fashion of putting a nickname in every single name ever, Zagallo was one of the very few players who was known by his surname.

Here's his Wikipedia page if you guys want to read, he had a really great career and life, overcame a lot in his life.


He played for only 2 clubs in his 14-year playing career, Flamengo and Botafogo.


Brazilian team before boarding the flight to Sweden for 1958 World Cup. Pelé and Zagallo on the far right.


Garrincha, Didi, Pelé, Vavá and Zagallo (Didi always gets my vote for most underrated player ever - check out YouTube videos for his "dry leaf" pass).


1970 World Cup, IIRC.


In the late 2000's, if my memory serves me well.

Watch on YouTube

"You'll have to swallow me!" on live TV - by far his most iconic moment.

Context: after 1994 world cup title, Brazil was playing badly from the 1995-1997 time period. Zagallo was the coach. He was heavily criticized by the press.

Then Brazil played the Copa América and beat Bolívia in the final, 3-0. At the end of the game, the press went after Zagallo, who gave the interview above. I'll roughly translate it:

(narrator): "It's over! It's over! Here's Zagallo hugging his guys! Brazil is champion! Once more, the brazilian soccer's star shines again!
(Zagallo): "Yes, I can talk, why not? We won. It was difficult. We didn't have the same speed... (takes a deep breath) but we had heart. This is for you. You know who you are. I don't have to say anything more. You'll have to swallow me!
(reporter asks him about the importance of the victory, if it was the same as winning the world cup)
(Zagallo): "No, it was a sensational victory, we fought a lot, with blood, effort, will, from the ones who love Brazil, not the ones who reject this country!"


After Pelé's passing.

RIP to "The Old Wolf", guy was truly a legend.

Your name will be remembered forever.

one of the greatest minds of this sport ever

the sport has never been the same ever since he assumed the helm in 1970 and took off edu in favor of roberto rivellino in that starting 11. his conviction was that 4-2-4 was outdated and he needed a winger that could close in the middle and associate, thus creating a team that could shapeshifto from 4-2-3-1 to 4-4-2 to 4-2-4 to 3-3-4 to 3-2-5 with the same personnel.

Félix; Carlos Alberto, Brito, Piazza and Everaldo; Clodoaldo, Gerson, Jairzinho, Pelé and Rivellino; Tostão. HC: Mario Jorge Lobo Zagallo.

[GSWFan1994]

one of the greatest minds of this sport ever

the sport has never been the same ever since he assumed the helm in 1970 and took off edu in favor of roberto rivellino in that starting 11. his conviction was that 4-2-4 was outdated and he needed a winger that could close in the middle and associate, thus creating a team that could shapeshifto from 4-2-3-1 to 4-4-2 to 4-2-4 to 3-3-4 to 3-2-5 with the same personnel.

Félix; Carlos Alberto, Brito, Piazza and Everaldo; Clodoaldo, Gerson, Jairzinho, Pelé and Rivellino; Tostão. HC: Mario Jorge Lobo Zagallo.

For sure, buddy.

The 1970 team, as far as I understand futebol, is the best team ever. Every older futebol fan that I've met says the same thing.

The Gérson/Jairzinho/Pelé/Rivellino/Tostão quintet is simply too much firepower and talent.

Anyone who considers himself a futebol fan should watch this team's highlights or full games, it's available on YT.

Cheers and um grande abraço.

[-Luke-]

World Cup 1994 was the first one I watched. I wasn't aware that Zagallo "only" was assistant coach back then. Always thought he was the head coach. Probably confused it with 98.

Anyway, still the only person who was world champion as player and coach with more than two titles. Beckenbauer and Deschamps are the only others who won as player and coach, but both are 1+1.

Well said, my friend.

The 1986 WC was the first one I remembered watching, but I was very young. The 1990 one, I remember it fully.

The Parreira/Zagallo duo was the head coach/assistant coach duo in 1994, later too in 2006.

Parreira (Carlos Alberto Parreira) was a good coach as well, very much criticized by the press (who wasn't?), but he brought results. And almost won in 2006 too, which was the last good generation of brazilian futebol IMHO.

Compared to most of the guys we have had since then... yep, they surely did a good job.

Cheers and thank you for the post.

I probably didn't remember Carlos Alberto Parreira because a different Carlos Alberto is still considered the biggest botched transfer of my favorite club (his nickname was Chaos Alberto). But now that you mention 2006, I remember him.

What I remember about the 94 World Cup was that Senna died shortly before it began. It was also the first year I watched some Formula 1. I'm sure the title was a very emotional win in Brazil.

[GSWFan1994]

I probably didn't remember Carlos Alberto Parreira because a different Carlos Alberto is still considered the biggest botched transfer of my favorite club (his nickname was Chaos Alberto). But now that you mention 2006, I remember him.

What I remember about the 94 World Cup was that Senna died shortly before it began. It was also the first year I watched some Formula 1. I'm sure the title was a very emotional win in Brazil.

Yep, I know who that Carlos Alberto is... one of the most eccentric players to ever come out of Brazil... in a land full of eccentric players.

He still is the youngest player ever to score a goal in a Champions League final, no? IIRC.

Anyway, this guy is always appearing on some podcasts here (about futebol), he's a very funny and ballsy interview.

Regarding Senna, you're correct. It was a very emotional win in 1994 apart from that too, because the last title was in 1970. I remember the team hanging a banner dedicated to Senna in the field, after winning the final against Italy.



"Senna, we accelerated together... the 4th title is ours"



Newspaper front cover one day after the title.

[-Luke-]

Just two days ago I mentioned Franz Beckenbauer as one of three people who won the World Cup as player and coach (with Zagallo and Deschamps being the other two). Now Kaiser Franz has passed away, too.

Was not a huge fan of him as a person, but absolute football legend. When I grew up watching football it was always said that Pelé, Maradonna and Beckenbauer were the best to ever play the game. With Cruyff in the mix as well. All gone now.

[GSWFan1994]

Just two days ago I mentioned Franz Beckenbauer as one of three people who won the World Cup as player and coach (with Zagallo and Deschamps being the other two). Now Kaiser Franz has passed away, too.

Was not a huge fan of him as a person, but absolute football legend. When I grew up watching football it was always said that Pelé, Maradonna and Beckenbauer were the best to ever play the game. With Cruyff in the mix as well. All gone now.

Wow, I just saw the news. Really sad, RIP.

Mind if I ask you, why weren't you a fan of him as a person? I thought he was unanimous amongst german people, just a clean sheet of life.

[-Luke-]

Just two days ago I mentioned Franz Beckenbauer as one of three people who won the World Cup as player and coach (with Zagallo and Deschamps being the other two). Now Kaiser Franz has passed away, too.

Was not a huge fan of him as a person, but absolute football legend. When I grew up watching football it was always said that Pelé, Maradonna and Beckenbauer were the best to ever play the game. With Cruyff in the mix as well. All gone now.

Wow, I just saw the news. Really sad, RIP.

Mind if I ask you, why weren't you a fan of him as a person? I thought he was unanimous amongst german people, just a clean sheet of life.

Just didn't trust him. He had the aura of a messiah, but was also a rather corrupt person. But I suppose that's normal in this business. He was kind of (unintenionally) funny though.

He was definitely not unanimous amongst Germans. It probably also has to do with the fact that he played for Bayern (and later also was coach and president). And FC Bayern is just the club that many love and many hate. Last year Uwe Seeler died. I would say Beckenbauer, Seeler and Fritz Walter are the big three in german football. But Seeler was a different type of person than Beckenbauer. He was one of the most humble and loyal players ever. I guess Germans just like people like Seeler and Nowitzki more than a guy like Beckenbauer. Seeler only played for Hamburger SV, which is the biggest rival of my club, Werder Bremen. It can be pure hate when the two clubs play. But not a single Werder fan has ever said a bad word about Uwe Seeler, he was loved by everybody. Beckenbauer was even better at football, but also more controversial.

When it comes to football he is beyond reproach and nobody doubts what he meant. He was one of the greatest players of all time and even if he wasn't the greatest, he was the greatest in Germany and the best defensive player to ever play. Many central defenders and defensive midfielders today play like Beckenbauer. He was just ahead of his time, just like Cruyff was (Kaiser Franz and King Johan are united again).

I used to underestimate his tenure as a coach of the German national team. There is that story that before the final against Argentina in 1990 he just told the players "Geht's raus und spielt's Fußball" (Go out there and play football). He wasn't the biggest X's and O's guy like we use to say in basketball. But now I see it differently. The 1990 title team had incredible and intelligent (when it comes to football) players like Matthäus, Hässler, Littbarski, Klinsmann, Völler etc. and great workers like Buchwald, all at their peak. It takes some humility to step aside as a coach and trust your players, when you know that they know what they are doing. Beckenbauer led them to a title and put his (probably very big) ego aside.

Ruhe in Frieden, Kaiser Franz!

[Masigond]

Wow, I just saw the news. Really sad, RIP.

Mind if I ask you, why weren't you a fan of him as a person? I thought he was unanimous amongst german people, just a clean sheet of life.

While quite arguably being the greatest German football player of all time with such a vast amount of success as a player, coach and manager, there are some shady sides when regarding the man himself. What about his committing of tax fraud, neglect of human rights violations (mostly in Qatar with the apologetic and utterly ridiculous statement: "I’ve never seen slaves in Qatar. The workers walking around free and are not in chains"), and many hints of being corrupt?

I still chuckle a lot about the nickname "Firlefranz" ("Firlefanz" means "nonsense"), as Beckenbauer was very prone of babbling nonsense and contradicting himself, often changing his opinion in one and the same interview.

He was made such an idol by the German public and - even more important - by German media (he collaborated with the somewhat infamous tabloid "BILD" which in turn drew a very positive picture of him), elevating him to being the "Lichtgestalt" ("a shining light" comes up a bit short as a translation. The German word translates more to almost being immaculate). Thus the downfall is quite harsh when you know a bit more about the person Franz Beckenbauer, and not only the image perceived by many.

[-Luke-]

I still chuckle a lot about the nickname "Firlefranz" ("Firlefanz" means "nonsense"), as Beckenbauer was very prone of babbling nonsense and contradicting himself, often changing his opinion in one and the same interview.

Yeah, his contradicting and naive interviews were legendary. I remember when they talked about doping. He said that he had never done anything like that and that it simply didn't exist in the past. Then, I think literally in the next sentence, he told how the team doctor had often given them "vitamin pills" in the past. They swallowed everything he gave them. But it couldn't have been anything illegal if the doctor said it was only vitamin pills. A typical Beckenbauer.

[GSWFan1994]

Just didn't trust him. He had the aura of a messiah, but was also a rather corrupt person. But I suppose that's normal in this business. He was kind of (unintenionally) funny though.

(..)

While quite arguably being the greatest German football player of all time with such a vast amount of success as a player, coach and manager, there are some shady sides when regarding the man himself. What about his committing of tax fraud, neglect of human rights violations (mostly in Qatar with the apologetic and utterly ridiculous statement: "I’ve never seen slaves in Qatar. The workers walking around free and are not in chains"), and many hints of being corrupt?

(...)

About the ego thing, most of the greats have it too, as far as I know. Zagallo had a huge ego as well. I guess that's just how their personality works.

About the corruption side of things, you're correct. I remember reading about it, though obviously I don't know much about it as you guys. I remember watching that documentary "FIFA Uncovered" and it says something Beckenbauer there, his dealings with the FIFA president and such.

I guess that's part of the "game" within the game, you end up associating yourself with these people in one way or another. Then once you're all in the same basket, it's very hard to clean up your name without consequences to your public image.

Nevertheless, the guy was a great player, and reach the top of his profession both as a player and as a coach. That's undisputable.

[SgtPepper]

I became a football fan in 2010 so it always seemed guys like Beckenbauer and Cruyff were crazy egoists. But it's probably inevitable for players that high profile to be political. Beckenbauer was a loud voice in scapegoating Ozil after the 2018 German WC ko in the group stages despite the fact a number of the Bayern contingent were way worse performers like Muller. One of his fellow Bayern board members came out and apologized for his conduct after the fact mentioning that Becks had always been baised against Ozil. Considering the politics around Ozil was about being a binational Turkish Muslim it was a mess.

Cruyff was the voice of football colonialism in Ajax's failed "partnership" with Chivas. The latter's football career also depended far more on talent than work ethic. He largely left Ajax for not treating him as a prima donna and trying to wean him off cigarettes. But overall I find the latter more sympathetic due to the fact he was house arrested in Catalunya, was an active footballer during the fascist Franco regime, and died of cancer.

[wco81]

Just finished watching the Beckham limited series, really enjoyed it.

I didn’t follow football in the late ‘90s and early 2000s. I don’t think PL games were broadcast widely in the US like they are now.

But I remember hearing all the tabloid stuff, about his hair style and all the celebrity stuff with the Spice Girls.

Obviously he did inspire the young in the UK. I enjoyed Bend it like Beckham.

Didn’t know about him being sent off in the ‘98 WC, vs. Argentina of all teams. In fact they showed Mardonna and the Hand of God, which I knew was a huge deal with the English. What I didn’t realize is that that match was just a couple of years after the Falklands war.


But the general impression I had was that he was more celebrity than a great player, certainly not of the stature of others like Zidane who were his contemporaries.

I think that’s mostly true, he was talented with striking the ball but he was eclipsed by other players. I think it was the 2004 Euro where England was going to beat France but they came back and won including free kick goals which was Beckham’s main thing.

However this doc showed how hard he worked on his craft as a boy, mostly because his father drove him hard.

He also went through some hardships even after becoming a global star, like How he ended up leaving United and how he was shut out by Cappello at Real.

They showed some of the Galacticos. Wow Ronaldo was still fat then. Was even surprised how well other La LiGa teams played against them but most of those stars were probably old by then.


In any event I enjoyed the doc a lot more than I expected to. Beckham close to 50 seemed happy with great kids. He liked simple things like beekeeping and grilling.

I wouldn’t say grounded though, because he’s living on this big estate where he does beekeeping and has some posh tent for his grills.

And he’s involved with the Miami MLS club and the signing of Messi, so he still stays in the limelight, not just enjoying simple things in life.

[-Luke-]

Messi won FIFA player of the year 2023.

I mean, all due respect to Messi. But who's going to win in 2024? Alfredo di Stefano? Ferenc Puskás? Come on now...

[SgtPepper]

To be fair his competitors didn't differentiate themselves. Mbappe was at the same club and did worse at the WC, Haaland had nice seasons but is in the most stacked club in Europe and was inessential to any title win and was rotated throughout the campaign by Pep, Lewandowski& CR7 changed clubs. I think the best alternative shouts were Rodri (UCL player of season) or Bernardo Silva but neither were essential. I think Haaland has the most potential to be a future BdO winner if his coach doesn't sub him off as often after scoring 2+ goals in a match.

[-Luke-]

The World Cup doesn't matter. "The selection criteria for the men's players and coaches was: respective achievements during the period from 19 December 2022 to 20 August 2023.[4]"

The World Cup final was on December 18th 2022. Messi already got that award for his World Cup accomplishments last year. This year he got it for... what?

[SgtPepper]

That's 3/4's of a year at a random segment but even then Messi consistently won the most man of match awards at club level (PSG) and Argentina over that period. If that timespan was stretched into the following season there could be room for debate, but mainly because he's playing in a weaker league rather than because the field of rivals have outperformed him. I'm not excited about the outcome either, and think those start and end dates of consideration were doctored in a calculating way, but within those constraints Messi is measurably at least the best forward and chance creator. I also think the awards collectively are a farce and disproportionately go to players who are in the team that won the most important titles rather than the most impactful players. I think Guardiola is a consistent underperformer in the UCL for 5+ seasons of losing it with such a stacked squad, and somehow Xavi made the shortlist of 5 best coaches despite conducting a 2nd awful European campaign.

As an aside, I've been underwhelmed by Mbappe for the last 2 seasons. He seems on an inferior development trajectory to both Cr7 and Messi and gets paid more than both of them combined during their peak years.

[-Luke-]

As an aside, I've been underwhelmed by Mbappe for the last 2 seasons. He seems on an inferior development trajectory to both Cr7 and Messi and gets paid more than both of them combined during their peak years.

I wonder where he ends up. No club will pay him what PSG pays (it was reported that he got a 100 million signing fee for his last contract, plus a very high salary). Real had a very clever transfer policy for several years now. They won't ruin their salary structure for Mbappe. So he either has to make a clear cutback in terms of money, stay with PSG or go to Saudi Arabia.

I agree about the general sentiment regarding those awards. In my first post I also had the date wrong. I thought the period was from end of december 2022 to end of December 2023, including Messi's Miami time. That makes it less absurd to me, although I still don't like the decision. I guess they had a longer period because of the World Cup in December last year and this year was an adjustment to the normal rhythm.

[bbms]

Messi won FIFA player of the year 2023.

I mean, all due respect to Messi. But who's going to win in 2024? Alfredo di Stefano? Ferenc Puskás? Come on now...

the thing is messi was voted by players and coaches of national football teams. one of two possibilities: either they didn't understand the 2023 cut or didn't give a damn

i guess this deserved criticism on messi's 2023 award is going to calm down modric detractors in 2018. i really think modric deserved that one, football critic is dumbing down on goals+assist numbers when analysing high level football.

[SgtPepper]

Eh, I am one of those Modric BdO detractors. I prefer Modric over Ronaldo overall but as someone who watched most of the matches that season I think Modric was the 3rd best midfielder in Real (and at most the 5th best player at the club overall) and that the award was given to him for circumstantial and political reasons (Croatia's deep run in the WC due to the wonder team, Madrid winning the CL with him as a starter, and Madrid's press unifying around him after Cr7 left in the summer). On performance I feel the same way about Xavi making the podium in 2010. Player, coaches, and democracry don't produce the most correct or fair results in this sport. Eg there must be some cognitive biases at play or more likely an organized press core amplifying some names like Barca for Messi and Madrid for Ronaldo over most of the 2010s. If the voters for this award were less forward-biased I would have liked Sergio Ramos to win one. He's the most well-rounded cb I've watched despite the red cards and the periodic comedy.

I think Messi's win this time is far more straightforward and meritocratic than those though.