General Soccer/Football Discussion Thread 1.0

[bbms]

circumstantial and political reasons (Croatia's deep run in the WC due to the wonder team, Madrid winning the CL with him as a starter, and Madrid's press unifying around him after Cr7 left in the summer).

well, in my opinion, in WC year, WC should be the most important competition to consider when talking about the best player of the year

"oh it's just seven games"

well, it's just 100m under 10s in the olympics.

it's the biggest stage, with the biggest audience, the biggest share of global football market, with biggest stakes...

there is a huge amount of die hard football fans worldwide that don't give a damn for about 99% of uefa champions league football, but people who don't give a damn about football at all give a damn about World Cup.

[SgtPepper]

You keep presuming stupid things about my pov. Please think more. I view the WC as the most important and interesting competition. I just don't believe Modric drove that team in the way Zizou or Messi did, and that Croatia squad was secretly stacked and world class. Player for player they were better than England's despite the latter's players being more famous for largely being in the epl. The croatian midfield in particular has been one of the best in the world for about a decade, while during 2018 the whole team was at a peak with the striker and cb situations.

[bbms]

You keep presuming stupid things about my pov. Please think more. I view the WC as the most important and interesting competition. I just don't believe Modric drove that team in the way Zizou or Messi did, and that Croatia squad was secretly stacked and world class. Player for player they were better than England's despite the latter's players being more famous for largely being in the epl. The croatian midfield in particular has been one of the best in the world for about a decade, while during 2018 the whole team was at a peak with the striker and cb situations.

i didn't presume anything, sorry if i unintentionally sound that way

but i do disagree with your talent evaluation of that croatia team, though. that team really fought the hardest and had some talent but they didn't have explosive options offensively and solidness defensively, and were very reliant on the central midfield to have pretty tight control of their games' pace, where rakitic and modric shone

[SgtPepper]

Ok, no worries.

That year's Mandzukic was one of the best strikers in the world and had proven himself at Bayern/Atleti/Juve, Lovren/Rakitic/Vrajslko peaked at wc clubs, Vida & Kramaric peaked, Perisic/Rebic broke out and were signed by big european clubs after. And then let's name the quality in midfield behind Modric and Rakitic - Brozovic who has had a career in Italy as one of it's best midfielders, Kovacic whose performances were respected by Real/Chelsea fans, Badelj who was still excellent technically even if he lived down from breakout expectations. Altogether that squad had 16 outfielders who were strong performers in Europe before the tournament. Teams that stacked usually don't need 1 star player to get results, and if you analyse the 7 matches Croatia played within the team Modric only won one man of the match, Rakitic 2, and a bunch of other players also won 1 like Strinic, Badelj, Perisic,and Mandzukic. That indicates Modric was a consistent contributor within a well distributed team rather than indispensible. I also don't think he can be argued as the most consistent performer for Croatia in the WC either because Rakitic and Brozovic were very close and possibly better.

[wco81]

Do the players really care about those individual awards? Especially after they've gotten a half dozen of those trophies?

Does a couple of BdO lead to much higher salaries or are salaries structured on incentives to win such awards?

[SgtPepper]

Tons of money from ads & image rights for the player.

[magik9113]

Ok, no worries.

That year's Mandzukic was one of the best strikers in the world and had proven himself at Bayern/Atleti/Juve, Lovren/Rakitic/Vrajslko peaked at wc clubs, Vida & Kramaric peaked, Perisic/Rebic broke out and were signed by big european clubs after. And then let's name the quality in midfield behind Modric and Rakitic - Brozovic who has had a career in Italy as one of it's best midfielders, Kovacic whose performances were respected by Real/Chelsea fans, Badelj who was still excellent technically even if he lived down from breakout expectations. Altogether that squad had 16 outfielders who were strong performers in Europe before the tournament. Teams that stacked usually don't need 1 star player to get results, and if you analyse the 7 matches Croatia played within the team Modric only won one man of the match, Rakitic 2, and a bunch of other players also won 1 like Strinic, Badelj, Perisic,and Mandzukic. That indicates Modric was a consistent contributor within a well distributed team rather than indispensible. I also don't think he can be argued as the most consistent performer for Croatia in the WC either because Rakitic and Brozovic were very close and possibly better.

While I agree about Mandzukic, who I think never got enough credit anywhere throughout his entire career--and their midfield was dominant indeed-- I would bet money that if you take Modric out of that squad, they do not get very far. For me it would be the same thing as taking Pirlo out of Italy in 2006...despite having legendary players in almost every position and on the bench, he is not replaceable. This, in my opinion, is what makes them contenders for awards like this.


Overall, I think there were better choices for the award, but Messi is still Messi

[wco81]

Modric and Pirlo were pretty effective into their 30s. Messi too obviously.

But were they making big runs at that stage? Were they ever those kinds of players like Messi was in his youth where he'd beat several defenders in making those long runs along the wing?

Instead, they can make these pinpoint passes into the box or move the ball to the right player to lead to great scoring chances.

As well as accuracy in set pieces.

Seems like the sport has changed, now with more aggressive pressing, with defenders getting better at pressing and taking strategic fouls to prevent runs, the game now is to make quick, accurate passes.

Every team is now doing some version of tika taka? Will we ever see players making iconic runs like Maradona again? Even if there are players with potential for that kind of individual brilliance, they're being coached to play within the system, move the ball up with high-percentage passes and for those with great technical precision, they make the wow passes.

In that Beckham documentary, they showed Beckham having room and time often for making long passes or even that goal he scored from almost mid pitch. You wouldn't see that in the PL now or as frequently, because they press all over the pitch and if there are players who are brilliant with the ball, then they're often doubled and tripled.

[Mamba81p]

After Henderson, benzema wants out too. This should be a cautionary tale for everyone.

[MetalFingaz]

After Henderson, benzema wants out too. This should be a cautionary tale for everyone.

Extremely funny, extremely predictable. Apparently Henderson deferred his salary so he didn't make a dime from his time in Saudi Arabia. Really something to torpedo your reputation for $0. He'll spend the rest of his life trying to make up for this one terrible decision when he could have just quietly retired as a Liverpool legend.

[wco81]

Was it mostly lifestyle that Amelie’s couldn’t tolerate?

[magik9113]

Modric and Pirlo were pretty effective into their 30s. Messi too obviously.

But were they making big runs at that stage? Were they ever those kinds of players like Messi was in his youth where he'd beat several defenders in making those long runs along the wing?

Instead, they can make these pinpoint passes into the box or move the ball to the right player to lead to great scoring chances.

As well as accuracy in set pieces.

Seems like the sport has changed, now with more aggressive pressing, with defenders getting better at pressing and taking strategic fouls to prevent runs, the game now is to make quick, accurate passes.

Every team is now doing some version of tika taka? Will we ever see players making iconic runs like Maradona again? Even if there are players with potential for that kind of individual brilliance, they're being coached to play within the system, move the ball up with high-percentage passes and for those with great technical precision, they make the wow passes.

In that Beckham documentary, they showed Beckham having room and time often for making long passes or even that goal he scored from almost mid pitch. You wouldn't see that in the PL now or as frequently, because they press all over the pitch and if there are players who are brilliant with the ball, then they're often doubled and tripled.

The discussion began talking about ballon dor / FIFA player of the year winners, and I felt Modric had a good shot during Croatia's wc final run, despite them having other star players. Of course, Messi and Ronaldo, being who they are, won all these awards over the years--and any complaints against it are futile...with the exception of course of this most recent one, as Messi was subpar for PSG and then went to the MLS.
There's no real need to compare Modric/Pirlo to Messi, as they are deep lying playmakers.
I do think there's a role for these types of players, there just hasn't really been any who are as good as they are. Lobotka on Napoli played the role brilliantly last season under Spalletti, and they won the scudetto. Locatelli is doing it for Juve this season, but he simply isn't as good as Pirlo or Modric were. Of course, I do agree that these positions are more likely to be utilized in Spain and Italy than England.

[magik9113]

After Henderson, benzema wants out too. This should be a cautionary tale for everyone.

and to think I actually fell for the hype and was scared that the Saudi league would continue to steal Europe's elite

[wco81]

After Henderson, benzema wants out too. This should be a cautionary tale for everyone.

and to think I actually fell for the hype and was scared that the Saudi league would continue to steal Europe's elite

Most of these are players towards the end of their careers so it's a chance for them to really cash in.

What if they got some players in their early 20s? They're less likely to have families in tow so they can concentrate mostly on football and their bank accounts.

Of course the Saudis probably want established are players or outright superstars.

But they've bought off a lot of the top pro golfers so it's going to be too tempting to turn away from the kind of money they're offering.

[magik9113]

After Henderson, benzema wants out too. This should be a cautionary tale for everyone.

and to think I actually fell for the hype and was scared that the Saudi league would continue to steal Europe's elite

Most of these are players towards the end of their careers so it's a chance for them to really cash in.

What if they got some players in their early 20s? They're less likely to have families in tow so they can concentrate mostly on football and their bank accounts.

Of course the Saudis probably want established are players or outright superstars.

But they've bought off a lot of the top pro golfers so it's going to be too tempting to turn away from the kind of money they're offering.

I did think that younger players would be the next step. They did well with some players who were still in their prime, like Sergej Milinkovic Savic. But with all these rumors of the likes of Benzema wanting out, and Henderson literally forfeiting the fortune offered to him, I assume it will make young players at least think twice

[SgtPepper]

Benzema shouldn't be bundled with Hendo. Former's career has been mired by many avoidable controversies. The evidence on whole suggests Saudi will continue to suck in European talent considering the rest of the summer sales are happy.
Veratti is there in the middle of his peak. I don't see how his choice to join them is more mercenary than enzo's choice to join Utd Jr last winter.

And yes Modric is a B2b not dlp.

[MetalFingaz]

Jota from Celtic might be the youngest star (24) who moved to Saudi Arabia. Definitely seems like he was primed to move to a so-called "bigger" club, but opted for Al-Ittihad instead.

[magik9113]

To me it just seems like a buffed up China. When Oscar signed there for big money in his prime, it was a huge deal, but nothing really came out of that.

Benzema shouldn't be bundled with Hendo. Former's career has been mired by many avoidable controversies. The evidence on whole suggests Saudi will continue to suck in European talent considering the rest of the summer sales are happy.
Veratti is there in the middle of his peak. I don't see how his choice to join them is more mercenary than enzo's choice to join Utd Jr last winter.

And yes Modric is a B2b not dlp.

At 31 years old with a rep for smoking, drinking, and being lazy, I can't really consider Verratti to be at his peak any longer.
To me, he is one of the biggest letdowns considering how good he should have been.

[SgtPepper]

Could see Tuchel, Xavi, and Ten Haag all sacked in the next 6 months.

[SgtPepper]

Annual football moneyleague report came out:
https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/sports-business-group/articles/deloitte-football-money-league.html

The big picture takeaways include that clubs overall got poorer compared to pre-covid, the traditional leaders also changed a lot (used to be Barca and Utd at top with Real a lagging 2nd or 3rd) reflecting the slow long-term effect of bad management of the other 2 clubs. The rankings don't mean much beyond the ability of those clubs to take in revenue, since most of that revenue is eaten in cost and some of these clubs like Chelsea are still borderline run like sugar daddy clubs while others (Real and Bayern) are run as sports franchise brand businesses. Trend of misalignment of incentives between competing well vs getting rich also continues.