Is the GOAT debate over ?

[GSWFan1994]

Messi is amazing and I love him as a player. But for me, based on what I've seen, watched, read, and also heard from people older than me, in terms of overall accomplishments and impact on the sport, it's still Pelé.

Ranking players from the last 15/20 years or so is a very difficult thing for me, for the simple reason that some teams are absurdly more stacked than others, the competition gets absolutely erased in some tournaments, specifically the national leagues, who end up being a championship of where 20 teams compete, but only 2 or 3 have realistic chances of winning the title.

Some of these teams are even WAY better than the best national teams on the planet, which is simply unimaginable if you ask someone who was following futebol back in the 80s or 90s.

That being said, an all-time list is fluid, like it should be... you have 11 players on a team, hundreds of teams playing the sport every year, dozens of new players coming in every year... just compare this sheer quantity to a league like the NBA, for example. Plus you have the difference between positions, how many defensive players apart from Beckenbauer have been put in a top 10 all-time list? It's very difficult.

[Stannis]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think this WC was probably more important for Mbappe's GOAT status. A win would have gotten him another World Cup and a Golden Ball. It's still very early, but France is likely favored for 2026. They were burdened with a bunch of injuries and illnesses this World Cup. But they still had insane amount of depth.

He's already won the World Cup at 2018.

I know his club honors are lacking compared to Messi. But he's still young.

But imagine if Mpabbe won this World Cup, and had a chance to win a third in a row? It'd be hard not to put him there with GOAT status even if he is missing some Champion League titles.

I feel his legacy would be comparable to Pele's (it stil lcan be). I'm not a Pele specialist, but I always thought Pele's legacy revolved around his time and accomplishments with the Brazil NT and not his clubs. This is where I feel Mpabbe's legacy is headed. He might not win CLs with PSG. But his international accomplishments will be next to none.

Messi's honors and accomplishments were mostly with Barca. Insane stats with consistency and longevity. I don't think he really needed this WC for GOAT status.

[HIF]

Football is a team game but glad to hear that Messi and a couple of friends beat Mbappe and a couple of his friends in the world cup final. Not sure why either team didn't put 11 players on the pitch as they are allowed to in the rules.

[Wallace_Wallace]

The sheer amount of trophies, individual accolades, and the numbers speak for itself.

[GSWFan1994]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think this WC was probably more important for Mbappe's GOAT status. A win would have gotten him another World Cup and a Golden Ball. It's still very early, but France is likely favored for 2026. They were burdened with a bunch of injuries and illnesses this World Cup. But they still had insane amount of depth.

He's already won the World Cup at 2018.

I know his club honors are lacking compared to Messi. But he's still young.

But imagine if Mpabbe won this World Cup, and had a chance to win a third in a row? It'd be hard not to put him there with GOAT status even if he is missing some Champion League titles.

I feel his legacy would be comparable to Pele's (it stil lcan be). I'm not a Pele specialist, but I always thought Pele's legacy revolved around his time and accomplishments with the Brazil NT and not his clubs. This is where I feel Mpabbe's legacy is headed. He might not win CLs with PSG. But his international accomplishments will be next to none.

Messi's honors and accomplishments were mostly with Barca. Insane stats with consistency and longevity. I don't think he really needed this WC for GOAT status.

I'll be not going to detail into the Messi stuff (already did that in the previous post), but did this post mostly to write about your Pelé part of the argument.

Pelé's accomplishments are not related only to the national team. His teams won everything they possibly could, even on the international scene at the time. And they were official tournaments, not only friendly matches I see people posting over the internet.

Pelé even had a season where he scored 100 goals in official matches. People stopped a war momentarily in Africa when Santos was there playing a couple of friendly matches. Just the tip of the iceberg.

I'd highly suggest you try to track a copy of Pelé's documentary, made in 2004 if I'm not mistaken, called "Pelé Eterno" (Pelé Forever), it's by far his best documentary.

I think Netflix did one too, a couple of years ago, but that sadly was too much politics-driven. They even put lots of left-wing politicians commenting during the doc, it's simply unbelievable. A similar thing would be Netflix doing a Michael Jordan doc, but putting Biden, Obama, AOC and dozens of other democratic party people to give their "testimony" during the movie. Regardless of your political ideology, there shouldn't be the right place for this.

Search around the internet for videos about the Ayrton Senna death's commotion caused in Brazil. Now multiply that by 100 and you'll have the true reaction to Pelé's legacy. As he is very ill (has cancer and was on the hospital during the WC), I'm fearing Pelé won't last much longer.

Just watch "Pelé Eterno" and get back at me.

[Stannis]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think this WC was probably more important for Mbappe's GOAT status. A win would have gotten him another World Cup and a Golden Ball. It's still very early, but France is likely favored for 2026. They were burdened with a bunch of injuries and illnesses this World Cup. But they still had insane amount of depth.

He's already won the World Cup at 2018.

I know his club honors are lacking compared to Messi. But he's still young.

But imagine if Mpabbe won this World Cup, and had a chance to win a third in a row? It'd be hard not to put him there with GOAT status even if he is missing some Champion League titles.

I feel his legacy would be comparable to Pele's (it stil lcan be). I'm not a Pele specialist, but I always thought Pele's legacy revolved around his time and accomplishments with the Brazil NT and not his clubs. This is where I feel Mpabbe's legacy is headed. He might not win CLs with PSG. But his international accomplishments will be next to none.

Messi's honors and accomplishments were mostly with Barca. Insane stats with consistency and longevity. I don't think he really needed this WC for GOAT status.

I'll be not going to detail into the Messi stuff (already did that in the previous post), but did this post mostly to write about your Pelé part of the argument.

Pelé's accomplishments are not related only to the national team. His teams won everything they possibly could, even on the international scene at the time. And they were official tournaments, not only friendly matches I see people posting over the internet.

Pelé even had a season where he scored 100 goals in official matches. People stopped a war momentarily in Africa when Santos was there playing a couple of friendly matches. Just the tip of the iceberg.

I'd highly suggest you try to track a copy of Pelé's documentary, made in 2004 if I'm not mistaken, called "Pelé Eterno" (Pelé Forever), it's by far his best documentary.

I think Netflix did one too, a couple of years ago, but that sadly was too much politics-driven. They even put lots of left-wing politicians commenting during the doc, it's simply unbelievable. A similar thing would be Netflix doing a Michael Jordan doc, but putting Biden, Obama, AOC and dozens of other democratic party people to give their "testimony" during the movie. Regardless of your political ideology, there shouldn't be the right place for this.

Search around the internet for videos about the Ayrton Senna death's commotion caused in Brazil. Now multiply that by 100 and you'll have the true reaction to Pelé's legacy. As he is very ill (has cancer and was on the hospital during the WC), I'm fearing Pelé won't last much longer.

Just watch "Pelé Eterno" and get back at me.

Will do. Looks like it's on Amazon Prime so I'm going to give that a watch for sure.

I should have worded it better. I'm probably still wrong anyways.... But what I meant to say/ask is while still having a good club career, Pele's focal point was his national team career? For people who consider him the GOAT, isn't it his his national team accolades and performances that put him over the hump?

Like I said in my original post, I'm not a Pele-specialist. But just read about him. My dad was a big fan and always talked about him. But it was mostly about his time with the Brazil National Team.

For Messi, I think it's definitely the other way around. Most of his highlights and accolades are from his club career. For the people who think he's the GOAT, this is where they are looking at. And this is the part of his career they are talking about the most.

[Sedale Threatt]

Pele's goal totals have to be taken with a massive, massive grain of salt. Not that he wasn't obviously one of the very, very best scorers/players of all time. Wikipedia has him down for 762 goals in official matches (including national team), which is insane, and good for third place all-time behind you-know-whos. But the stuff like the 127 goals in a season, the overwhelming majority of those have to have taken place in exhibition matches. I don't know how other nations view those, but we look at them in the U.S. as glorified practices and don't account for them at all historically.

[Tracymcgoaty]

People keep talking about Pele but Garrincha was arguably just as beloved as Pele. People are mythologizing Pele as if he was the lone man for that Brazilian team lol.

In WC 58 Garrincha was dominant helping lead Brazil to their first WC trophy against Sweden in the finals with two assists.

and in 62 Pele played like 1 game in the WC and got injured. Brazil went on to win the WC without him with Garrincha being the tip of the spear scoring 4 goals in the tournament .

And in 1970 that Brazil squad is arguably one of the greatest squads ever assembled in the history of international football.

Pele has always played with greatness. Thats why people remember Maradona 86 more than any of Pele's trophies. Because without Maradona they wouldn't win. Brazil won without Pele because of the ridiculous talent level produced.

Seriously go look up the 1970 Brazil squad. I think they went undefeated in the 1970's WC.

And i seriously advice people to look up Garrincha who imo is far more interesting than Pele. I find it funny hearing people who've said they watched Pele play and never mention Garrincha even once. Im not even 30 but i've watched hours upon hours of highlights of the Brazil national team and their players and what i've come away with is that Garrincha was just as good if not better on the international level.

Difference between Pele and Garrincha is that Pele was the ideal man to market. Pele was the Lebron of his era. No drinking,good husband and a model citizen from what i've read. So A+ marketability.

Garrincha lost his virginity to a **** goat....Need i go on? And on top of that he was an alcoholic and quoted by a doctor to have the intelligence of a 7 year old. But when he got on that field none of that mattered. Some people are just born into it.

The story of Garrincha is arguably one of the saddest stories i've ever seen and read. Remember watching a documentary on him years ago. How his story ends is a tragedy.

I implore people to watch his highlights on youtube and see just how far ahead of his time he really was. Dude did whatever he wanted to whoever he wanted on that field.

Watch on YouTube

Here is the documentary. 30 min that will fly by. After that watch Garrincha highlights!

[big-shot-ROB]

How is this a debate when arguably the greatest assister, goal-scorer and dribbler are the same exact person?

[Tracymcgoaty]

Another personal for me i put in my GOAT list is Magico Gonzalez. What this dude did with the ball people aren't even doing now. But like Garrincha liked the bottle a little bit too much. An utterly fascinating character and i guarantee you if you watch one highlight video of him you'll be baffled as to why he isn't more well known. This man is probably my personal favorite. For the mere fact that he hated treating football as a job. Look up mini documentaries about him it's hilarious and very interesting. Maradona called him the best he's ever seen.

Watch on YouTube

[Hoopstar23]

People keep talking about Pele but Garrincha was arguably just as beloved as Pele. People are mythologizing Pele as if he was the lone man for that Brazilian team lol.

In WC 58 Garrincha was dominant helping lead Brazil to their first WC trophy against Sweden in the finals with two assists.

and in 62 Pele played like 1 game in the WC and got injured. Brazil went on to win the WC without him with Garrincha being the tip of the spear scoring 4 goals in the tournament .

And in 1970 that Brazil squad is arguably one of the greatest squads ever assembled in the history of international football.

Pele has always played with greatness. Thats why people remember Maradona 86 more than any of Pele's trophies. Because without Maradona they wouldn't win. Brazil won without Pele because of the ridiculous talent level produced.

Seriously go look up the 1970 Brazil squad. I think they went undefeated in the 1970's WC.

And i seriously advice people to look up Garrincha who imo is far more interesting than Pele. I find it funny hearing people who've said they watched Pele play and never mention Garrincha even once. Im not even 30 but i've watched hours upon hours of highlights of the Brazil national team and their players and what i've come away with is that Garrincha was just as good if not better on the international level.

Difference between Pele and Garrincha is that Pele was the ideal man to market. Pele was the Lebron of his era. No drinking,good husband and a model citizen from what i've read. So A+ marketability.

Garrincha lost his virginity to a **** goat....Need i go on? And on top of that he was an alcoholic and quoted by a doctor to have the intelligence of a 7 year old. But when he got on that field none of that mattered. Some people are just born into it.

The story of Garrincha is arguably one of the saddest stories i've ever seen and read. Remember watching a documentary on him years ago. How his story ends is a tragedy.

I implore people to watch his highlights on youtube and see just how far ahead of his time he really was. Dude did whatever he wanted to whoever he wanted on that field.

Watch on YouTube

Here is the documentary. 30 min that will fly by. After that watch Garrincha highlights!

your saying some real ****, Garrincha is arguably a top 10-15 player of all time!

[GSWFan1994]

Pele's goal totals have to be taken with a massive, massive grain of salt. Not that he wasn't obviously one of the very, very best scorers/players of all time. Wikipedia has him down for 762 goals in official matches (including national team), which is insane, and good for third place all-time behind you-know-whos. But the stuff like the 127 goals in a season, the overwhelming majority of those have to have taken place in exhibition matches. I don't know how other nations view those, but we look at them in the U.S. as glorified practices and don't account for them at all historically.

Yes, I know that. The funny is that is that IFFHS' calculation has surged only in the past 15/20 years... I don't recall Pelé's amount of goals being an issue in the mid/late 90's, or even in the early 00's.

The number varies from roughly 800, up to roughly 1300 goals.

The main problem with this, from my point of view, is how you determine what an exhibition match is. I mean, a friendly match is still an OFFICIAL match, it just isn't considered part of a tournament.

I mean, if you put, back in the 60's, Santos playing with Real Madrid (as they actually did), with official rules, official refs, pro players, but not taking part into any tournament... should you count the goals? In my eyes, yes it should count. Because if don't count for him, you shouldn't have count for Messi when, say, Argentina plays a friendly with Honduras, or when Barcelona plays a friendly with some team in the 3rd division of Russia, for example.

Back until the 90's I believe, the futebol calendar was as stabilized as it is nowadays. Santos usually played in the state championship in the first half of the year, then player in the national championship in the 2nd half, and did exhibitions and tours all in the middle of this. So you add it all together and there's a great chance that Pelé played in more than 100 matches in a single year. My point is, there were lots of matches played per year back then.

Now if you take a look at his goal/match ratio, and also that he was in his prime, it's definitely possible he had more than 100 goals in one single year. Heck, he had 58 goals only in the 1958 edition of the state championship.

Personally, I think Pelé's goals range from 1,100 to 1,150, based on what I've read, watched, heard from others throughout the years.

Please watch "Pelé Eterno" (Pelé Forever)... you'll be very surprised and amazed by what he achieved. The sheer amount of footage they discovered in that doc is unbelievable.

While I'm at it, just 2 quick videos for you guys to enjoy...

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Plus, Pelé was hunted in the field. Basically missed 2 WCs (1962/1966) because of it. The rules were different back then.

Read on Twitter

[GSWFan1994]

People keep talking about Pele but Garrincha was arguably just as beloved as Pele. People are mythologizing Pele as if he was the lone man for that Brazilian team lol.

In WC 58 Garrincha was dominant helping lead Brazil to their first WC trophy against Sweden in the finals with two assists.

and in 62 Pele played like 1 game in the WC and got injured. Brazil went on to win the WC without him with Garrincha being the tip of the spear scoring 4 goals in the tournament .

And in 1970 that Brazil squad is arguably one of the greatest squads ever assembled in the history of international football.

Pele has always played with greatness. Thats why people remember Maradona 86 more than any of Pele's trophies. Because without Maradona they wouldn't win. Brazil won without Pele because of the ridiculous talent level produced.

Seriously go look up the 1970 Brazil squad. I think they went undefeated in the 1970's WC.

And i seriously advice people to look up Garrincha who imo is far more interesting than Pele. I find it funny hearing people who've said they watched Pele play and never mention Garrincha even once. Im not even 30 but i've watched hours upon hours of highlights of the Brazil national team and their players and what i've come away with is that Garrincha was just as good if not better on the international level.

Difference between Pele and Garrincha is that Pele was the ideal man to market. Pele was the Lebron of his era. No drinking,good husband and a model citizen from what i've read. So A+ marketability.

Garrincha lost his virginity to a **** goat....Need i go on? And on top of that he was an alcoholic and quoted by a doctor to have the intelligence of a 7 year old. But when he got on that field none of that mattered. Some people are just born into it.

The story of Garrincha is arguably one of the saddest stories i've ever seen and read. Remember watching a documentary on him years ago. How his story ends is a tragedy.

I implore people to watch his highlights on youtube and see just how far ahead of his time he really was. Dude did whatever he wanted to whoever he wanted on that field.

Watch on YouTube

Here is the documentary. 30 min that will fly by. After that watch Garrincha highlights!

Pelé played with many great players, but make no mistake about it, he was far and away the best of them.

You know who has become hugely underrated over time? Didi. He played with Garrincha on Botafogo. Central midfielder. I posted about him on the WC thread. I'm surprised that you said you watched countless hours of footage but didn't even mention Didi, lol.

Didi is a certifiable top 10 brazilian player of all-time IMO. Garrincha is too, obviously, but many have since passed him then (Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Romário, Ronaldinho, etc)... I'd say Garrincha would be around 7/8th best. Here's a list of the best brazilian players ever, but please bear in mind it was published in 1999.

The problem with Garrincha is that he didn't play so much... his career was strongly weakened by him being an alcoholic in his playing days... of course he was great while in his prime, absolutely fantastic peak too.

Didi was the best player of the 1958 WC and, along with Pelé, Garrincha and Nílton Santos (Brazil's left forward) was elected to the All-tournament team. Didi had that timeless moment in the final match when, after Sweden scored the 1st goal, he went to get the ball, picked it up and calmly, slowly walked to the midfield to restart the match, leading Brazil to the win. You can find this moment easily on any Didi video on YT. He was the inventor of the "dry leaf" free kick and the "3 toe" pass too.

(Just a small parenthesis: lots of people assume Cafu and Roberto Carlos were the best forwards in Brazil's history, but many people still think Nílton Santos (nicknamed "The Encyclopedia of Futebol" here) and Djalma Santos were the best)... just leaving this link for you guys to check (amazing site too, BTW).

Back to Garrincha: one of his nicknames was "Mané" (for "Manuel"). Also, "Garrincha" wasn't his actual name, it was based on a bird he used to like as a child. He was also nicknamed "o Anjo das Pernas Tortas" (The Angel of Bent Legs) here in Brazil. He was born this way. Here is a pic of his legs:


(Djalma Santos, Dudu, Garrincha)

In the mid 90's there was released a great biography by author Ruy Castro on Garrincha, called "A Estrela Solitária" (The Lonely Star). I don't know if there's an english version of this book. A movie was also made in 2003, with the same name, though I don't recommend it, it doesn't show anything of what he did in the field, focusing only in his troubled private life.

However, a documentary was made in 1963 about him, called "Garrincha: Alegria do Povo" (Garrincha: Joy of the People). This one is very recommended, don't miss it!

All in all, I believe Garrincha is a top 30/35 player in the history of futebol. Many have since surpassed him.

Finally, a trivia for you all: when both Pelé and Garrincha played for Brazil, the team NEVER lost.

As for other points of your posts: Pelé was definitely greater than Maradona. Played a lot more years, scored more (I think Maradona didn't reach 400 goals?), won more and, most importantly, dominated his competition outside of the national team too.

Pelé inspired many people but, he was not saint either. There is a very well-know history here in Brazil that was the following: Pelé had a child in an affair with a poor black woman, she was a house cleaner, back in 1964. If I'm not mistaken, he was already married at that time. He didn't recognize the child, even after a DNA test (in 1996). After accepting the judge's sentence, Pelé said he STILL didn't want anything with her, because he didn't have any feelings for her, and obviously didn't give any financial support through the years. Come on man, cold as ****!

The sad thing, and what makes me not like Pelé as a person (despite loving him very much as a player), is that, back in 2014, Sandra (the child's name) got cancer. She was terminally ill. In her death bed, she asked for him to recognize her as his daughter. He didn't, and she died.

That breaks my heart.

[Sedale Threatt]

Pele's goal totals have to be taken with a massive, massive grain of salt. Not that he wasn't obviously one of the very, very best scorers/players of all time. Wikipedia has him down for 762 goals in official matches (including national team), which is insane, and good for third place all-time behind you-know-whos. But the stuff like the 127 goals in a season, the overwhelming majority of those have to have taken place in exhibition matches. I don't know how other nations view those, but we look at them in the U.S. as glorified practices and don't account for them at all historically.

Yes, I know that. The funny is that is that IFFHS' calculation has surged only in the past 15/20 years... I don't recall Pelé's amount of goals being an issue in the mid/late 90's, or even in the early 00's.

The number varies from roughly 800, up to roughly 1300 goals.

The main problem with this, from my point of view, is how you determine what an exhibition match is. I mean, a friendly match is still an OFFICIAL match, it just isn't considered part of a tournament.

I mean, if you put, back in the 60's, Santos playing with Real Madrid (as they actually did), with official rules, official refs, pro players, but not taking part into any tournament... should you count the goals? In my eyes, yes it should count. Because if don't count for him, you shouldn't have count for Messi when, say, Argentina plays a friendly with Honduras, or when Barcelona plays a friendly with some team in the 3rd division of Russia, for example.

Back until the 90's I believe, the futebol calendar was as stabilized as it is nowadays. Santos usually played in the state championship in the first half of the year, then player in the national championship in the 2nd half, and did exhibitions and tours all in the middle of this. So you add it all together and there's a great chance that Pelé played in more than 100 matches in a single year. My point is, there were lots of matches played per year back then.

Now if you take a look at his goal/match ratio, and also that he was in his prime, it's definitely possible he had more than 100 goals in one single year. Heck, he had 58 goals only in the 1958 edition of the state championship.

Personally, I think Pelé's goals range from 1,100 to 1,150, based on what I've read, watched, heard from others throughout the years.

Please watch "Pelé Eterno" (Pelé Forever)... you'll be very surprised and amazed by what he achieved. The sheer amount of footage they discovered in that doc is unbelievable.

While I'm at it, just 2 quick videos for you guys to enjoy...

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Plus, Pelé was hunted in the field. Basically missed 2 WCs (1962/1966) because of it. The rules were different back then.

Read on Twitter

At the end of the day he was an alien. Usually when you watch older footage, players are very much products of their era. But in rare instances you can easily see certain athletes dropping right into current day without a hitch and dominating. Pele was certainly one of them. His explosiveness leaps off the screen. I haven't watched one of his highlight reels in a while but the thing that stood out to me was his shot. He got so much power and velocity on it. And that's pure technique, before you even get into his ridiculous physical skills. So I'm definitely not taking anything away from him. He's a true legend.

It's just that, when records have been so poorly kept from so long ago, it's hard to take some of the feats and accomplishments completely seriously. Wilt Chamberlain being a textbook example, where many of the stories are more apocryphal BS based on kernels of truth than actual fact. So to me, those European barnstorming tours don't do much for me. It's just not the same level of competition. (National team friendlies aren't the same thing in my eyes.) I'm sure there are tons and tons and debates about that, but that's just how I personally feel.

EDIT: And the thing is, if you limit his total to just international and league/cup club matches, he's still sitting at more than 700 goals, which is one of the four or five highest totals of all time. That is an impressive feat in and of itself.

[Tracymcgoaty]

People keep talking about Pele but Garrincha was arguably just as beloved as Pele. People are mythologizing Pele as if he was the lone man for that Brazilian team lol.

In WC 58 Garrincha was dominant helping lead Brazil to their first WC trophy against Sweden in the finals with two assists.

and in 62 Pele played like 1 game in the WC and got injured. Brazil went on to win the WC without him with Garrincha being the tip of the spear scoring 4 goals in the tournament .

And in 1970 that Brazil squad is arguably one of the greatest squads ever assembled in the history of international football.

Pele has always played with greatness. Thats why people remember Maradona 86 more than any of Pele's trophies. Because without Maradona they wouldn't win. Brazil won without Pele because of the ridiculous talent level produced.

Seriously go look up the 1970 Brazil squad. I think they went undefeated in the 1970's WC.

And i seriously advice people to look up Garrincha who imo is far more interesting than Pele. I find it funny hearing people who've said they watched Pele play and never mention Garrincha even once. Im not even 30 but i've watched hours upon hours of highlights of the Brazil national team and their players and what i've come away with is that Garrincha was just as good if not better on the international level.

Difference between Pele and Garrincha is that Pele was the ideal man to market. Pele was the Lebron of his era. No drinking,good husband and a model citizen from what i've read. So A+ marketability.

Garrincha lost his virginity to a **** goat....Need i go on? And on top of that he was an alcoholic and quoted by a doctor to have the intelligence of a 7 year old. But when he got on that field none of that mattered. Some people are just born into it.

The story of Garrincha is arguably one of the saddest stories i've ever seen and read. Remember watching a documentary on him years ago. How his story ends is a tragedy.

I implore people to watch his highlights on youtube and see just how far ahead of his time he really was. Dude did whatever he wanted to whoever he wanted on that field.

Watch on YouTube

Here is the documentary. 30 min that will fly by. After that watch Garrincha highlights!

Pelé played with many great players, but make no mistake about it, he was far and away the best of them.

You know who has become hugely underrated over time? Didi. He played with Garrincha on Botafogo. Central midfielder. I posted about him on the WC thread. I'm surprised that you said you watched countless hours of footage but didn't even mention Didi, lol.

Didi is a certifiable top 10 brazilian player of all-time IMO. Garrincha is too, obviously, but many have since passed him then (Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Romário, Ronaldinho, etc)... I'd say Garrincha would be around 7/8th best. Here's a list of the best brazilian players ever, but please bear in mind it was published in 1999.

The problem with Garrincha is that he didn't play so much... his career was strongly weakened by him being an alcoholic in his playing days... of course he was great while in his prime, absolutely fantastic peak too.

Didi was the best player of the 1958 WC and, along with Pelé, Garrincha and Nílton Santos (Brazil's left forward) was elected to the All-tournament team. Didi had that timeless moment in the final match when, after Sweden scored the 1st goal, he went to get the ball, picked it up and calmly, slowly walked to the midfield to restart the match, leading Brazil to the win. You can find this moment easily on any Didi video on YT. He was the inventor of the "dry leaf" free kick and the "3 toe" pass too.

(Just a small parenthesis: lots of people assume Cafu and Roberto Carlos were the best forwards in Brazil's history, but many people still think Nílton Santos (nicknamed "The Encyclopedia of Futebol" here) and Djalma Santos were the best)... just leaving this link for you guys to check (amazing site too, BTW).

Back to Garrincha: one of his nicknames was "Mané" (for "Manuel"). Also, "Garrincha" wasn't his actual name, it was based on a bird he used to like as a child. He was also nicknamed "o Anjo das Pernas Tortas" (The Angel of Bent Legs) here in Brazil. He was born this way. Here is a pic of his legs:


(Djalma Santos, Dudu, Garrincha)

In the mid 90's there was released a great biography by author Ruy Castro on Garrincha, called "A Estrela Solitária" (The Lonely Star). I don't know if there's an english version of this book. A movie was also made in 2003, with the same name, though I don't recommend it, it doesn't show anything of what he did in the field, focusing only in his troubled private life.

However, a documentary was made in 1963 about him, called "Garrincha: Alegria do Povo" (Garrincha: Joy of the People). This one is very recommended, don't miss it!

All in all, I believe Garrincha is a top 30/35 player in the history of futebol. Many have since surpassed him.

Finally, a trivia for you all: when both Pelé and Garrincha played for Brazil, the team NEVER lost.

As for other points of your posts: Pelé was definitely greater than Maradona. Played a lot more years, scored more (I think Maradona didn't reach 400 goals?), won more and, most importantly, dominated his competition outside of the national team too.

Pelé inspired many people but, he was not saint either. There is a very well-know history here in Brazil that was the following: Pelé had a child in an affair with a poor black woman, she was a house cleaner, back in 1964. If I'm not mistaken, he was already married at that time. He didn't recognize the child, even after a DNA test (in 1996). After accepting the judge's sentence, Pelé said he STILL didn't want anything with her, because he didn't have any feelings for her, and obviously didn't give any financial support through the years. Come on man, cold as ****!

The sad thing, and what makes me not like Pelé as a person (despite loving him very much as a player), is that, back in 2014, Sandra (the child's name) got cancer. She was terminally ill. In her death bed, she asked for him to recognize her as his daughter. He didn't, and she died.

That breaks my heart.

Thanks for the history dude! I actually read about Djalma Santos from a book my brother had as a kid It went through some of the greatest players throughout the history of football. Djalma Santos was in there.

Yeah the history of Garrincha i watched in the documentary i posted in my previous post. Pele and other former brazilian players are in the documentary. Pele himself said Garrincha was the greatest player he ever saw at that position. It's a grear documentary.

I knew Pele always played with great players. Garrincha for me having watched hours of his highlights was the most notable for me. As much outside the field as on. But it's like you said. He had an affinity for alcohol and having a knee injury i believe that led to his downfall if im not wrong. But i always loved watching Garrincha highlights back in the days. Very inspirational in how far ahead he was. I'd go as far as to say wingers have regressed in that they rarely try to attack their defenders anymore.

[Tracymcgoaty]

Pele's goal totals have to be taken with a massive, massive grain of salt. Not that he wasn't obviously one of the very, very best scorers/players of all time. Wikipedia has him down for 762 goals in official matches (including national team), which is insane, and good for third place all-time behind you-know-whos. But the stuff like the 127 goals in a season, the overwhelming majority of those have to have taken place in exhibition matches. I don't know how other nations view those, but we look at them in the U.S. as glorified practices and don't account for them at all historically.

Yes, I know that. The funny is that is that IFFHS' calculation has surged only in the past 15/20 years... I don't recall Pelé's amount of goals being an issue in the mid/late 90's, or even in the early 00's.

The number varies from roughly 800, up to roughly 1300 goals.

The main problem with this, from my point of view, is how you determine what an exhibition match is. I mean, a friendly match is still an OFFICIAL match, it just isn't considered part of a tournament.

I mean, if you put, back in the 60's, Santos playing with Real Madrid (as they actually did), with official rules, official refs, pro players, but not taking part into any tournament... should you count the goals? In my eyes, yes it should count. Because if don't count for him, you shouldn't have count for Messi when, say, Argentina plays a friendly with Honduras, or when Barcelona plays a friendly with some team in the 3rd division of Russia, for example.

Back until the 90's I believe, the futebol calendar was as stabilized as it is nowadays. Santos usually played in the state championship in the first half of the year, then player in the national championship in the 2nd half, and did exhibitions and tours all in the middle of this. So you add it all together and there's a great chance that Pelé played in more than 100 matches in a single year. My point is, there were lots of matches played per year back then.

Now if you take a look at his goal/match ratio, and also that he was in his prime, it's definitely possible he had more than 100 goals in one single year. Heck, he had 58 goals only in the 1958 edition of the state championship.

Personally, I think Pelé's goals range from 1,100 to 1,150, based on what I've read, watched, heard from others throughout the years.

Please watch "Pelé Eterno" (Pelé Forever)... you'll be very surprised and amazed by what he achieved. The sheer amount of footage they discovered in that doc is unbelievable.

While I'm at it, just 2 quick videos for you guys to enjoy...

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Plus, Pelé was hunted in the field. Basically missed 2 WCs (1962/1966) because of it. The rules were different back then.

Read on Twitter

At the end of the day he was an alien. Usually when you watch older footage, players are very much products of their era. But in rare instances you can easily see certain athletes dropping right into current day without a hitch and dominating. Pele was certainly one of them. His explosiveness leaps off the screen. I haven't watched one of his highlight reels in a while but the thing that stood out to me was his shot. He got so much power and velocity on it. And that's pure technique, before you even get into his ridiculous physical skills. So I'm definitely not taking anything away from him. He's a true legend.

It's just that, when records have been so poorly kept from so long ago, it's hard to take some of the feats and accomplishments completely seriously. Wilt Chamberlain being a textbook example, where many of the stories are more apocryphal BS based on kernels of truth than actual fact. So to me, those European barnstorming tours don't do much for me. It's just not the same level of competition. (National team friendlies aren't the same thing in my eyes.) I'm sure there are tons and tons and debates about that, but that's just how I personally feel.

EDIT: And the thing is, if you limit his total to just international and league/cup club matches, he's still sitting at more than 700 goals, which is one of the four or five highest totals of all time. That is an impressive feat in and of itself.

Some of those comparisons in the video is ridiculous imo lol. Messi scored a free kick look Pele did it as well. The Carlos free kick against france and then panning to some Pele free kick as if those two shots are remotely similar. Carlos free kick was arguably the most impossible free kick ever scored in my opinion. But Pele like Garrincha and a plethora of other players were far ahead of their time. No doubt they'd still be great in any era.

But if you seriously want to see someone who was a wizard and an alien El Magico Gonzalez is the one.

Watch on YouTube

To this day i watch these highlights and am baffled at this mans wizardry with the ball. This is in the 80s and he's doing things professional players cant do today.

Like look at the first play he does in the video. How in the **** did he get the ball so high doing an elastico? I believe Maradona even said he's the greatest player he ever saw. Even convinced his coach to bring him to Barcelona. Too bad Jorge never gave two craps about being professional and opted to sleep instead of going with the team on tour

I believe there is a famous quote from him which encapsulates everything about the man. ''Football for me is not work, work is doing what you don’t like and I enjoy football'' And with that in mind everything makes sense in how he truly didn't give a crap about the professional part of football. And it truly showed in how he played the game. I'd pay to watch Jorge play ahead of any other player in history of football. It would have been the best money ever spent.

[Rust_Cohle]

It was over before this WC and it was always Messi.

At CR7 fans will be quiet forever now.

Hell of a world cup, will feel anti climactic going back to club football now.

[Gregoire]

Career:
Pele
Messi
Cristiano

Peak
Pele
Messi
Maradona

[Jfh20]

Hilarious… how does this guy even have a goat argument? he scored 7 goals, 4 of them were gifted penalties and the one in the final was not a pen… fifa needed this guy to win for Qatar to give them bonuses… more rigged World Cup I ever seen. Brazilian Ronaldo is da goat. he didn’t need gifted pens from fifa to win a wc

[Jfh20]

Hilarious… how does this guy even have a goat argument? he scored 7 goals, 4 of them were gifted penalties and the one in the final was not a pen… fifa needed this guy to win for Qatar to give them bonuses… more rigged World Cup I ever seen. Brazilian Ronaldo is da goat. he didn’t need gifted pens from fifa to win a wc