Is the GOAT debate over ?

Kingdibs19 · Post #1 » by **Kingdibs19** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:22 pm

I think we can all agree Messi has solidified his GOAT status now yes ?

clyde21 · Post #2 » by **clyde21** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:23 pm

not necessarily a 'Messi guy' here but I'd say yes, it's over.

Post #3 » by **Baphomet** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:31 pm

The debate is never over. Adding the World Cup to his resume is obviously a huge boon and helps his legacy a lot in the eyes of fans, but realistically the seven games he's played in this tournament have very little actual bearing on his ability as a footballer. That legacy was already set in the near thousand matches he played prior and his overall body of work on the pitch. If he's the GOAT now, he was the GOAT before the tournament even started.

If Martinez hadn't been great in these penalty shootouts in the knockout phase and Argentina were eliminated earlier, people would be saying the opposite and that Messi "choked" or whatever other nonsense narrative some people like to tout, when his goalkeeper's performance has basically nothing to do with him. Football is a team sport with more variables than most, it always has been and always will be, and that's why the GOAT debate will never be conclusive.

Tracymcgoaty · Post #4 » by **Tracymcgoaty** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:08 pm

GOAT talk has always been subjective across all sports. Debate will never be over. You'll have some dude coming in saying that he saw Pele play and nobody comes close. Another dude coming in saying Maradona 86 and those two napoli titles.

Some dude saying Cristiano. Some dude saying Messi etc etc etc.

SgtPepper · Post #5 » by **SgtPepper** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:10 pm

Objectively no. But to the narrative-driven majority of people it will be.

jc23 · Post #6 » by **jc23** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:10 pm

Tracymcgoaty wrote:GOAT talk has always been subjective across all sports. Debate will never be over. You'll have some dude coming in saying that he saw Pele play and nobody comes close. Another dude coming in saying Maradona 86 and those two napoli titles.

Some dude saying Cristiano. Some dude saying Messi etc etc etc.

When you were born plays a huge factor in these debates.

ForeverTFC · Post #7 » by **ForeverTFC** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:11 pm

He's the GOAT and he solidified it.

CR7 fans need to stop inserting him into this conversation when he's a clear third behind Maradona at 2. Mbappe will overtake him for 3rd when his career is over.

GeorgeSears · Post #8 » by **GeorgeSears** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:37 pm

Messi is certainly the greatest I've ever seen. Mbappe has an opportunity to surpass him, but he'll need to start performing at the club level to catch up to him. He's got a chance to do it, I'm just not sure it's with PSG.

Tracymcgoaty · Post #9 » by **Tracymcgoaty** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:38 pm

GeorgeSears wrote:Messi is certainly the greatest I've ever seen. Mbappe has an opportunity to surpass him, but he'll need to start performing at the club level to catch up to him. He's got a chance to do it, I'm just not sure it's with PSG.

Mbappe really needs to leave PSG to further his legacy imo. Unless he wins 2-3 UCL with that team. They have a good chance of doing it this season. Will be fun seeing the dynamic between the three stars after the WC lol.

GeorgeSears · Post #10 » by **GeorgeSears** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:42 pm

Tracymcgoaty wrote:
GeorgeSears wrote:Messi is certainly the greatest I've ever seen. Mbappe has an opportunity to surpass him, but he'll need to start performing at the club level to catch up to him. He's got a chance to do it, I'm just not sure it's with PSG.

Mbappe really needs to leave PSG to further his legacy imo. Unless he wins 2-3 UCL with that team. They have a good chance of doing it this season. Will be fun seeing the dynamic between the three stars after the WC lol.

I don't see them doing it this year. They drew Bayern, which is just a horrible matchup.

The trio of Messi, Neymar, and Mbappe just doesn't work imo because none of them are willing to press. Messi's 35 so I don't expect him to run hard anymore, but Neymar also walks most of the time and Mbappe does as well.

It's just not a winning trio, despite the talent.

PintSizedBox10 · Post #11 » by **PintSizedBox10** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:49 pm

Stannis · Post #12 » by **Stannis** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:28 pm

Baphomet wrote:The debate is never over. Adding the World Cup to his resume is obviously a huge boon and helps his legacy a lot in the eyes of fans, but realistically the seven games he's played in this tournament have very little actual bearing on his ability as a footballer. That legacy was already set in the near thousand matches he played prior and his overall body of work on the pitch. If he's the GOAT now, he was the GOAT before the tournament even started.

If Martinez hadn't been great in these penalty shootouts in the knockout phase and Argentina were eliminated earlier, people would be saying the opposite and that Messi "choked" or whatever other nonsense narrative some people like to tout, when his goalkeeper's performance has basically nothing to do with him. Football is a team sport with more variables than most, it always has been and always will be, and that's why the GOAT debate will never be conclusive.

Good post. Really tells you how BS all these narratives were these last several years lol.

Makes no sense to say Messi was or wasn't the GOAT depending on the results of a shootout.

Anyways, if I'm Messi, I'm probably mostly happy to win my country the cup. And I'll let my club resume speak for itself.

Pharmcat · Post #13 » by **Pharmcat** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:12 pm

krikor · Post #14 » by **krikor** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:14 pm

Brazilian Ronaldo (two world cups) or Mbappe ( 1 world cup ) for me is GOAT. Followed by Messi.

Of course, you can do the NBA talk about who has more world cups and say Pele ( 3). But I am saying based on my eyes, and i love players who are super fast ala Brazilian Ronaldo and Mbappe.

Stannis · Post #15 » by **Stannis** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:27 pm

lol, so my little cousin back in Albania is a big CR7 fan and was going for France this game because he didn't want Messi to get a World Cup.

These are the kinda people I think flood Twitter.

That being said, next time I go back, I'm definitely trolling the crap out of that little munchkin.

big-shot-ROB · Post #16 » by **big-shot-ROB** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:54 pm

SgtPepper wrote:Objectively no. But to the narrative-driven majority of people it will be.

lol

KGtabake · Post #17 » by **KGtabake** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:15 pm

The only debate that's over is the Messi vs Cristiano.
For me it was never one to begin with but lots of people had talks about it.

Now for GOAT...you have to take into account that Maradona was bigger than the sport itself for almost a decade.
Like MJ was for bball and Ali was for boxing.
These guys were not just athletes.
Maradona was such a personality that even the Pope or Fidel Castro wanted to meet with him.

If you prioritise stats and trophies then yes, it's over.

I'm so happy for Messi and I'm not the only one.

Stannis · Post #18 » by **Stannis** » Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:01 am

I think this World Cup for Messi is partially a "relief" for him. Something his resume was always missing, and now he's got it. But most importantly, he can finally say "I finally got to bring Argentina a WC". In the end, that's what the WC is about. Your country, not your legacy.

Messi has almost 2 decades of club football to speak for his legacy.

If Messi was on the cusp of being the GOAT before this WC, I honestly don't know how this WC solidified him as the GOAT or didn't if Argentina lost.

Listen, I thought he was the GOAT before this. I'm just saying, for some reason... the narrative was that he HAD to get a WC. But his performance along with Argentina's wasn't really that decisive and impressive in this run. Lot of luck involved. 2 Penalty Shootout wins. Like Baphomet mentioned, if one thing doesn't go Argentina's way... like the Martinez save, a missed PK, or whatever... All the sudden he isn't the GOAT?

Nah, that doesn't make sense to me.

Mamba81p · Post #19 » by **Mamba81p** » Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:13 am

krikor wrote:Brazilian Ronaldo (two world cups) or Mbappe ( 1 world cup ) for me is GOAT. Followed by Messi.

Of course, you can do the NBA talk about who has more world cups and say Pele ( 3). But I am saying based on my eyes, and i love players who are super fast ala Brazilian Ronaldo and Mbappe.

Ronaldo didn't play in '94 World Cup. He was a bench warmer.
Pele was injured in the second game in '62 World Cup.

maradro · Post #20 » by **maradro** » Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:22 am

Mamba81p wrote:
krikor wrote:Brazilian Ronaldo (two world cups) or Mbappe ( 1 world cup ) for me is GOAT. Followed by Messi.

Of course, you can do the NBA talk about who has more world cups and say Pele ( 3). But I am saying based on my eyes, and i love players who are super fast ala Brazilian Ronaldo and Mbappe.

Ronaldo didn't play in '94 World Cup. He was a bench warmer.
Pele was injured in the second game in '62 World Cup.

Pele didn't even play 12 full games through those 3 titles.. he's practically Olympics Melo though he was definitely the best player for the '70 team, even then it's hard to say that team couldn't win without him

But people want to say Messi's WC title doesn't mean much because penalty shootouts... Should we adjust every star's legacy and discount the titles won with penalty shootouts (or questionable calls), or do those caveats only apply to Messi?? Because like the NBA playoffs i can put asterisks on over half of any players titles, it's ridiculous to imply that Messi didn't have a great world cup, better than any of his previous campaigns