2023-24 German Bundesliga Discussion Thread

[MetalFingaz]

Haven't been following the DFL investor deal thing closely but it seems like a lot of protest in today's games. Curious for your thoughts on what's going on, Foye and Luke.

[MetalFingaz]

Bayern are inept.

[Foye]

It's definitely a foul, skeptical it should be a penalty since the odds of that becoming a goal whether or not the first defender interferes is very low given the shot choice. Reminded me of Inter in the UCL final. Header shots are low conversion and overused. Guy should have headed it towards his foot to power it in.

If it is a foul it is a penalty regardless of if the shot was gonna go anywhere near the goal or not.


Gesendet von iPhone mit RealGM Forums

[Foye]

Haven't been following the DFL investor deal thing closely but it seems like a lot of protest in today's games. Curious for your thoughts on what's going on, Foye and Luke.

Fans are right.

League and clubs want to make a quick million or two by selling a percentage of future tv money for the next xx years. Kinda what almost bankrupt Barcelona is doing but on a league wide basis.

It will only cement the current status quo (given that the money is handed out based on current standings).

In 3 years the majority of clubs will have used the money to overspend on mediocre players and they‘ll have to talk to the investors again to get more money, losing more % of the yearly tv money.

The current status quo on the tv deal is already much worse for overall parity in the league compared to the Premier League. Bayern gets like 3x the amount that Darmstadt gets.

[SgtPepper]

That analogy is incorrect - Barcelona's cvc deal is second order and sold it's individual media rights down. They are unhappy about the league-wide CVC deal and in lawsuit with la liga over it.

To be fair there is some pressure from Bayern to raise since they don't have the budget to wage match players who can make it into title contender clubs in England or Spain (hence Lewa), and the league loses brand strength if they don't have representatives going deep in Europe or lose the ability to draw WC talent near peak. I also think that all things considered the Bundesliga will handle the negotiation terms more intelligently than either the EPL and la liga have. The fact that 2/3 of the clubs supported it including heritage clubs and contenders like Bayern, BVB, M'glbadbach, Schalke speaks more positively to this deal because the reverse is happening in la liga.

In la liga it's practically an open war for control between the heritage clubs and Tebas-land. The big clubs, Bilbao, and the Spanish FA are all suing la liga (https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/spanish-clubs-get-half-1994-billion-euros-cvc-deal-says-laliga-2023-02-14/) for the CVC deal.

[-Luke-]

Haven't been following the DFL investor deal thing closely but it seems like a lot of protest in today's games. Curious for your thoughts on what's going on, Foye and Luke.

Fans are right.

League and clubs want to make a quick million or two by selling a percentage of future tv money for the next xx years. Kinda what almost bankrupt Barcelona is doing but on a league wide basis.

It will only cement the current status quo (given that the money is handed out based on current standings).

In 3 years the majority of clubs will have used the money to overspend on mediocre players and they‘ll have to talk to the investors again to get more money, losing more % of the yearly tv money.

The current status quo on the tv deal is already much worse for overall parity in the league compared to the Premier League. Bayern gets like 3x the amount that Darmstadt gets.

To add to that, there also apparently was some foul play with the vote for that deal. The clubs had exactly the required 3/4 majority. One vote less and the deal would have fallen through.

It is relatively clear which clubs voted in favor and which voted against. The majority of the management of Hannover 96 apparently voted against the deal, but their president Martin Kind then went to the meeting, disregarded this management vote and voted in favor of the deal. Without Hannover's vote, the deal would have been rejected.

I see it similarly to Foye. It's more or less mortgaging the future for money today. My own club voted in favor of the deal. They have some major financial problems and there were already rumors that teh DFL would take away points for next season if the financial situation didn't improve. But I think that the problems will only be postponed to the future and could then very well get even worse. It's a bet that you can sell players at a high profit during this time and/or become more successful again. But the bet can of course go wrong.

German fans are also traditionally much more critical of investors than fans in other leagues. This is also due to the fact that there are special rules that apply to some clubs and not others (Hoffenheim, Leipzig, Wolfsburg, for example).

[The_Brecht]

Tuchel out?

[MetalFingaz]

Haven't been following the DFL investor deal thing closely but it seems like a lot of protest in today's games. Curious for your thoughts on what's going on, Foye and Luke.

Fans are right.

League and clubs want to make a quick million or two by selling a percentage of future tv money for the next xx years. Kinda what almost bankrupt Barcelona is doing but on a league wide basis.

It will only cement the current status quo (given that the money is handed out based on current standings).

In 3 years the majority of clubs will have used the money to overspend on mediocre players and they‘ll have to talk to the investors again to get more money, losing more % of the yearly tv money.

The current status quo on the tv deal is already much worse for overall parity in the league compared to the Premier League. Bayern gets like 3x the amount that Darmstadt gets.

To add to that, there also apparently was some foul play with the vote for that deal. The clubs had exactly the required 3/4 majority. One vote less and the deal would have fallen through.

It is relatively clear which clubs voted in favor and which voted against. The majority of the management of Hannover 96 apparently voted against the deal, but their president Martin Kind then went to the meeting, disregarded this management vote and voted in favor of the deal. Without Hannover's vote, the deal would have been rejected.

I see it similarly to Foye. It's more or less mortgaging the future for money today. My own club voted in favor of the deal. They have some major financial problems and there were already rumors that teh DFL would take away points for next season if the financial situation didn't improve. But I think that the problems will only be postponed to the future and could then very well get even worse. It's a bet that you can sell players at a high profit during this time and/or become more successful again. But the bet can of course go wrong.

German fans are also traditionally much more critical of investors than fans in other leagues. This is also due to the fact that there are special rules that apply to some clubs and not others (Hoffenheim, Leipzig, Wolfsburg, for example).

Thank you both! Curious if there's movement among members voting out their club leadership. Is that even a possibility?

[-Luke-]

Tuchel out?

I don't think he will be Bayern coach at the start of the new season. It just doesn't seem to fit. I wonder who would fit with Bayern at all. They've now worn out Ancelotti, Flick, Nagelsmann and possibly Tuchel. All good coaches (although I don't think Flick is that good of a coach). I think the problem is more in roster construction and the egos of some of the core players. I don't know which top coach still wants to coach them.

@MetalFingaz:
Not in a direct way. The club members vote for the supervisory board every few years and the supervisory board can in theory dismiss the club leaders.

[SgtPepper]

I would get rid of Muller and Goretzka as soon as possible.

The voting German club fans are not likely smarter about club finances than other league fans to the level of understanding the options and tradeoffs when fundraising is necessary; they are just more important in German club football due to the 51% rule. I think this rule is generally a huge advantage but in this case the fans are probably wrong. Every club ceo and cfo would know the fundraising options, because those jobs are about keeping the company liquid and from going bankrupt. So when most of the club execs en masse overrule fan opinions despite the fact the deal on the table favors Bayern disproportionately in a low corruption league the odds are high they are looking at it more technocratically after noting that the league altogether is declining in spend power thanks to inflation of the EPL. Over the winter bum clubs like Newcastle made enquiries for Kimmich, Bayern's crown jewel, because a lot of clubs in Europe can offer better contracts than Bayern currently. It's also why their last BdO winner is flailing at Barca instead of complaining to the press about Tuchel-ball now, and why 2 other BdO candidates left the Buli to play for City and Real. The Buli is also clearly marketed worse than the MLS or KSA to global audiences currently and consequently failing to draw as much cash from them as possible.

[Foye]

New coach in.
Guess he can't be worse than the old one.

Disappointed they once again snubbed the U19 coach Benni Hoffmann.

We'll be deservedly relegated. Way too many mistakes from management, coaching staff off the pitch and team on the pitch.

[Foye]

New coach effect in play.
1-0 win against Augsburg.
Game was better than anything this season although we still have trouble finding the net.
Should’ve scored at least 3 goals.
Gotta fight for the relegation game spot now.

[SgtPepper]

The last few weeks have exposed how poorly Bayern developed their midfield. They should have probably sold Goretzka and got complementary pieces to Kimmich like Isco (for free) and Savannier over the last summer. Leverkusen got Xhaka and Hoffman to support a good spine.

I think Leverkusen despite being the better managed team are still slightly likely to lose the Buli due to lower striker depth but they've definitely forced the standard up for the competition a lot. In a normal season Bayern has only needed ~71 points to win it.

Edit: Going to leave the post as is for posterity, but in the minutes after publishing Bayern red carded and sealed the loss to Bochum lol.

[Foye]

Title is Leverkusens to lose now after Bayerns loss today.
Different type of pressure kicks in now.
We will see what they are made of in the upcoming weeks.

They‘ll probably destroy us either way next Friday.

[-Luke-]

Jupp Heynckes' wife has probably already cut the telephone cable and destroyed his cell phone.

[The_Brecht]

Tuchel now reportedly has beef with Kimmich and some other players, who's names haven't been leaked yet.
It's a pattern.

I enjoy this tbf. Bayern panicked and sacked Nagelsmann to hire him, because they were afraid some other club would hire him.
Serves them right.

[-Luke-]

I think Kimmich and Co. (Goretzka, Sane,...) are just uncoachable. It would be nice if a club would stand by the coach for once and ship the players to the Premier League where they wouldn't be the untouchable princes.

On the other hand, Tuchel sometimes has a really miserable public image and says things that you shouldn't say as a coach. Pair that with the media in Munich who are just looking to turn a small thing into a scandal, and it's just a miserable combination. So it would probably be best for both sides to end this. It's probably not a coincidence that elder statesman like Hitzfeld and Heynckes are the most undisputed coaches for Bayern. Although they sacked Ancelotti and Rehhagel.

May be a blessing in disguise for that club if they don't win a title.

[Foye]

Tuchel now reportedly has beef with Kimmich and some other players, who's names haven't been leaked yet.
It's a pattern.

I enjoy this tbf. Bayern panicked and sacked Nagelsmann to hire him, because they were afraid some other club would hire him.
Serves them right.

Kimmich is hella overrated.
I‘d have beef with his defensive effort, too.

He is just one of those fake tough guys. He‘d be okay if he had a competent DM behind him but he is absolutely overwhelmed when he has to defend himself.

[SgtPepper]

I agree with you on that now, especially in cm. Tuchel was trying to shift him from the 6 to 8 position last season to get better coverage at the 6; I think Ancelotti or football manager me would have forced him to play at fullback more because he would be forced to move into better playmaking positions (See: Camavinga or Modric). The lack of size and the lack of effort are a bit much. Unskilled 8 Goretzka and unskilled wannabee coach Muller would have to go to make space for Buli-leading mids to balance for Kimmich imo.

I'm a bit apathetic to the media response because I remember 2010/11 Bayern which barely made the CL spots because the Buli was actually competitive beyond Dortmund then. Bayern are struggling now 100% because their board were idiots last season. At least they are showing some brains now by not feeding the compulsion to sack Tuchel midseason. Being a statesman like Heynckes is barely worth it when even winning the most convincing treble in the club's history earns a midseason sacking to make way for the bald Gordon Ramsey of football. The club's struggles are also indirectly about the money problems they are having, since their best developing players can all get better contracts abroad now in England, Spain, PSG, and KSA.

[Foye]

Looks like fans saved Bundesliga executives from selling their future for a little bit of short term money.