2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 6 - The Playoff Quest for a Title

[Frank Lee]

15+ years ago I used to mod another Suns forum. I was able to always be optimistic and honest to god believe it. Keep things positive.
What this team has done to me, being so negative all the time and pessimistic, is so deflating. I was never like this. 2 more losses and I can finally enjoy my summer.
I'll focus on the NHL playoffs which I always enjoy watching (and my team didn't even make the playoffs!).

Yes… let us proceed


0 and a gd lot

[Frank Lee]

Beal’s no trade clause is second fiddle to his no trade contract. Yet he seems to care more than the 100 mil nonchalant bros.

[garrick]

He went to UnIversity of Florida. The Magic need a perimeter player with range badly. That would be the dream since they have tons of picks and young players. I'm guessing that's a pipe dream.

Durant will be the only one moving on, if we move on from any of them.

It'll be a conversation for the offseason but I believe Book and Beal can work together if it's a 'big 2'.
Using a KD trade to fill in the blanks.

Years later, we can move Booker to replenish picks if it comes to that. There's no urgency there.

And I don't want this to sound like it's all KD's fault because it's not.
But if Booker can be the guy to go to, to take the big shots, then we're screwed anyway.

KD for Randle and picks. That'd give us a PF who can handle the ball and shoot the 3 well. Picks to replenish the farm a bit (or use to make future trades).

I do wonder if there is any way to get Murray from the Hawks (in a KD type trade). But then we become a smaller team. Lots what what ifs.

I've had the same though. I think if it was just any 2 of the big 3, it doesn't really matter which 2, they would both play better and be more motivated, getting more shots and less of them used to being high usage guys, main guys, watching the others.

And KD, even being the best player, makes the most sense for that reason given his age, likely trade value, etc.

Having two ball dominant players just doesn't work and when they both play the same position it's just stupid unless one slides to the bench which we aren't going to do. We are also at times running 3 shooting guards out there when we have Grayson playing SF so we are really desperately lacking in size and teams like the Wolves are just going to bully us to death and we can't stop them.

[AtheJ415]

Beal’s no trade clause is second fiddle to his no trade contract. Yet he seems to care more than the 100 mil nonchalant bros.

I don't think Beal is the problem, and I don't have an issue with his trade. Would Kyrie have been better? Maybe, but I don't think Kyrie provides the leadership we are missing. The issue with this team is NOT talent.

The team has 3 primary, elite, HOF level creators in their primes. PG play is also NOT the issue imo.

The issue is a complete lack of leadership and urgency, combined with god awful coaching all year. The team is uncertain of where it is supposed to be / what it is supposed to be doing on both ends at key times. The team makes lazy, unfocused plays all over the place. We routinely play rotation players that are woefully inept when we have ones on the bench who at least have been effective when they play (hello Bol Bol). We have an extreme level of shooting most could only dream of and we barely use it, instead running an offense that goes one on one and matchup hunts all game.

This team needs these pissant boys, including their max level players, to stand up as MEN and grow some balls.

I will also add Eric Gordon should have been benched the entirety of the rest of that game for not shooting the 1st half heave to save his shooting %. Benching him would show leadership. We are a full season down and have no accountability and no leadership and it starts at the top, which is Vogel and KD primarily in my opinion. Booker and Beal too but I do see Beal at least playing hard on defense and Booker yelling at guys to talk and when out of position. We need accountability. Badly. And Vogel was supposed to bring that but he has just absolutely sucked.

[Frank Lee]

Yup

[bwgood77]

It'll be a conversation for the offseason but I believe Book and Beal can work together if it's a 'big 2'.
Using a KD trade to fill in the blanks.

Years later, we can move Booker to replenish picks if it comes to that. There's no urgency there.

And I don't want this to sound like it's all KD's fault because it's not.
But if Booker can be the guy to go to, to take the big shots, then we're screwed anyway.

KD for Randle and picks. That'd give us a PF who can handle the ball and shoot the 3 well. Picks to replenish the farm a bit (or use to make future trades).

I do wonder if there is any way to get Murray from the Hawks (in a KD type trade). But then we become a smaller team. Lots what what ifs.

I've had the same though. I think if it was just any 2 of the big 3, it doesn't really matter which 2, they would both play better and be more motivated, getting more shots and less of them used to being high usage guys, main guys, watching the others.

And KD, even being the best player, makes the most sense for that reason given his age, likely trade value, etc.

Having two ball dominant players just doesn't work and when they both play the same position it's just stupid unless one slides to the bench which we aren't going to do. We are also at times running 3 shooting guards out there when we have Grayson playing SF so we are really desperately lacking in size and teams like the Wolves are just going to bully us to death and we can't stop them.

They can both play on or off the ball. The problem is when you have 3. It depends on the players too. Like I knew Westbrook wouldn't work in LA with LeBron because he can't shoot, so what are you going to do since LeBron is always primary ball handler...have him try and spread the floor? And to give up great role player 3&D guys in Caruso/KCP along with other guys like Harrell, Kuzma, Schroder, etc.

Anyway, it depends a lot if they can hit the 3. But Luka and Kyrie are both primary ball handlers, as were Kyrie and LeBron.

The simple problem is that we are too spoiled to have had CP3 playing like he was almost in his prime for 2 years. Just having "a PG" is not going to solve as many problems as one would think.

[bwgood77]

I saw Bill Simmons was trending on twitter so I checked out what it was all about...I mean I knew it had to do with the Celtics but wanted to see what he said....and I think this tweet encapsulates what a lot of Suns fans are feeling watching the last couple of games...unfortunately you now have to go to twitter to see the tweets/videos, but if/when you do, make sure you turn the sound on.

Read on Twitter

[Ghost of Kleine]

Beal’s no trade clause is second fiddle to his no trade contract. Yet he seems to care more than the 100 mil nonchalant bros.

Bad timing for.................................................

Read on Twitter

[Ghost of Kleine]

I saw Bill Simmons was trending on twitter so I checked out what it was all about...I mean I knew it had to do with the Celtics but wanted to see what he said....and I think this tweet encapsulates what a lot of Suns fans are feeling watching the last couple of games...unfortunately you now have to go to twitter to see the tweets/videos, but if/when you do, make sure you turn the sound on.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

He's "just chillin" to the vibes of 1......2......3...... Cancun!!!!

[Slim Charless]

I saw Bill Simmons was trending on twitter so I checked out what it was all about...I mean I knew it had to do with the Celtics but wanted to see what he said....and I think this tweet encapsulates what a lot of Suns fans are feeling watching the last couple of games...unfortunately you now have to go to twitter to see the tweets/videos, but if/when you do, make sure you turn the sound on.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

He's "just chillin" to the vibes of 1......2......3...... Cancun!!!!

Simmons is pretty close to Ish too. Remember he got that solo interview with him last year? Right after he bought the team. I imagine if you looked into Simmons's phone, you'd see Ish's number in there. The 2 are at least somewhat close.

Point is, if Simmons is saying that Ishbia would be thinking of trading guys-then I'd listen. The stuff about JJ and to a lesser degree Vogel means nothing to me as anyone could see that coming.

[handsome salary]

Suns are the only team where the playoff talk after 2 games is who gets traded after they lose in the first round. Can't even muster a choke job thread since they've been down a lot in the 2nd halves.

[SunsRback4Good]

Suns are the only team where the playoff talk after 2 games is who gets traded after they lose in the first round. Can't even muster a choke job thread since they've been down a lot in the 2nd halves.

Suns are who we thought they were. You wanna crown them then crown their azz, but the suns are who we thought they were.

[SunsRback4Good]

“It was only a matter of time then until the first "trade Devin Booker" suggestions started to pop up, and one was recently put forward by none other than Bill Simmons.

The self-confessed "Podfather" not one to shy away from making bold trade ideas and suggestions, which has led to him being an extremely divisive character in the entertaining world of the NBA. This isn't the first time Simmons has mentioned Booker recently either - and with the Suns staring elimination in the face - he has come back for more, saying on his podcast on The Ringer;

"(Suns' owner Mat) Ishbia and whoever his inner circle is, and they're like let's call New Orleans. (Executive VP David) Griffin answers and he says C.J. McCollum and Trey Murphy and throw us two future picks, and you can have Booker."

https://valleyofthesuns.com/posts/wild-devin-booker-trade-idea-emerges-during-chaotic-playoff-series

[sunsfan1o1]

“It was only a matter of time then until the first "trade Devin Booker" suggestions started to pop up, and one was recently put forward by none other than Bill Simmons.

The self-confessed "Podfather" not one to shy away from making bold trade ideas and suggestions, which has led to him being an extremely divisive character in the entertaining world of the NBA. This isn't the first time Simmons has mentioned Booker recently either - and with the Suns staring elimination in the face - he has come back for more, saying on his podcast on The Ringer;

"(Suns' owner Mat) Ishbia and whoever his inner circle is, and they're like let's call New Orleans. (Executive VP David) Griffin answers and he says C.J. McCollum and Trey Murphy and throw us two future picks, and you can have Booker."

https://valleyofthesuns.com/posts/wild-devin-booker-trade-idea-emerges-during-chaotic-playoff-series

Suns just need 2 point guards (starter and backup), a 6’9 lanky athletic 3D player and a dog (guy who’s not scared to play tough and dirty if they have to). That’s what every championship team has. The hardest part is getting the star and we have 3 of them.
James Jones is just stubborn and refused to get a point guard and loves soft timid players.

[bwgood77]

Simmons is pretty close to Ish too. Remember he got that solo interview with him last year? Right after he bought the team. I imagine if you looked into Simmons's phone, you'd see Ish's number in there. The 2 are at least somewhat close.

Point is, if Simmons is saying that Ishbia would be thinking of trading guys-then I'd listen. The stuff about JJ and to a lesser degree Vogel means nothing to me as anyone could see that coming.

I doubt Simmons is close to Ish. He has had interviews with loads of people, including Obama...I doubt they are really close. They talked about The Wire.

I also remember a column a long time ago when he said he ran into Isiah Thomas at a pool (in Vegas or something) and it was a guy he had always ridiculed building the Knicks and he ended up saying good things about him after they talked, from what I remember.

I seriously doubt anyone listens to Simmons on trade ideas.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Lol, who would want him? That contract is going to prevent any sort of deal. We are stuck. I’m applying to be converted to a Knicks fan for the next 3 years.

I still think Miami would deal for him for Robinson and Rozier or pieces like that for example. Detroit may.
Will we get much value or will it be easy? No. It's to get smaller contracts. But it's possible.

Yeah, I think Miami is a team that could do it if it's something like that. They always operate over the cap anyway. Robinson is a really bad contract.

Rozier has been horrible this season though, with a 53% TS%.

They (Miami) did have interest in him before, but wanted him to be willing to drop his "no trade clause" as part of the deal in the trade, they negotiated a bit further, but he told everyone he only wanted Phoenix at that point, and then Miami did change course to pursue Lillard with no success. I do believe if the salary exchange for them and for us (as it has to be) is equal, then they'd likely do it to get off of Rozier and Robinson for a higher tier talent that can bring significant offense to balance out their defense!

However, considering their lack of draft assets and that we'd have to take back basically equal salary with no real relief, then I'd be against taking back Robinson, and would instead demand Herro (in case we inevitably move Booker or he asks out)?? Although I'm not overtly clear on their disposition/ willingness to trade Herro? But he'd be an equitable high value exchange alternatively to us not getting back any draft picks in the deal to offset what we gave up! as a centerpiece, and although he's clearly not on Bookers' level yet, he clearly has similar attributes and skillset/abilities that can be developed! Kind of a bargain version Booker clone for half the cost. Then we could look to make Rozier our 6th man scorer of the bench, or look to send him elsewhere for other assets possibly?

[bwgood77]

I still think Miami would deal for him for Robinson and Rozier or pieces like that for example. Detroit may.
Will we get much value or will it be easy? No. It's to get smaller contracts. But it's possible.

Yeah, I think Miami is a team that could do it if it's something like that. They always operate over the cap anyway. Robinson is a really bad contract.

Rozier has been horrible this season though, with a 53% TS%.

They (Miami) did have interest in him before, but wanted him to be willing to drop his "no trade clause" as part of the deal in the trade, they negotiated a bit further, but he told everyone he only wanted Phoenix at that point, and then Miami did change course to pursue Lillard with no success. I do believe if the salary exchange for them and for us (as it has to be) is equal, then they'd likely do it to get off of Rozier and Robinson for a higher tier talent that can bring significant offense to balance out their defense!

However, considering their lack of draft assets and that we'd have to take back basically equal salary with no real relief, then I'd be against taking back Robinson, and would instead demand Herro (in case we inevitably move Booker or he asks out)?? Although I'm not overtly clear on their disposition/ willingness to trade Herro? But he'd be an equitable high value exchange alternatively to us not getting back any draft picks in the deal to offset what we gave up! as a centerpiece, and although he's clearly not on Bookers' level yet, he clearly has similar attributes and skillset/abilities that can be developed! Kind of a bargain version Booker clone for half the cost. Then we could look to make Rozier our 6th man scorer of the bench, or look to send him elsewhere for other assets possibly?

They wouldn't trade Herro. Beal is a negative contract. Why I was happy to get him for CP3 and Shamet was because CP3 was washed and basically cost us the Dallas series and was a complete non factor last year...and I didn't think we'd get anything for those guys...and then if they expired we'd be over the cap and unable to do anything at all. Some seem to think we could have used his "space" to sign other guys but there was no space...it was carved out to pay CP3 one more year or cut him and save $15 million, and Shamet. So given CP3's $30 million and Shamet's $11 million.

If we could get Herro and Rozier, I'd do it, but I don't see them offering that at all, despite Rozier sucking this year. But for Robinson and Rozier, I could see something like that. Those are both negative contracts as well and neither have added value this year (Rozier -7 net rating which is really bad...Robinson was neutral). Herro at least had a 1 net rating and is younger.

[Ghost of Kleine]

“It was only a matter of time then until the first "trade Devin Booker" suggestions started to pop up, and one was recently put forward by none other than Bill Simmons.

The self-confessed "Podfather" not one to shy away from making bold trade ideas and suggestions, which has led to him being an extremely divisive character in the entertaining world of the NBA. This isn't the first time Simmons has mentioned Booker recently either - and with the Suns staring elimination in the face - he has come back for more, saying on his podcast on The Ringer;

"(Suns' owner Mat) Ishbia and whoever his inner circle is, and they're like let's call New Orleans. (Executive VP David) Griffin answers and he says C.J. McCollum and Trey Murphy and throw us two future picks, and you can have Booker."

https://valleyofthesuns.com/posts/wild-devin-booker-trade-idea-emerges-during-chaotic-playoff-series

Yeah! But that trade postulation was clearly so very bad and not even remotely close to the level of value that the suns would want for Booker that it had to be intentionally hyperbolic just to draw traffic, and promote dramatic responses. I mean 1 1/2 starter level players and only two unknown value future picks that'd likely be in the mid to late 20s' at best once they acquired Booker and still had Zion and Ingram! etc etc. That's absolutely bottonm tier value if there ever was any. Furthermore, there's just no way imaginable unless Ishbia became sevrely cognitavely impaired and could no longer mentally function in reality that he (othr any other Owner/Gm) would trade their franchise player to a young upcoming already becoming stronger conference rival unless intentionally trying to bottom out and tank hard!! And if that's the case, two decent but not great starters and two uncertian future 1sts just dowsn't come remotely close to the baseline value expected/demanded. It's so laughable that it's almost sad!

And this is coming from someone that actually likes McCollum and Trey Murphy 3rd. I just can't see how anyone can take him seriously If he's throwing out pure garbage insanity like this! Even if it's intentional hyperbolic promotion for clicks. It's like having a severely drunk clown on the radio and then (jokingly) asking him what ideas he has regarding suns trades.

[Biff]

I mean if we don't blow it up what's that going to look like? We are hardcapped and can make basically no moves. We'd have to more or less run it back and could sign guys on the vet min. After this **** of a season, you think anyone noteworthy will give up money to try to win? If we get swept there's zero chance of that happening. Maybe if we somehow turn it around and win this series we'll be able to convince someone but probably not.

So we run it back next year, all these young teams just getting better and there's a good chance we don't even make the playoffs next year. KD walks away for nothing, Booker demands a trade and his value tanks because we have no leverage. Our best option for the future is to ship out Booker and KD this offseason. Otherwise we're screwed until the 2030's. Our chances of winning a title with this core are closer to 0% than 100%. A lot closer.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Yeah, I think Miami is a team that could do it if it's something like that. They always operate over the cap anyway. Robinson is a really bad contract.

Rozier has been horrible this season though, with a 53% TS%.

They (Miami) did have interest in him before, but wanted him to be willing to drop his "no trade clause" as part of the deal in the trade, they negotiated a bit further, but he told everyone he only wanted Phoenix at that point, and then Miami did change course to pursue Lillard with no success. I do believe if the salary exchange for them and for us (as it has to be) is equal, then they'd likely do it to get off of Rozier and Robinson for a higher tier talent that can bring significant offense to balance out their defense!

However, considering their lack of draft assets and that we'd have to take back basically equal salary with no real relief, then I'd be against taking back Robinson, and would instead demand Herro (in case we inevitably move Booker or he asks out)?? Although I'm not overtly clear on their disposition/ willingness to trade Herro? But he'd be an equitable high value exchange alternatively to us not getting back any draft picks in the deal to offset what we gave up! as a centerpiece, and although he's clearly not on Bookers' level yet, he clearly has similar attributes and skillset/abilities that can be developed! Kind of a bargain version Booker clone for half the cost. Then we could look to make Rozier our 6th man scorer of the bench, or look to send him elsewhere for other assets possibly?

They wouldn't trade Herro. Beal is a negative contract. Why I was happy to get him for CP3 and Shamet was because CP3 was washed and basically cost us the Dallas series and was a complete non factor last year...and I didn't think we'd get anything for those guys...and then if they expired we'd be over the cap and unable to do anything at all. Some seem to think we could have used his "space" to sign other guys but there was no space...it was carved out to pay CP3 one more year or cut him and save $15 million, and Shamet. So given CP3's $30 million and Shamet's $11 million.

If we could get Herro and Rozier, I'd do it, but I don't see them offering that at all, despite Rozier sucking this year. But for Robinson and Rozier, I could see something like that. Those are both negative contracts as well and neither have added value this year (Rozier -7 net rating which is really bad...Robinson was neutral). Herro at least had a 1 net rating and is younger.

You could be right that Miami would not be willing to trade Herro! But then I wouldn't do the trade! We DON'T REALLY NEED TO TRADE bEAL after all, and at some point, we really have to stop dealing from a point of weakness and losing trades if we're serious about actually getting better. But again, seeing as the heat have zero draft assets that they can give us in return for Beal who contract aside, is still clearly the much better talent than either Rozier or Herro (currently), that would be my hardline baseline to do the trade. IF they don't agree to that value exchange, No harm no foul! We just move on and explore elsewhere or simply keep him and build around a very potent backcourt of Beal/ Booker, and look to add more playmaking through unconvenntional positions such as the KD to New York for Randle trade or prhaps even look at wing and forward playmakers via the draft/undrafted range in prospects such as Jalen Tyson, Oso Ighodaro, Emmanuel Miller, Robbie Avila (Saric with Jokic passing potential), Jonathan Mogbo (Okongwu but with better high level passing/defensive switchability, but little to no offense) etc.

** I also think that there might actually be one or two other teams that could be intrigued by the thought ofv Beal, as long as we're taking back equitable salary/ unwanted players in the deal:

- Maybe Utah? IF we were willing to take back Collins and Sexton or whatever really works for them?

- Maybe Toronto? We take back Bruce Brown/ Boucher?

- Maybe the Flakers? Take back/ Russell,Hachimura, Vincent, Hood schifino/ filler (sign n trade)?

- Maybe Philly?? They literally have only two players on their roster for next season, and will need to spend just to make their floor salary line. So it'd have to be a trade deadline deal once they fill out there roster, but they'll either be looking to trade Embiid and blow it all up completely or they'll need to add another big name talent to keep Embiid somewhat invested and not asking out.

- Maybe Brooklyn?? Would we be willing (IF tanking) to swap Beals' $53 million for Simmons' $40 million expiring and a filler (schroder) so we could get off his salary early? Maybe even flip Simmons' expiring elsewhere to a tax paying team looking for cap relief for other players/assets?

Maybe one or even some of these suggestions might actually be possible, or maybe none of them are actually possible at all. Regardless, Beal isn't a bad player at all, just overpaid significantly. But we'd still be more than fine with him and a backcourt of Booker too! AND he has shown some ability to be a playmaker for others, so maybe we just have him focus more on that and being a better version of Westbrooks' role with the Clippers for us. As for Paul, the oppositional perspective discussion was around the possibilities of other potentially better trade options, and I believe it can be argued there absolutely were other possible avenues we might have explored alternatively to Beal WITHOUT GIVING UP A BUNCH OF DRAFT ASSETS. And even IF Paul expiring wouldn't have gotten us under the tax, Shamets' contract was unguaranteed, and we might have been able to trade Ayton for cheaper alternative returning pieces that cumulatively would've reduced our tax hit/ cap consequences under the new much harsher CBA, and at least left us with some assets to work with.

But what's done is done, and now we have to figure out how to get things back on track again!