The Suns should KEEP HORNACEK and STAY PAT and here's why

[Revived]

I think I'm gonna go the bwgood route and agree with him and say I want Hornacek to stay for now.

Honestly speaking, best thing for this franchise right now is to suck ass and we all pray and hope that the Suns get the good luck that their due and they win the lotto and get Simmons.

That's literally the only way I see the Suns coming out of this mess in the next 2 or 3 years.

If we fire Hornacek and it sparks some sort of pointless energy and we win some pointless games, we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot more.

So think about it, do you really want that or wouldn't you just stay PAT and continue this and hopefully watch Booker and Warren develop into something throughout the season?

The only move imo they should do is trade Kieff just cause that situation is so damn bad. They should also declare that Bledsoe has a season ending injury regardless of whatever it is and just give him rest of the year off. Have him work on his jumper and conditioning behind the scenes. Start Booker, Len and Warren for remainder of the year which means plenty of ugly games because their young but at least they get minutes and hopefully learn from it. I know I speak for most Suns fans when I say those 3 players are arguably the only reason to even turn on the TV and watch the games.

Play Knight as much as possible and MAKE SURE he's aggressive and that he's the main one that takes shots in the 4th QTR of close games.

Then make moves and fire Hornacek and others AFTER the season. Yes writing is on the wall and under no circumstances should this buffoon of a HC be kept for another year (I wonder if he's even interested in coming back as well). Hire someone with coaching experiences who can work better wit the roster AFTER the season. If someone wants to offer something decent for Tucker/Chandler at trade deadline (when I say something decent I mean a young player that didn't work out or was a bust for that team such as Tobias Harris etc) then do it. Biyombo was a bust for the Bobcats and he's now playing solid basketball for the Raptors, sometimes a change's all that's needed for some of these players.

Sure you could call this a tank thread but I don't care, our other method hasn't worked that well over the last 3 years. And I'm not saying tank next season too, this season's a lost case at this point anyway regardless of what moves are made.

[bwgood77]

Well good for you. I've continued to say if you think Hornacek sucks and also want a high pick, why do you want him fired? This season is seemingly lost regardless so it doesn't really matter. The biggest objective besides making a great pick in the offseason and getting the right coach, should be making sure there are not any dark clouds hanging over where we are (Morris this year, pg situation last year).

I can't imagine people will want moves to get to the 8th seed as much as making moves for the future. We need to make moves to get rid of Markieff and hopefully get someone decent..Terrence Jones makes the most sense, but all this is for the future...I want them to make moves, but I want the high pick, so play it out, make moves that make sense, and that is fine.

[Revived]

Well good for you. I've continued to say if you think Hornacek sucks and also want a high pick, why do you want him fired? This season is seemingly lost regardless so it doesn't really matter. The biggest objective besides making a great pick in the offseason and getting the right coach, should be making sure there are not any dark clouds hanging over where we are (Morris this year, pg situation last year).

I can't imagine people will want moves to get to the 8th seed as much as making moves for the future. We need to make moves to get rid of Markieff and hopefully get someone decent..Terrence Jones makes the most sense, but all this is for the future...I want them to make moves, but I want the high pick, so play it out, make moves that make sense, and that is fine.

Yea the Kieff trade should really be the only transaction Suns make. Unless Tucker and Chandler raise their trade value by trade deadline and some other team wants them they can have him or anyone not named Booker/Warren and maybe Len.

Keep Hornacek under the condition that he's required to play Booker, Warren and Len at least 25 mins per night (barring injury/foul trouble) regardless of how bad of a night their having.

If he's down with that, just ride it out with him. If he's not, hire some puppet from the coaching staff who is willing to do that.

[GMATCallahan]

Whatever one's philosophy, I hope that people understand that just firing the coach is not going to turn the Suns into a playoff team or something. This roster is not one that has enough of the right pieces and simply needs a new leader—rather, the roster is deficient.

Consider the roster from two years ago, when the Suns won 48 games (although they narrowly missed the playoffs). That team started Channing Frye and brought Markieff Morris, Marcus Morris, and Gerald Green off the bench (or started Green at shooting guard when Bledsoe was out). All those players were flawed, but they did bring some scoring punch and versatility, and Phoenix constituted a more aggressive, explosive club with those guys.

Well, Frye, Marcus Morris, and Green are all gone, while Markieff Morris might as well be gone. Their replacements, meanwhile, are even more flawed or happen to be less confident and more callow as NBA players.

Firing Hornacek would probably be akin to the Suns' decision to fire Alvin Gentry three years ago—you can do it, but what are you really going to accomplish with such a deficient roster?

[blacksun]

Agreed. Id like to add that if we are to start over, its best to get rid of one of Bledsoe or Knight, maybe even both. Not that I dont believe in the two-pg system, but rather, its an issue of their skills overlapping. Paying 28M a year to the same thing is bad business. Giving the starting role to Booker next year would make more sense imo.

Theres no reason to dump Hornacek this year. People are calling for heads to roll? Let it be Morris, Tucker, Chandler. Try to bring in young guys/picks/expiring in return. Pray for Ben Simmons. Then hire a new coach this offseason. A teacher, disciplinarian and motivator.

Finally id like to see an effort to reconnect with suns fans. Maybe bring Nash back as an assistant coach or GM. Bring some suns vets back, maybe Jared Dudley, Amare, etc. I also think its time to cut ties with Lon Babby. Although i think he did an okay job, its his name thats been associated with this five year stinkfest and we have to move on from him.

If were gonna rebuild, we have to do it right. Instill a culture and dont allow punks like Morris to ruin it. Half assing this will only get us back to where we were, the perennial 9th seed.

[Puff]

We need to start playing the right way and that is why Hornacek needs to be fired. I cannot stand to watch this crap anymore. I think we need to start playing the right away this year not next. The reason is that we cannot possibly get rid of everybody so we need to get our keepers playing the right way, now. If anyone does not buy in then they are benched or moved.

Just look at that game tonight. Ish gets a lot of credit as a pass 1st point guard but he only had 5 assists. Surely he started the action but that team shared the ball. Not just Ish but everyone big and small. Denver did the same thing when they beat us the other night. I am not sure about Denver's future but I can actually see Philadelphia being pretty good in the not so distant future. They have some nice pieces with more to come.

[TeamTragic]

Keep Hornacek. Engage Tank. Simmons.

[thamadkant]

Getting a new coach will likely "inspire" the team to play well for several games and could push Suns up from a top 5 pick to a pick between 10 and 14.... so I would prefer to watch this train wreck knowing there is a HUGE payoff in the end.

Also to quote Kobe.. ‘There’s so much beauty in the pain of this thing’


With that said... some people wont like it... BUT...

Kobe Bryant is going to retire at seasons end, and he has indicated he wants to BUY an NBA team.

I would LOVE for Kobe to buy the Suns from Sarver.

Kobe is COMPETITIVE as heck.... I cant see him tolerate losing much.


NOTE: I hate Kobe, I enjoyed hating him. But now with Lakers losing and Kobe about to retire, I am now less harsh on him and am actually a bit nostalgic.

[kennydorglas]

Let our TANK COMMANDER lead us to the glory.
Just dont miss on another top5 pick, please.

[TASTIC]

Clips could use a PF to replace Griffin while he's out...but they have little to offer.

I tend to agree with keeping Hornacek. He showed with committed players who buy into his schemes that we CAN win ball games.

This season is a weird one; we're as close to a 7 - 8 seed as we've ever been in the past couple seasons, but in the same sense we're closer to a top 4-5 pick than we have been lately too.

Basically I'm sick of the #13 pick, so trade Kieff (and chandler if we get a taker) and play the young guys. We have our pick and the Cavs one so the draft is something to look forward to isn't it?!

Argh this team frustrates the hell out of me, year in and year out its a punch to the nads that lasts for 82 games.

My non-Suns mates all tease the crap outta me, especially cos this season of all seasons I said "playoffs for sure!" and now the goddamn joke is on me again!

[JMac1]

Good point. Hornacek stinks, so keep him to cement a better draft pick, hopefully number 1. I like the idea of trading away all of the vets for picks and allow the young guys to play.

I recant my stance on Horny

[AtheJ415]

I agree with the premise, but I still think we need to make more moves. Not just Kieff. Because if Tucker is still on the roster, regardless of if Hornacek starts him, he will see more minutes than TJ and Booker (he has every game that TJ has started I believe). Guys like Kieff, Tucker, and Price, and imo even Tele and Chandler should be moved. A few of them may have value, which we'd want to capitalize on. Some just suck but we should move them to get them away from the locker room and move the contracts.

Also, the key is for our young talent to develop. I don't think we'd necessarily win without Hornacek, but if he stays and our guys like Len, Booker, Warren, Bledsoe, and Knight go a full year without defensive improvement, I'm not sure that's worth jumping from like the 8th pick to the top 5. My biggest issue with Hornacek is there has been 0 improvement in team areas despite obvious improvement in many players' individual skills. I have little faith that our youngsters are learning how to properly defend and play smart offense under jeff. For as much as everyone hates this team, and they are ugly to watch, we do have real young talent in Booker, Warren, Len, Knight, and Bledsoe (hell, even arguably Archie), the development of which as a team/unit should be a priority. I don't see the team development, even though I see the individual skills getting better. Perhaps Jeff is better suited to be an assistant or a trainer at this point.

[AtheJ415]

So i guess I'm saying we should move the guys, replace them with young guys we can take fliers on, and force Jeff to play the youngsters. If there's no improvement in the following 7-10 games, can Jeff and promote an assistant for interim purposes.

[RaisingArizona]

[GMATCallahan]

Agreed. Id like to add that if we are to start over, its best to get rid of one of Bledsoe or Knight, maybe even both. Not that I dont believe in the two-pg system, but rather, its an issue of their skills overlapping. Paying 28M a year to the same thing is bad business. Giving the starting role to Booker next year would make more sense imo.

Theres no reason to dump Hornacek this year. People are calling for heads to roll? Let it be Morris, Tucker, Chandler. Try to bring in young guys/picks/expiring in return. Pray for Ben Simmons. Then hire a new coach this offseason. A teacher, disciplinarian and motivator.

Finally id like to see an effort to reconnect with suns fans. Maybe bring Nash back as an assistant coach or GM. Bring some suns vets back, maybe Jared Dudley, Amare, etc. I also think its time to cut ties with Lon Babby. Although i think he did an okay job, its his name thats been associated with this five year stinkfest and we have to move on from him.

If were gonna rebuild, we have to do it right. Instill a culture and dont allow punks like Morris to ruin it. Half assing this will only get us back to where we were, the perennial 9th seed.

If the Suns are to bring Nash back, the role should be one of a special assistant to the general manager. That way, he could lend his insight and gain a feel if he wants a larger position down the road. The idea that someone with no front office experience and no full-time coaching experience would turn the organization around just because of his name makes little sense. As a general manager or a coach, you do not actually touch the basketball during a game.

Bringing back Stoudemire as a shell of his former self would just be sad. The way for the team to "reconnect with the fans" is to build a winning, enjoyable, and worthwhile product, not retreat to the past. Frankly, the organization cannot worry about the fans too much. The fear of alienating the fan base is part of what left the Suns in this dreary position in the first place—the organization was apparently afraid of a backlash if the team traded an aging Nash before he reached free agency. Thus the franchise could never properly or fully rebuild the roster and has been in a "half-baked" position for years.

As for two "point guards" (note the quotation marks), the issue in my view is not an overlap of assets so much as an overlap of deficiencies. Brandon Knight is not a real point guard, and Eric Bledsoe's assists-to-turnover ratio is inadequate for a primary point guard, as it always has been. Thus he needs help for the offense to function properly, but Knight is not necessarily sufficient because his assists-to-turnover ratio is even worse. If anything, the Suns might be better off if they actually paired Bledsoe with a true point guard—in other words, if they made the system more of a two-point guard offense rather than less of one.

[GMATCallahan]

I agree with the premise, but I still think we need to make more moves. Not just Kieff. Because if Tucker is still on the roster, regardless of if Hornacek starts him, he will see more minutes than TJ and Booker (he has every game that TJ has started I believe). Guys like Kieff, Tucker, and Price, and imo even Tele and Chandler should be moved. A few of them may have value, which we'd want to capitalize on. Some just suck but we should move them to get them away from the locker room and move the contracts.

Also, the key is for our young talent to develop. I don't think we'd necessarily win without Hornacek, but if he stays and our guys like Len, Booker, Warren, Bledsoe, and Knight go a full year without defensive improvement, I'm not sure that's worth jumping from like the 8th pick to the top 5. My biggest issue with Hornacek is there has been 0 improvement in team areas despite obvious improvement in many players' individual skills. I have little faith that our youngsters are learning how to properly defend and play smart offense under jeff. For as much as everyone hates this team, and they are ugly to watch, we do have real young talent in Booker, Warren, Len, Knight, and Bledsoe (hell, even arguably Archie), the development of which as a team/unit should be a priority. I don't see the team development, even though I see the individual skills getting better. Perhaps Jeff is better suited to be an assistant or a trainer at this point.

The Suns possess some individual talent, but the issues that you are describing are probably always going to be there, more or less, with this set of personnel—at least on the offensive end. The only real way to change them will be through roster reconstruction or the acquisition of a guy who makes the game easier for those around him—in other words, a true franchise player.

[nevetsov]

Was going to post this in the Sixers game thread, but this is probably a more appropriate place now.

IMO the one that needs to go is Longabardi.

Simply, our defense has just gone down the toilet. We are consistently giving up 100-110+ points with a team of mostly capable defenders. Our 3 point defense is amongst the worst in the league and even poor shooting teams seem to go off on us.

From the eye test of a guy who has coached for a number of years, there are a number of notables.

- We are consistently (aggressively) overplaying anyone on the three point line, shooter or not. This allows for the offensive player to blow by defender and get into the paint way too often, and in a league where teams are playing 4 out, puts too much pressure on the defensive anchor.
- The help defense SUCKS. When the ball handler gets into the key, our half assed help is caught in no mans land (usually too far to be effective help on the penetration, and too far from the shooter to recover).
- Thus, we are consistently either giving up layups when our defensive anchor steps out to stop the penetration, or a wide open 3 because the help cannot recover.

Our mantra to better defend the 3 by over playing it on the initial possession is actually exposing us to a wide open 3 later in the possession. That is, if the penetrator doesn't get a layup first.

To make matters worse, things seem to be on the decline as we continue to overplay the initial perimeter play (to protect the 3).

With the amount of athleticism and veteran D on this team, there is no way we should be this bad, much less not showing signs of improvement. Longabardi needs to go.

By all accounts the players like Horny. He may be soft, but you need a players' coach, a conduit or mediator to continue to getthe most out of the players. Plus, he's expiring at the end of the season anyway.

In an ideal world, I would throw a wad of money at Thibs for a 4 month "defensive cosultancy" job (similar to D'Antoni in PHI), to tighten up the system and most importantly, get the young guys in the correct defensive mindset while they are still developing. Setting the young guys up for next season should be the priority now, even moreso with Bledsoe out.

At the end of the season, both come off contract, and after 4 months of evaluation,we'd have the opportunity to retain either Hornacek or Thibs as Head Coach (should he want to stay on). Or who knows, perhaps both.

And FYI, I get that our offense sucks, but given we have a chasm of offensive talent, i'm willing to give us a pass given how we started the season. And it's not something we can really work on long term while our franchise PG is on the shelf. D is something everyone should be able to buy into.

[thamadkant]

One of the reasons the Suns seems to be playing terrible defense the last 20 games has been the move to Run and Gun.
From the moment Leuer and Teletovic started getting big minutes and started jacking up 3s... some of which goes in... the defense has become an after thought.

I think its a head coaching direction.... basically, letting the game become shoot outs...

[AtheJ415]

I agree with the premise, but I still think we need to make more moves. Not just Kieff. Because if Tucker is still on the roster, regardless of if Hornacek starts him, he will see more minutes than TJ and Booker (he has every game that TJ has started I believe). Guys like Kieff, Tucker, and Price, and imo even Tele and Chandler should be moved. A few of them may have value, which we'd want to capitalize on. Some just suck but we should move them to get them away from the locker room and move the contracts.

Also, the key is for our young talent to develop. I don't think we'd necessarily win without Hornacek, but if he stays and our guys like Len, Booker, Warren, Bledsoe, and Knight go a full year without defensive improvement, I'm not sure that's worth jumping from like the 8th pick to the top 5. My biggest issue with Hornacek is there has been 0 improvement in team areas despite obvious improvement in many players' individual skills. I have little faith that our youngsters are learning how to properly defend and play smart offense under jeff. For as much as everyone hates this team, and they are ugly to watch, we do have real young talent in Booker, Warren, Len, Knight, and Bledsoe (hell, even arguably Archie), the development of which as a team/unit should be a priority. I don't see the team development, even though I see the individual skills getting better. Perhaps Jeff is better suited to be an assistant or a trainer at this point.

The Suns possess some individual talent, but the issues that you are describing are probably always going to be there, more or less, with this set of personnel—at least on the offensive end. The only real way to change them will be through roster reconstruction or the acquisition of a guy who makes the game easier for those around him—in other words, a true franchise player.

People said the same thing about the Atlanta Hawks, who replaced the head coach and saw a lot of the same players suddenly become "heady, high IQ" guys. Hell, look at Golden State after switching out Jackson for Kerr. Coaching matters. This inherent and steadfast belief that players are either high IQ or low IQ and cannot change is simply faulty.

[GMATCallahan]

I agree with the premise, but I still think we need to make more moves. Not just Kieff. Because if Tucker is still on the roster, regardless of if Hornacek starts him, he will see more minutes than TJ and Booker (he has every game that TJ has started I believe). Guys like Kieff, Tucker, and Price, and imo even Tele and Chandler should be moved. A few of them may have value, which we'd want to capitalize on. Some just suck but we should move them to get them away from the locker room and move the contracts.

Also, the key is for our young talent to develop. I don't think we'd necessarily win without Hornacek, but if he stays and our guys like Len, Booker, Warren, Bledsoe, and Knight go a full year without defensive improvement, I'm not sure that's worth jumping from like the 8th pick to the top 5. My biggest issue with Hornacek is there has been 0 improvement in team areas despite obvious improvement in many players' individual skills. I have little faith that our youngsters are learning how to properly defend and play smart offense under jeff. For as much as everyone hates this team, and they are ugly to watch, we do have real young talent in Booker, Warren, Len, Knight, and Bledsoe (hell, even arguably Archie), the development of which as a team/unit should be a priority. I don't see the team development, even though I see the individual skills getting better. Perhaps Jeff is better suited to be an assistant or a trainer at this point.

The Suns possess some individual talent, but the issues that you are describing are probably always going to be there, more or less, with this set of personnel—at least on the offensive end. The only real way to change them will be through roster reconstruction or the acquisition of a guy who makes the game easier for those around him—in other words, a true franchise player.

People said the same thing about the Atlanta Hawks, who replaced the head coach and saw a lot of the same players suddenly become "heady, high IQ" guys. Hell, look at Golden State after switching out Jackson for Kerr. Coaching matters. This inherent and steadfast belief that players are either high IQ or low IQ and cannot change is simply faulty.

Do you really want to compare Golden State in 2014 to Phoenix as we approach 2016? Of course a coach can make a difference, but the personnel needs to be in place. The Warriors already possessed the personnel. Stephen Curry was already the best, or most talented, off-the-dribble shooter in NBA history, and Golden State was not a "low IQ" team at all. Golden State had defeated a 57-win Denver team in the First Round in 2013 and seriously challenged San Antonio in the next round before losing in six games. In 2014, the Warriors barely lost to the Clippers in seven games in the First Round—and Golden State probably would have won had either Andrew Bogut been healthy or had the referees not missed a clear foul by Chris Paul on Curry at the end of Game Three of that series. The Warriors went from very good to great, but the Suns are very far from being very good.

The Hawks being a "low IQ" team had more to do with Josh Smith and his shot selection. During the same summer that Atlanta hired Mike Budenholzer, the Hawks allowed Smith to depart via free agency and replaced him by inking Paull Millsap, who has always constituted a "high IQ" player. (In fact, on another board, I suggested that the Suns trade Amar'e Stoudemire for Millsap back in 2009.) Al Horford was not a "low IQ" player, nor was Kyle Korver, who is also a much better shooter than anyone currently on the Suns. Jeff Teague, meanwhile, was a truer point guard and a more fluid penetrator and distributor than any of Phoenix's guards. So, no, I do not believe that Budenholzer turned a "low IQ" team into a "high IQ" team, either. His coaching and system eventually upgraded the club, sure, but he possessed the necessary pieces.

The Suns are at least two significant players short. To be a credible playoff team, they would need two of the three among Horford, Millsap, and Korver, or they would need Draymond Green and Andre Iguodala from Golden State. Most likely, the only way that a team led by Bledsoe and Knight will achieve success is with a facilitating forward, such as Green or—dare I say it—Boris Diaw from ten years ago, who can really pass, who can score inside and out, and who also plays defense. Green, of course, is a top-ten player in the league.

Players can grow, but I do not know that a coach can turn a "low IQ" unit into a "high IQ" unit. If a coach can do so, though, Golden State and Atlanta do not constitute examples of that process occurring. Rather, the Warriors and Hawks represent nice collections of fairly intelligent and quite skilled pieces made even better by a coach and his system. The Suns, conversely, do not feature that kind of collection.

Remember, for example, that Mike D'Antoni did not turn Stephon Marbury into a "high IQ" point guard. Rather, the Suns traded Marbury shortly after D'Antoni took over as coach. Then, when D'Antoni became the Knicks' coach, he did not allow Marbury to see the floor and New York released the point guard soon enough. Likewise, Amar'e Stoudemire and Jason Richardson did not become "high IQ" players with the Suns. Since Phoenix supported them with "high IQ" players such as Steve Nash, Shawn Marion, Boris Diaw, and Grant Hill, however, the Suns could contend. Again, the current Suns needs someone who makes the guys around him better. Bledsoe and Knight really do not perform that task, nor did Marbury—and Marbury was actually a much better playmaker than Bledsoe and Knight. That last statement suggests how far away the Suns are, personnel-wise, right now.