The Official 2024 Offseason Thread

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Changing of the old guard to the new generation of younger more balanced and athletic and physical teams.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://burncitysports.com/2024/05/20/insider-state-of-suns-roster-is-expensive-and-restrictive/

Insider: State of Suns’ roster is ‘expensive and restrictive’
Brenden Mau May 20, 2024


ESPN INSIDER Bobby Marks calls the state of the Suns roster "expensive and restrictive." “Outside of hiring a new coach, the Suns have all but exhausted their options in how they can change the roster. For better or worse, Phoenix is married to the most expensive roster in NBA history … It is unlikely that owner Mat Ishbia will do an about-face and explore breaking up the big three of (Kevin) Durant, Devin Booker, and Bradley Beal. The teardown roster approach would represent a shift in philosophy for Ishbia.

“‘Would I rather have Brad Beal, Kevin Durant, and Devin Booker than just having two of those guys?’ Ishbia said to Ramona Shelburne in March. ‘I’d rather have all three a hundred times out of a hundred, and I don’t think there’s another GM or owner or CEO that wouldn’t say that exact same thing.’ “Beal has $160 million remaining on his contract and still maintains a no-trade clause. Booker’s $221 million supermax extension starts in July. Durant has two years and $106 million left on the extension he signed with Brooklyn in 2021.”

According to Hoops Hype, the Suns have three of the top-8 highest-paid players in the NBA for the 2024-25 season on the roster in Beal, Booker and Durant.

Marks adds: “Doubling down on this roster would have significant consequences.

“Phoenix is a second-apron team, a result of the $150 million owed next season to Booker, Beal and Durant. The salary of those three players is more than 14 teams’ total payroll in 2024-25. “‘I understand all the rules that come with the second apron. I understand exactly what the CBA tried to do,’ Ishbia told ESPN. ‘I read it, I know it inside and out, and we made a calculated decision that we think the team with the best players wins.'” However, it is very obvious that this strategy did not work out in Year 1 for the Suns. With that being said, president of basketball operations and general manager James Jones said last week that the Suns would not be trading any one of their Big 3,

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Marks continues: “Having the best players on the court, however, only works if the offense is organized and the team has a strong supporting cast. Phoenix ranked last in fourth-quarter offensive efficiency and bench points. Suns reserves shot an NBA-low 31.9% on 3-pointers. The lack of depth in the first round exposed that Beal, Booker and Durant have to play at an All-NBA level for Phoenix to be a contender. The Suns will need to get creative to find players who complement Beal, Booker and Durant. Because of the apron restrictions, Phoenix is not allowed to take back more money in a trade than it sends out. The Suns also cannot aggregate contracts to trade for a single player who makes more. For example, combining the salaries of Grayson Allen, Jusuf Nurkic and Nassir Little in a trade is not allowed even if the Suns take back less money. Allen is also not allowed to be traded until Oct. 16 because he signed an extension. Phoenix also cannot send out cash in a trade, use the $5.1 million taxpayer midlevel exception or acquire a player in a sign-and-trade. The $6.5 million trade exception created in the Cameron Payne trade is frozen. If the Suns finish the 2024-25 season over the second apron, their 2032 first-round pick is not available in a trade.

“Outside of a coaching change or the unlikely scenario of breaking up their high-priced veterans, the options to fill out the supporting cast include this year’s first-round pick, re-signing O’Neale and once again signing a slew of players to the veterans minimum exception.”

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The Suns are pretty handcuffed in what they can do, as Marks details, especially since they plan to keep the Big 3 together. Phoenix also has Allen beginning a four-year, $70-million extension next season and Nurkić with two years left on a four-year, $70-million deal of his own.

There are some options for the Suns, but limitations on trades and free agency will make it extremely difficult.

[sunskerr]

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Changing of the old guard to the new generation of younger more balanced and athletic and physical teams.

The talent pool is just way deeper now. A new generation of basketball players exposed to the best training techniques that were refined over decades and you can get those training techniques on your phone when you're at the gym.

You can get solid rotational players with any draft pick nowadays. Jones, in every interview he's ever given has made it clear that he hasn't realized this yet

The parity is a result of the amount of talent in the league now. Old guys declining on max deals that cap out their team vs younger stars who are as good/better on cheaper deals that allow their teams to get extra depth.

[bwgood77]

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Changing of the old guard to the new generation of younger more balanced and athletic and physical teams.

We will have 3 on that list this next season.

[Frank Lee]

ESPN Insider Bobby Marks summarizes the undercurrent of the last 50 pages

Thanks bro!

[Frank Lee]

Lets see… if we go with Mat Pishbea, then we gotta go with the Big Pee

[Ghost of Kleine]

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Changing of the old guard to the new generation of younger more balanced and athletic and physical teams.

We will have 3 on that list this next season.

Yep! And the most expensive roster in NBA history for a team that got swept in the first round too.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Changing of the old guard to the new generation of younger more balanced and athletic and physical teams.

The talent pool is just way deeper now. A new generation of basketball players exposed to the best training techniques that were refined over decades and you can get those training techniques on your phone when you're at the gym.

You can get solid rotational players with any draft pick nowadays. Jones, in every interview he's ever given has made it clear that he hasn't realized this yet

The parity is a result of the amount of talent in the league now. Old guys declining on max deals that cap out their team vs younger stars who are as good/better on cheaper deals that allow their teams to get extra depth.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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41:14 minutes in for the Suns discussion (James Jones- Suns won't break up the big 3 ( 3 stooges/ big Pee)
(for Frank).

[Qwigglez]

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I really like this idea with Beal playing the point as long as he's committed to working on his playmaking and chemistry with the big three AND Allen too, and maybe even some of the bench players as the offseason progresses. I like the Holiday comparison and do mostly believe that Beal with his size and athleticism could possibly aim for this outcome in the interest of contending! The key here with Beal will be IF he is truly open to playing as a playmaking combo guard with defensive ability like Holiday was for Milwaukee. AND if he's actually willing to commit his offseason to developing his passing/court vision. And his chemistry with our core players!

Having said this, even though his accomplishing this would help our cause immensely, it's just one part of many that will need to be corrected if we want to legitimately contend. So Beal can make these changes along with better continuity and we'll get more competitive and experience more wins and maybe a better postseason outcome, IF the Suns don't add significantly more size, more high-end athleticism, and lockdown defenders and an ELITE ATHLETIC RIM PROTECTOR, then our outcome may only be a slightly better but still underachieving from our goals of finals and championship contention.

It's not a bad comparison at all of Beal/Jrue. They are both 6'4, and actually Beal has a 6'7.5 wingspan which is one half inch longer than Jrue Holiday.

I know I've posted several trade ideas involving Beal, but I honestly think Beal/Booker/KD can be successful with the proper coach and I think the proper coach is Mike Budenholzer.

Just for context, the Bucks were ranked 15th in points per game in the 2017-18 season under Jason Kidd. Mike Budenholzer took over as the head coach in the 2018-19 season and this is the results:
2018-19 season: 118.1 points per game (ranked 1st) - team had Eric Bledsoe as PG - 2nd in 3PAs
2019-20 season: 118.7 points per game (ranked 1st)  - 4th in 3PAs
2020-21 season: 120.1 points per game (ranked 1st) - Jrue Holiday - 8th in 3PAs
2021-22 season: 115.5 points per game (ranked 3rd) - 5th in 3PAs
2022-23 season: 116.9 points per game (ranked 8th) - 4th in 3PAs

The Suns hiring Frank Vogel was such a huge blunder it makes you wonder why they even considered him at all when the teams he has coached have always been mediocre at best. The Lakers winning a Disneyland championship was likely the cause as to why the Suns chose Vogel, but if you look past that (and probably at that fact that he coached Lebron and AD) Vogel does not have a very impressive resume and was only successful because of the pedigree of players he got to coach.

Anyway, as far as the Suns improving, I agree that adding some size would be helpful. Keep Royce O'Neal as I like his size and we can likely give him a fair contract, where the Suns could trade him if necessary later.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

Changing of the old guard to the new generation of younger more balanced and athletic and physical teams.

We will have 3 on that list this next season.

Yep! And the most expensive roster in NBA history for a team that got swept in the first round too.

Yeah, and I read in a later post next year we will have 3 of the 8 highest paid players. lol. After this next year all 3 of those contracts will be viewed as horrible contracts.

[bwgood77]

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I really like this idea with Beal playing the point as long as he's committed to working on his playmaking and chemistry with the big three AND Allen too, and maybe even some of the bench players as the offseason progresses. I like the Holiday comparison and do mostly believe that Beal with his size and athleticism could possibly aim for this outcome in the interest of contending! The key here with Beal will be IF he is truly open to playing as a playmaking combo guard with defensive ability like Holiday was for Milwaukee. AND if he's actually willing to commit his offseason to developing his passing/court vision. And his chemistry with our core players!

Having said this, even though his accomplishing this would help our cause immensely, it's just one part of many that will need to be corrected if we want to legitimately contend. So Beal can make these changes along with better continuity and we'll get more competitive and experience more wins and maybe a better postseason outcome, IF the Suns don't add significantly more size, more high-end athleticism, and lockdown defenders and an ELITE ATHLETIC RIM PROTECTOR, then our outcome may only be a slightly better but still underachieving from our goals of finals and championship contention.

It's not a bad comparison at all of Beal/Jrue. They are both 6'4, and actually Beal has a 6'7.5 wingspan which is one half inch longer than Jrue Holiday.

I know I've posted several trade ideas involving Beal, but I honestly think Beal/Booker/KD can be successful with the proper coach and I think the proper coach is Mike Budenholzer.

Just for context, the Bucks were ranked 15th in points per game in the 2017-18 season under Jason Kidd. Mike Budenholzer took over as the head coach in the 2018-19 season and this is the results:
2018-19 season: 118.1 points per game (ranked 1st) - team had Eric Bledsoe as PG - 2nd in 3PAs
2019-20 season: 118.7 points per game (ranked 1st)  - 4th in 3PAs
2020-21 season: 120.1 points per game (ranked 1st) - Jrue Holiday - 8th in 3PAs
2021-22 season: 115.5 points per game (ranked 3rd) - 5th in 3PAs
2022-23 season: 116.9 points per game (ranked 8th) - 4th in 3PAs

The Suns hiring Frank Vogel was such a huge blunder it makes you wonder why they even considered him at all when the teams he has coached have always been mediocre at best. The Lakers winning a Disneyland championship was likely the cause as to why the Suns chose Vogel, but if you look past that (and probably at that fact that he coached Lebron and AD) Vogel does not have a very impressive resume and was only successful because of the pedigree of players he got to coach.

Anyway, as far as the Suns improving, I agree that adding some size would be helpful. Keep Royce O'Neal as I like his size and we can likely give him a fair contract, where the Suns could trade him if necessary later.

Yeah, hiring Vogel with that roster was like hiring Porter for the SSOL roster. Hiring Bud is more like going to Gentry (who basically just re-installed D'Antoni's offense)....hopefully we have similar success or more...though that team had very nice depth. An entire solid 2nd unit with Dragic, Barbosa, Dudley and Frye with a dose of Lou. Though Frye ended up playing a lot with the starters and Lopez more with the bench even though Lopez started.

Anyway, that team was deep.

[garrick]

Read on Twitter

Changing of the old guard to the new generation of younger more balanced and athletic and physical teams.

The talent pool is just way deeper now. A new generation of basketball players exposed to the best training techniques that were refined over decades and you can get those training techniques on your phone when you're at the gym.

You can get solid rotational players with any draft pick nowadays. Jones, in every interview he's ever given has made it clear that he hasn't realized this yet

The parity is a result of the amount of talent in the league now. Old guys declining on max deals that cap out their team vs younger stars who are as good/better on cheaper deals that allow their teams to get extra depth.

I'm sure teams like Miami have detailed scouting reports on most NBA players but I would not be surprised in the least if JJ doesn't have anything like this in place due to his most unimaginative signings and also disastrous trades.

Hopefully Ishbia can hire an actual analytics guy and beef up the nonexisting scouting team because we really need to do some bargain hunting to find a diamond in the rough similar to how Miami keeps finding these gems from the undrafted pool.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

Changing of the old guard to the new generation of younger more balanced and athletic and physical teams.

The talent pool is just way deeper now. A new generation of basketball players exposed to the best training techniques that were refined over decades and you can get those training techniques on your phone when you're at the gym.

You can get solid rotational players with any draft pick nowadays. Jones, in every interview he's ever given has made it clear that he hasn't realized this yet

The parity is a result of the amount of talent in the league now. Old guys declining on max deals that cap out their team vs younger stars who are as good/better on cheaper deals that allow their teams to get extra depth.

I'm sure teams like Miami have detailed scouting reports on most NBA players but I would not be surprised in the least if JJ doesn't have anything like this in place due to his most unimaginative signings and also disastrous trades.

Hopefully Ishbia can hire an actual analytics guy and beef up the nonexisting scouting team because we really need to do some bargain hunting to find a diamond in the rough similar to how Miami keeps finding these gems from the undrafted pool.

Evan Miya would be great as an NBA analytics consultant, Also I'd like to see Ishbia consider adding Sachin Gupta to their GM team as he's another very gifted basketball strategist that just happened to create ESPNS' trade machine, and with the Minnesota lead the Timberwolves Strategy, Performance and Analytics operations for the team.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

I really like this idea with Beal playing the point as long as he's committed to working on his playmaking and chemistry with the big three AND Allen too, and maybe even some of the bench players as the offseason progresses. I like the Holiday comparison and do mostly believe that Beal with his size and athleticism could possibly aim for this outcome in the interest of contending! The key here with Beal will be IF he is truly open to playing as a playmaking combo guard with defensive ability like Holiday was for Milwaukee. AND if he's actually willing to commit his offseason to developing his passing/court vision. And his chemistry with our core players!

Having said this, even though his accomplishing this would help our cause immensely, it's just one part of many that will need to be corrected if we want to legitimately contend. So Beal can make these changes along with better continuity and we'll get more competitive and experience more wins and maybe a better postseason outcome, IF the Suns don't add significantly more size, more high-end athleticism, and lockdown defenders and an ELITE ATHLETIC RIM PROTECTOR, then our outcome may only be a slightly better but still underachieving from our goals of finals and championship contention.

It's not a bad comparison at all of Beal/Jrue. They are both 6'4, and actually Beal has a 6'7.5 wingspan which is one half inch longer than Jrue Holiday.

I know I've posted several trade ideas involving Beal, but I honestly think Beal/Booker/KD can be successful with the proper coach and I think the proper coach is Mike Budenholzer.

Just for context, the Bucks were ranked 15th in points per game in the 2017-18 season under Jason Kidd. Mike Budenholzer took over as the head coach in the 2018-19 season and this is the results:
2018-19 season: 118.1 points per game (ranked 1st) - team had Eric Bledsoe as PG - 2nd in 3PAs
2019-20 season: 118.7 points per game (ranked 1st)  - 4th in 3PAs
2020-21 season: 120.1 points per game (ranked 1st) - Jrue Holiday - 8th in 3PAs
2021-22 season: 115.5 points per game (ranked 3rd) - 5th in 3PAs
2022-23 season: 116.9 points per game (ranked 8th) - 4th in 3PAs

The Suns hiring Frank Vogel was such a huge blunder it makes you wonder why they even considered him at all when the teams he has coached have always been mediocre at best. The Lakers winning a Disneyland championship was likely the cause as to why the Suns chose Vogel, but if you look past that (and probably at that fact that he coached Lebron and AD) Vogel does not have a very impressive resume and was only successful because of the pedigree of players he got to coach.

Anyway, as far as the Suns improving, I agree that adding some size would be helpful. Keep Royce O'Neal as I like his size and we can likely give him a fair contract, where the Suns could trade him if necessary later.

The Suns hiring Frank Vogel was such a huge blunder it makes you wonder why they even considered him at all when the teams he has coached have always been mediocre at best

The thing about Vogel that I don't think many people actually considered is that Vogel "was intentionally a stopgap/ lame duck" coach. He was hired because we were waiting on Budenholzer (1st option) who turned us down first, and then on Nick Nurse (2nd option) who chose Philly over us. Vogel was our 3rd choice, and a stopgap option because we all hoped that Lue would leave the Clippers to sign with us. Ishbia didn't care about the money he gave Vogel to try and keep the team somewhat solid and competitive until Lue would've (they hoped) become available for us. He was never meant to last here, It just became Budenholzer once Lue decided not to leave the paperclips. They were never fully invested in Vogel, because if they were, they would've built the roster around defensive specialists and a stronger defensive center option for him to work with based upon his coaching style.

It's just what it is! Lue was always our number-one choice, and when that fell through, we jumped back to Budenholzer. Hopefully it all works out for the better though.

[lilfishi22]

This is gonna be interesting:

Bobby Marks Joins To Discuss How The Suns Can Revamp Their Roster This Summer

https://m.youtube.com/live/B_wNe3yKUuk

Watch on YouTube

Thanks for sharing this man. :thumbs-up:
I'll be very curious to hear what Marks says our best options are! Hopefully something very innovative or under the radar in the way of a three-team deal that returns one of B Lopez, Capela, or some other starting center option and other impact options.

Pretty cool to hear Marks speak so highly of our new (incoming) assistant GM in Matt Tellum. I admit, I didn't know a thing about him before but after a bit of research and hearing this from Marks himself is a positive sign.

Bashing Ish is the easy and the cool thing to do now but while we are very limited because of the salary cap rules, it's clear Ish is doing whatever he can outside of those rules to continue to build on the team. Getting a guy like Tellum may or may not pay dividends but the fact that we've gone out and probably put out a pretty nice offer to a guy who's apparently one of the best capologist/strategists shows Ish is trying to improve on the edges where he can. Likewise with the Bud hiring, I absolutely see him as a guy who can do great things with this team but I also think he can work with a retooled team as well should we go down the retool/reload path.

Regardless of the direction we decide to pursue after this season or the season after, I think Ish is putting the right guys in the right position to take this team forward. Now JJ is the only anomaly and I don't know if he's going to be retained long term considering he was before Ish's time but right now it looks like Ish wants to keep at least one stable voice in the front office while we still have this Big 3.

[wheezy]

Can we just stop calling them ‘The Big Three’ ???

Because until they play like it…..they are not…

Book and the Chipmunks?

The Three Amigos?

The Supremes?

The Three Stooges?

Ishbia's Angles?

What we gon call our TRIO Frank??

Frank is the official Suns board nickname giver™.... just let him cook and stay clear of the kitchen.

[SunsRback4Good]

Can we just stop calling them ‘The Big Three’ ???

Because until they play like it…..they are not…

Book and the Chipmunks?

The Three Amigos?

The Supremes?

The Three Stooges?

Ishbia's Angles?

What we gon call our TRIO Frank??

Frank is the official Suns board nickname giver™.... just let him cook and stay clear of the kitchen.

But I love cooking in the kitchen it’s my specialty.

[Fo-Real]

Can we just stop calling them ‘The Big Three’ ???

Because until they play like it…..they are not…

Book and the Chipmunks?

The Three Amigos?

The Supremes?

The Three Stooges?

Ishbia's Angles?

What we gon call our TRIO Frank??

OK this one made me laugh. Even though you spelled angels wrong.

In a hurry and at work! Hit send and didn't get a chance to come back until now like 9 hrs later!! DAMN IT!!

[Ghost of Kleine]

This is gonna be interesting:



https://m.youtube.com/live/B_wNe3yKUuk

Watch on YouTube

Thanks for sharing this man. :thumbs-up:
I'll be very curious to hear what Marks says our best options are! Hopefully something very innovative or under the radar in the way of a three-team deal that returns one of B Lopez, Capela, or some other starting center option and other impact options.

Pretty cool to hear Marks speak so highly of our new (incoming) assistant GM in Matt Tellum. I admit, I didn't know a thing about him before but after a bit of research and hearing this from Marks himself is a positive sign.

Bashing Ish is the easy and the cool thing to do now but while we are very limited because of the salary cap rules, it's clear Ish is doing whatever he can outside of those rules to continue to build on the team. Getting a guy like Tellum may or may not pay dividends but the fact that we've gone out and probably put out a pretty nice offer to a guy who's apparently one of the best capologist/strategists shows Ish is trying to improve on the edges where he can. Likewise with the Bud hiring, I absolutely see him as a guy who can do great things with this team but I also think he can work with a retooled team as well should we go down the retool/reload path.

Regardless of the direction we decide to pursue after this season or the season after, I think Ish is putting the right guys in the right position to take this team forward. Now JJ is the only anomaly and I don't know if he's going to be retained long term considering he was before Ish's time but right now it looks like Ish wants to keep at least one stable voice in the front office while we still have this Big 3.

Bashing Ish is the easy and the cool thing to do now but while we are very limited because of the salary cap rules, it's clear Ish is doing whatever he can outside of those rules to continue to build on the team. Getting a guy like Tellum may or may not pay dividends but the fact that we've gone out and probably put out a pretty nice offer to a guy who's apparently one of the best capologist/strategists shows Ish is trying to improve on the edges where he can.

I like Ish and his commitment to this team and franchise, and his willingness to spend is truly a welcome change too. I don't even mind his over-exuberant nature and overt bordering-on fanatical optimism. But he's obviously getting well-deserved criticism for the very impetuous and shortsighted ego-driven decisions he himself made that put us in this very situation that he now absent of hindsight has to fix. Right now he's just reaping what he's sown himself, nothing more nothing less.

I like that he's trying to make better decisions to maybe be able to dig us out of the hole that he again put us in. And for the sake of our franchises' future, I really hope it works.