Suns Offseason Thread 3: Spurned for the Spurs

[AtheJ415]

Yes. We do. You just are one of those people who thinks that we don't know anything that hasn't actually happened on the court yet despite all basic logic. So you admit that Chris Paul and James Harden wouldn't be the best back court in basketball? After all, they haven't had an opportunity to show it? Or maybe we can just know that they are good players who compliment each other and therefore would be great together.

Oh boy. Let's start small. I provided two stats from last season regarding the backcourt of Bledsoe and Knight. This is actual data that occurred on the court, not speculation about the future. I even put them in bold. Let's look at one of these and see where (or if) you disagree and why.

In net points per 100 possessions, the combination of Bledsoe-Knight averaged -2.9. To compare, Bledsoe-Dragic was +2.8 and Bledsoe-IT was +4.4. Here are starting NBA two-man combinations charted:



As you can see, -2.9 is quite a way to the wrong side of that line. Obviously the sample size is small, but that's the data so far. So we certainly don't "know that our back court is still one of the best in basketball". In fact, the empirical evidence so far clearly gives us reason to doubt that.

Next, we might discuss the statistics of how Brandon Knight affected his teammates while playing with the Bucks. But let's start with the above data for now.

I think we need to give this backcourt a chance and not judge it based on a few games after a madness based trade deadline switch. That isn't good data, and you have to know it.

Nope. It's already been pre-determined. The past=the future. Trading Isaiah Thomas and Goran for Knight means our backcourt now sucks because Knight didn't come in and play as well immediately as those guys who had a full offseason to work together. We'd be one of the worst teams in the league if not for the almighty Tyson Chandler, who is so good that he will single-handedly pull us into playoff contention, and so now we are forced to alter the entire course of our team's strategy due to the almighty Tyson. Hell, our backcourt sucks, and Len, Kieff, and Tucker suck too, and yet we can't tank because Tyson Chandler is THAT good.

And I can prove it with stats.

Here's what else I can definitively prove with stats based on similar faulty causal logic:

[JTrain]

Right, and so your premise holds only if Brandon Knight and Eric Bledsoe's future together is determined by how they played over an incredibly small sample of games together for the first time ever with no real practice time. So again, real stats based on a faulty premise that is unlikely to hold going forward. Do I need to show my graph of world temperatures v. number of pirates? Because that's barely less valuable than all of what you've shown.

So you have no empirical data to present.

[AtheJ415]

I don't understand why we can't simply look at the fact that Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight are 2 of the top young PGs in basketball and judge them based on the fact that it's pretty reasonable to assume they will find a way to be more effective together than their less-talented competition.

[blacksun]

Yes. We do. You just are one of those people who thinks that we don't know anything that hasn't actually happened on the court yet despite all basic logic. So you admit that Chris Paul and James Harden wouldn't be the best back court in basketball? After all, they haven't had an opportunity to show it? Or maybe we can just know that they are good players who compliment each other and therefore would be great together.

Oh boy. Let's start small. I provided two stats from last season regarding the backcourt of Bledsoe and Knight. This is actual data that occurred on the court, not speculation about the future. I even put them in bold. Let's look at one of these and see where (or if) you disagree and why.

In net points per 100 possessions, the combination of Bledsoe-Knight averaged -2.9. To compare, Bledsoe-Dragic was +2.8 and Bledsoe-IT was +4.4. Here are starting NBA two-man combinations charted:



As you can see, -2.9 is quite a way to the wrong side of that line. Obviously the sample size is small, but that's the data so far. So we certainly don't "know that our back court is still one of the best in basketball". In fact, the empirical evidence so far clearly gives us reason to doubt that.

Next, we might discuss the statistics of how Brandon Knight affected his teammates while playing with the Bucks. But let's start with the above data for now.

Right, and so your premise holds only if Brandon Knight and Eric Bledsoe's future together is determined by how they played over an incredibly small sample of games together for the first time ever with no real practice time. So again, real stats based on a faulty premise that is unlikely to hold going forward. Do I need to show my graph of world temperatures v. number of pirates? Because that's barely less valuable than all of what you've shown.

It is a small sample size but it is there. On the other hand you have no data to back your claim that Bled-Knight is one of the best backcourts in the NBA. Granted I see your argument that Bledsoe and Knight on their own are good players, so they must make at a decent backcourt at least. But for me, Ill call it when I see it. And we havent seen it last season.

[KLEON]

With the Suns not getting LMA does that mean Bledsoe will get traded?

[JohnWall2]

Bledsoe for Favors?

Deal. Almost impossible, but deal.

I'd do it

Absolutely. + 1

[JTrain]

It is a small sample size but it is there. On the other hand you have no data to back your claim that Bled-Knight is one of the best backcourts in the NBA. Granted I see your argument that Bledsoe and Knight on their own are good players, so they must make at a decent backcourt at least. But for me, Ill call it when I see it. And we havent seen it last season.

Thank you. This is really the reasonable point I was trying to make, stated more succinctly. I'm not saying they will be bad. I hope they improve and are great. I'm simply saying we have no data to know that they are one of the best backcourts in the league so far.

[AtheJ415]

Right, and so your premise holds only if Brandon Knight and Eric Bledsoe's future together is determined by how they played over an incredibly small sample of games together for the first time ever with no real practice time. So again, real stats based on a faulty premise that is unlikely to hold going forward. Do I need to show my graph of world temperatures v. number of pirates? Because that's barely less valuable than all of what you've shown.

So you have no empirical data to present.

No. I have straight up logic. Just like I could reasonably say that a back court of Kyrie Irving and James Harden would be one of the best backcourts in basketball, and that even if they teamed up and struggled together for a small amount of games, they still would be. You are of the opinion that nobody could say Kyrie and Harden would be one of the best backcourts because it hasn't happened yet.

On the other hand, I presented my empirical evidence on pirates preventing global warming. Statistically it is there. You can't dispute it. Unless you use basic logic. I'm using basic logic. You're using straight numbers that isolate logic. That's how Daryl Morey ended up paying Jeremy Lin an insane amount of money.

[bwgood77]

Well it seems clear that 2/3 of the fans (at least the ones here) don't want to get rid of Kieff unless it's a great deal. I think I will change it to Bledsoe..I expect more to want to keep him but not sure.

[KLEON]

I don't understand why we can't simply look at the fact that Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight are 2 of the top young PGs in basketball and judge them based on the fact that it's pretty reasonable to assume they will find a way to be more effective together than their less-talented competition.

I just really can't watch another season of his bricks and turnovers.

[bwgood77]

It is a small sample size but it is there. On the other hand you have no data to back your claim that Bled-Knight is one of the best backcourts in the NBA. Granted I see your argument that Bledsoe and Knight on their own are good players, so they must make at a decent backcourt at least. But for me, Ill call it when I see it. And we havent seen it last season.

Thank you. This is really the reasonable point I was trying to make, stated more succinctly. I'm not saying they will be bad. I hope they improve and are great. I'm simply saying we have no data to know that they are one of the best backcourts in the league so far.

Yes. I think your guys' argument was pointless since you both think they are capable of being good together. I suppose some people just love a good debate.

[bwgood77]

Can someone take a screen shot of the current poll results and post them in this thread? Then I will change it but I don't want that info lost. Thanks.

[JTrain]

Can someone post the fat face guy again?

[JTrain]

Can someone take a screen shot of the current poll results and post them in this thread? Then I will change it but I don't want that info lost. Thanks.

Only for you, dear.

[Funky Tut]

We are not an attractive market for high end FA

I disagree. I think the biggest issue have been Phoenix's recent struggles, especially with Blanks as GM. If they start winning, everything will take care of itself. The whole "not an attractive market for high end FA" rhetoric is also something that I don't buy. The best players in the NBA are in Cleveland and Oklahoma City. Meanwhile the Lakers and Knicks got shut out by all the major free agents.


With the advent of social media, the market matters less, guys can get paid anywhere but FA's still want to go to a team with stability and one that has been in the playoffs. I fully believe that the Suns can reel in "the big fish" but there has to be stability and they have to win some games. If they can make a playoff run, if the backcourt gels and the young players turn potential into production, I don't think they'll have a hard time finding a player who wants to join in next year.

I desperately want Phx to be a top end FA destination but empirical evidence has shown otherwise. We haven't landed a top tier FA since Nash a decade ago. Cleveland has long been a door mat franchise but has been very lucky in lotto placement and just so happens that the best player in the NBA is from Ohio. OKC has drafted well and that is why they are in the position they are in. They drafted the likes of KD, Westbrook, and Harden because they were terrible in Seattle and early days transitioning to OKC. I agree that winning is a major factor, no one would ever be attracted to Cleveland or OKC if they were mediocre to poor teams, no one. If we can somehow pull out of this mediocrity fest and start winning consistently that will help attract top tier FA's.

[KLEON]

Now what?

Sign Brandon Bass

OH yes

[KLEON]

BTW the people who say that Amare is done we are not asking him to play heavy minutes and he still has a lot to offer especially offensively. The only negative is his defense but Chandler and Len can overshadow that

[bwgood77]

OK, you will see I customized the poll for my option but I'd keep him unless we could trade him for Porzingis..

I'm guessing more fans want to keep Bledsoe than Markieff but just curious with the new poll. So two thirds with Markieff. I'm guessing like 70-80-% for Bledsoe.

[AtheJ415]

BTW the people who say that Amare is done we are not asking him to play heavy minutes and he still has a lot to offer especially offensively. The only negative is his defense but Chandler and Len can overshadow that

He's fine as a stop gap, but I personally would much rather have someone who can help us when we're actually trying to contend, or who can at least be traded for something valuable if he improves. Amare fits neither because of his age. I'd much rather have Serafin (25) or Hill (27).

[SarcasticSun]

Well the Aldridge stuff was fun while it lasted, obviously I wanted him like everyone else. Who knows though, it may end up being a good thing we didn't get him. Our main concern now is Kieff obviously.. Who is probably going to be the most disgruntled player in the league this coming season. I hope he can get over it. He is a solid player. Also glad we cleared up the SF position for Warren. I know this may sound ridiculous but he could be a bigger star than Aldridge some day. I've been calling it since before we drafted him, Warren looks like he can be an allstar and I believe he will be.