Game 12: Phoenix Suns (6-5) @ Detroit Pistons (3-8)

[RaisingArizona]

Another fugly game, jeez. The only good thing about tonight was Tolliver not seeing the court.

Growing a little tired of Hornaceck's rotations/rational behind them. Monroe **** abused Plumlee, in the first especially, and he keeps him in. Len comes in, defends extremely well and then doesn't see the court anymore because of two fouls? Also Dragic is balling and then he rots away on the bench forever? Don't get it.

I really don't understand why Len isn't playing way more than Plumlee now. I get the foul trouble today, but Monroe was having his way with Plumlee, not Len.

Too bad we still don't have Frye... His defense at the end would have given the Pistons a lay up./greenfont

[sunskerr]

Complaining about Frye won't do anything though.

Starting Len certainly looks like an option ala Robin Lopez's sophomore season (when he moved into the starting 5 over Frye). For a team that's constantly been saying "whoever plays well will get the time", there sure seems to be some hesitation to move Len up. Maybe I'm missing something really obvious. So if there's anything obvious in the advanced stats that I'm missing, please share.

I'd also prefer it if Tucker returned to his starting role. He still has a capable 3 ball and probably plays better defense than Marcus Morris.

[Saberestar]

Complaining about Frye won't do anything though.

Starting Len certainly looks like an option ala Robin Lopez's sophomore season (when he moved into the starting 5 over Frye). For a team that's constantly been saying "whoever plays well will get the time", there sure seems to be some hesitation to move Len up. Maybe I'm missing something really obvious. So if there's anything obvious in the advanced stats that I'm missing, please share.

I'd also prefer it if Tucker returned to his starting role. He still has a capable 3 ball and probably plays better defense than Marcus Morris.

I think Horny knows that Len is playing better and is more important than Plumlee right now on our team, but he understands too that Len is very young and his condition is not totally there to play 30 minutes per game or even more. With that in mind and thinking about early foul trouble, is better to have Len on the bench for the first 6-7 minutes of the game and third quarter.

About Tucker, I really like his presence on the court. It doesn't matter if he is starter or not, because he will play 25 minutes per night at least, Hornacek loves him.His post defense is uncredible, he can defend almost every SG, SF, PF or C in the league.
Yesterday he defended Monroe better than Plumlee, Markieff or Len...he really knows how to defend, it is not only intensity or hustle, it is skills, fundamentals and anticipation.

[sunskerr]

I think Horny knows that Len is playing better and is more important than Plumlee right now on our team, but he understands too that Len is very young and his condition is not totally there to play 30 minutes per game or even more. With that in mind and thinking about early foul trouble, is better to have Len on the bench for the first 6-7 minutes of the game and third quarter.

About Tucker, I really like his presence on the court. It doesn't matter if he is starter or not, because he will play 25 minutes per night at least, Hornacek loves him.His post defense is uncredible, he can defend almost every SG, SF, PF or C in the league.
Yesterday he defended Monroe better than Plumlee, Markieff or Len...he really knows how to defend, it is not only intensity or hustle, it is skills, fundamentals and anticipation.

It'd certainly be nice to have Tucker starting because we can immediately stick him on the opponents best wing/back court player. I also feel like his skill set is more complimentary to our point guards. And on Len: While he's probably not up to 30 mpg conditioning, certainly 24 minutes seems doable.

[TASTIC]

I love Green, but he can't play crunch time unless we're down 4-5 and need points.

He is HORRENDOUS at both time management and taking care of the ball when protecting a lead.

I'm on board the start Tucker band-wagon, I like Mook scoring when he wants against other team's reserves and as others have said, Tucker sets the defensive tone right out of the gate.

[NTB]

Len doesn't play much and doesn't start because Hornacek doesn't want to hurt Plumlee i guess. Yeah Plumlee is playing bad but making him worse is not a good idea for our thin C rotation.

I mean, if Len plays like 30-35 mins a game and Plumlee plays 10-15, then what happens if Len's got injured? You have only Plumlee who is dissatisfied and unmotivated.

[Jarlaxle0204]

One of our best 5-man units is Thomas-Tucker-Green-Mook-Plumlee. There's a lot of size, shooting and no one on that team is a good enough ball handler to take the ball away from Thomas, so he has free reign over the plays. Also in that lineup, Thomas gets screens after screens after screns from Mook, Tucker and Plumlee while Green is spreading the floor. When he's cleared of his primary defender, that's when he's at his best. He's a fantastic offensive player and his defensive deficiencies can certainly be masked, he just needs to be put in the right lineup.

I like this idea. I really think we need to go back to the 2010 (Alvin Gentry) way of rotations where we basically sub out an entire unit for another one. Have Bledsoe-Dragic-Warren-Kieff-Len start and then sub with the lineup mentioned above and then reinsert starting lineup, etc. Keeps both units fresh. You can ride the better playing unit each night, throws entirely different looks at opponents and it improves chemistry amongst the teammates within those units because they get to play more with each other and build familiarity.

[NavLDO]

One of our best 5-man units is Thomas-Tucker-Green-Mook-Plumlee. There's a lot of size, shooting and no one on that team is a good enough ball handler to take the ball away from Thomas, so he has free reign over the plays. Also in that lineup, Thomas gets screens after screens after screns from Mook, Tucker and Plumlee while Green is spreading the floor. When he's cleared of his primary defender, that's when he's at his best. He's a fantastic offensive player and his defensive deficiencies can certainly be masked, he just needs to be put in the right lineup.

I like this idea. I really think we need to go back to the 2010 (Alvin Gentry) way of rotations where we basically sub out an entire unit for another one. Have Bledsoe-Dragic-Warren-Kieff-Len start and then sub with the lineup mentioned above and then reinsert starting lineup, etc. Keeps both units fresh. You can ride the better playing unit each night, throws entirely different looks at opponents and it improves chemistry amongst the teammates within those units because they get to play more with each other and build familiarity.

And notice something about that lineup? That should be viewed as out "non-future" line-up. And maybe they don't do a full 10 man rotation by subbing one entire unit for the other, but maybe "sub-units". One sub-unit of EB-Dragic-Len--these three "always" play together, at least as much as foul trouble, etc., allow, and you sub in the other sub-unit for them, the IT-Green-Plumlee unit. Basically, IT should never see EB or Dragic on the floor at the same time, and vice versa. You can fill in the SF-PF as best determined, but I'd do my best, starting now, to get Warren in with the EB-Dragic-Len unit--again, our future. And understand that Warren's not quite ready for starter minutes, but he should only be in with EB and Dragic and Len when he does come in. And let PJ play with the IT unit, as much as practical, but he can start until Warren is ready.

I mean, so far, the evidence points strongly to IT needing to play with a traditional 2, so Green or Goodwin or Z. Dragic (when ready). And if at all possible, or rather, as soon as possible, make out starting 5 be EB-Dragic-Warren-Kieff-Len, and out 2nd unit be IT-Green-PJ-Marcus-Plumlee, and if Marcus can't hack playing the 4 with that unit, we'll need to work Randolph or Tolliver in.

[Scutt]

Len doesn't play much and doesn't start because Hornacek doesn't want to hurt Plumlee i guess. Yeah Plumlee is playing bad but making him worse is not a good idea for our thin C rotation.

I mean, if Len plays like 30-35 mins a game and Plumlee plays 10-15, then what happens if Len's got injured? You have only Plumlee who is dissatisfied and unmotivated.

First of all, I cant see how benching Plumlee would hurt him, if anything I would think it would build his confidence up some by getting to go against inferior talent. Secondly, limiting the minutes of Alex Len, our #5 pick who is 20 years old,7'1, and showing some great potential, purely to keep Miles Plumlee, a 26 year old role player, happy? That is foolish, Alex Len should only be limited in his minutes because of poor play or health, not because the Suns should be catering to a role player who got off to a hot start with his first real NBA minutes. Miles Plumlee may polish/refine his game some, but he pretty much has shown what he is at this point. Alex Len has a much higher ceiling. I would really hope Hornacek/ our front office are not that dumb, but I guess you never know. It does bother me that Len didn't get more minutes this game. I don't care about his 2 fouls, Plumlee was getting abused out there. The other night, Alex Len had 3 fouls, with 8 points and 3 rebounds. Hornacek left him in and he finished with 17 points and 11 rebounds with 4 fouls. They give you 6 for a reason, let Alex Len use them.

[Christine-In-AZ]

Do the Suns get to play OKC before Durant and Westbrook come back?

Would be total bull s**t if we don't. Other teams are racking up the easy wins against them now while their down.

Edit: Just checked. So looks like we'll get MAYBE one game against them without Westbrook and 2 games for sure with Westbrook and Durant back. Suns have absolutely the worst luck.

Looking for schedule excuses is just weak in my book. I'd rather play the Thunder at full strength (or any team) particularly this season where evaluation, development and progress supersede far-fetched deep playoff thoughts.

Oh BTW...The Spurs don't play the Thunder until Christmas Day, March 25th & April 7th ...should they be whining?

Dallas? December 28th, February 19th, March 16th, April 1st ...are Mavs getting screwed?

Lakers? December 19th, March 1, March 24th ...I DO wish those 3 games were much much earlier.

[JTrain]

Turnover % leaders (15 MP/G min.):

#24 Bledsoe (20.3)
#85 Plumlee (15.5)
#100 Len (14.6)
#135 Tucker (12.8)
#140 IT (12.6)
#153 Dragic (12.2)
#168 Keef (11.4)
#237 Green (8.1)
#247 Mook (7.6)

[bigfoot]

Len doesn't play much and doesn't start because Hornacek doesn't want to hurt Plumlee i guess. Yeah Plumlee is playing bad but making him worse is not a good idea for our thin C rotation.

I mean, if Len plays like 30-35 mins a game and Plumlee plays 10-15, then what happens if Len's got injured? You have only Plumlee who is dissatisfied and unmotivated.

First of all, I cant see how benching Plumlee would hurt him, if anything I would think it would build his confidence up some by getting to go against inferior talent. Secondly, limiting the minutes of Alex Len, our #5 pick who is 20 years old,7'1, and showing some great potential, purely to keep Miles Plumlee, a 26 year old role player, happy? That is foolish, Alex Len should only be limited in his minutes because of poor play or health, not because the Suns should be catering to a role player who got off to a hot start with his first real NBA minutes. Miles Plumlee may polish/refine his game some, but he pretty much has shown what he is at this point. Alex Len has a much higher ceiling. I would really hope Hornacek/ our front office are not that dumb, but I guess you never know. It does bother me that Len didn't get more minutes this game. I don't care about his 2 fouls, Plumlee was getting abused out there. The other night, Alex Len had 3 fouls, with 8 points and 3 rebounds. Hornacek left him in and he finished with 17 points and 11 rebounds with 4 fouls. They give you 6 for a reason, let Alex Len use them.

Agreed. Len made 2ptrs from 16 to 19 feet last night ... something Plumlee just doesn't have in his offensive toolbox. Plumlee did a great job rebounding and plays okay defense ... journeyman center. He will never have Len's offensive ability.

[suns91fan]

Len doesn't play much and doesn't start because Hornacek doesn't want to hurt Plumlee i guess. Yeah Plumlee is playing bad but making him worse is not a good idea for our thin C rotation.

I mean, if Len plays like 30-35 mins a game and Plumlee plays 10-15, then what happens if Len's got injured? You have only Plumlee who is dissatisfied and unmotivated.

First of all, I cant see how benching Plumlee would hurt him, if anything I would think it would build his confidence up some by getting to go against inferior talent. Secondly, limiting the minutes of Alex Len, our #5 pick who is 20 years old,7'1, and showing some great potential, purely to keep Miles Plumlee, a 26 year old role player, happy? That is foolish, Alex Len should only be limited in his minutes because of poor play or health, not because the Suns should be catering to a role player who got off to a hot start with his first real NBA minutes. Miles Plumlee may polish/refine his game some, but he pretty much has shown what he is at this point. Alex Len has a much higher ceiling. I would really hope Hornacek/ our front office are not that dumb, but I guess you never know. It does bother me that Len didn't get more minutes this game. I don't care about his 2 fouls, Plumlee was getting abused out there. The other night, Alex Len had 3 fouls, with 8 points and 3 rebounds. Hornacek left him in and he finished with 17 points and 11 rebounds with 4 fouls. They give you 6 for a reason, let Alex Len use them.

So far Len is averaging close to 20min per game and that's just the right amount for him right now. Increasing his minutes has to happen gradually, you don't want to skyrocket his minutes to 30+ and risk yet another injury. Don't forget his body is still not as strong as it will be in a few years. After all he is 7'1, that alone demands extra caution.

[letsgosuns]

I believe the starting lineup is a major problem for the Suns. I would change it to:

Bledsoe
Dragic
Tucker
Markieff
Len

Then the second team would be:

Thomas
Green
Warren
Marcus
Plumlee

Then depending on the flow of the game, adjust lineups throughout if you need to. I have seen enough to know it is time for Len to start. No reason to hold him back. I think he is ready. Might as well just start him. I also think Plumlee would be fine coming off the bench. It would hopefully motivate him to play better. When you have a legitimate scoring center like Len, you need to start him. He has a chance to be a star center. Plumlee is a role player.

[Flying Colors]

i hope the Suns PGs can begin to find Len more often now, that 10 footer shot is money

[lilfishi22]

I'm really surprised how good Len's shot looks, from the midrange and from the line. I knew he had range but it just looked ugly all last year. Now it seems a little more comfortable playing within the offense and I think a large part of that is just confidence from getting more touches down low from pass offs and O-boards.

Right now, I like where he's headed in terms of his development. I don't think we should rush it but chucking him in there in our starting lineup yet.

[lilfishi22]

As strange as it could sound, I am not so sure that it was interesting for us to get too many easy free throws, as they slow down our game and give the opponent a time to adjust, think and rest. If we run and run, we don't want them to rest.
Bledsoe is the perfect PG to play alongside other PGs, as he is strong, long... but he definitely does not fit our basketball concept.

The problem with a sustained fast paced style of basketball is when the ball isn't going in the basket and we continue taking shots early in the shot clock. The law of averages generally means for every good run, we'll have small slump in between and with our style of basketball, that's a great opportunity for teams to quickly put points back on the board. Our style of basketball dictates we run whether our opponents shots are falling or not and it hurts us when they get to the free throw because it slows down the game. Applying that same principle on the other end, if our shots aren't falling, we should be getting to the FT line so we continue to score, we continue to run on offense but we don't let our opponents run up on us.

[Revived]

Len doesn't play much and doesn't start because Hornacek doesn't want to hurt Plumlee i guess. Yeah Plumlee is playing bad but making him worse is not a good idea for our thin C rotation.

I mean, if Len plays like 30-35 mins a game and Plumlee plays 10-15, then what happens if Len's got injured? You have only Plumlee who is dissatisfied and unmotivated.

Wtf dissatisfied and unmotivated?

Doesn't he get paid to play a basketball? Or is he doing this as a volunteer job?

Lmao this is the pros, if benching you because of your play is gonna hurt feelings, confidence and motivation then Plumlee needs to pack up and head for the China.

[Zelaznyrules]

Len doesn't play much and doesn't start because Hornacek doesn't want to hurt Plumlee i guess. Yeah Plumlee is playing bad but making him worse is not a good idea for our thin C rotation.

I mean, if Len plays like 30-35 mins a game and Plumlee plays 10-15, then what happens if Len's got injured? You have only Plumlee who is dissatisfied and unmotivated.

Wtf dissatisfied and unmotivated?

Doesn't he get paid to play a basketball? Or is he doing this as a volunteer job?

Lmao this is the pros, if benching you because of your play is gonna hurt feelings, confidence and motivation then Plumlee needs to pack up and head for the China.

I don't think I can name a player that isn't affected by the things you've just mentioned. A big paycheck changes nothing but your financial status. You still react to the same issues, petty or not.

[Cutter]

I believe the starting lineup is a major problem for the Suns. I would change it to:

Bledsoe
Dragic
Tucker
Markieff
Len

Then the second team would be:

Thomas
Green
Warren
Marcus
Plumlee

Then depending on the flow of the game, adjust lineups throughout if you need to. I have seen enough to know it is time for Len to start. No reason to hold him back. I think he is ready. Might as well just start him. I also think Plumlee would be fine coming off the bench. It would hopefully motivate him to play better. When you have a legitimate scoring center like Len, you need to start him. He has a chance to be a star center. Plumlee is a role player.

That's exactly how I would structure the team as well.