Is Hornacek the problem?

nevetsov · Post #181 » by **nevetsov** » Wed Mar 4, 2015 1:39 pm

How about Brian Shaw, at least we know he's not afraid to use the dog house!

SUN · Post #182 » by **SUN** » Thu Mar 5, 2015 9:07 pm

nevetsov wrote:How about Brian Shaw, at least we know he's not afraid to use the dog house!

Shaw was well regarded in Indy, don't know what went wrong in Denver. The Phil Jackson branch is kinda underwhelming.

Cutter · Post #183 » by **Cutter** » Fri Mar 6, 2015 12:55 am

nevetsov wrote:How about Brian Shaw, at least we know he's not afraid to use the dog house!

I'm not sure, but didnt Shaw have to interview for several head coaching jobs before he finally landed in Denver? I seem to recall comments that no team would really consider him for HC, and once he finally landed in Denver the bet was that he wouldn't last long.

bigfoot · Post #184 » by **bigfoot** » Sat Mar 7, 2015 9:07 pm

How about admitting Horny isn't the problem ...

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/ ... s-not-jeff

In Len We Trust · Post #185 » by **In Len We Trust** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 3:14 am

bigfoot wrote:How about admitting Horny isn't the problem ...

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/ ... s-not-jeff

Yes, let's all think that Hornacek doesn't sucks because of a dumb **** article that fails to even point out any of his many flaws.

Hornacek is trash and I hope we can move on from him as soon as possible.

Revived · Post #186 » by **Revived** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 3:44 am

JTrain wrote:I can't figure out Hornacek. By all appearances seems to be an intelligent guy. Played six seasons of really good basketball under a very disciplined and great offensive coach who he adores in Jerry Sloan. Yet his offensive "system" is incoherent crap. My theory remains that his personality is just incompatible with many of the guys he inherited.

This sums up why Hornacek is a terrible coach who can't instil any type of discipline within this team

nevetsov · Post #187 » by **nevetsov** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 1:58 pm

I still don't like this half court set where the Pg dribbles to one side and the wing runs behind him and takes the ball from him, and then he does the same switch with the other wing. Doesn't make the defense work and doesn't achieve anything except draining 12 seconds off the shot clock.

Every other team either initiates the offense by setting a quick high screen on the ball, or frees their wings up by having them move off the ball through a variety of cuts and screens trough the key. Yet to see any of this so far this season.

JMac1 · Post #188 » by **JMac1** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 2:37 pm

bigfoot wrote:How about admitting Horny isn't the problem ...

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/ ... s-not-jeff

Are you serious :banghead:

Hornacek is a problem because the brothas don't respect him. New flash to some of you; it takes a special kind of coach to understand the cultural differences in some African American players vs others. If you cannot relate and communicate to ALL of your players good and bad-most of the really good players have the bad attitudes, just like many rich people are spoiled-then you are going to be an ineffective coach, that is Jeff.

Hornacek can't relate, communicate and thus gets no respect.....that is his fault, not the player. Everyone doesn't play to the same beat of the drum. You can gain respect from anyone, you just need to know how to do it. Gone are the days where you respect the coach just because he is the coach. If you have those expectations, enjoy the dysfunction and losing....if you don't get me see Bill Belichick or Greg Popovich, although Greg has pretty easy going payers.

In Len We Trust · Post #189 » by **In Len We Trust** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 3:34 pm

JMac1 wrote:
bigfoot wrote:How about admitting Horny isn't the problem ...

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/ ... s-not-jeff

Are you serious

Hornacek is a problem because the brothas don't respect him. New flash to some of you; it takes a special kind of coach to understand the cultural differences in some African American players vs others. If you cannot relate and communicate to ALL of your players good and bad-most of the really good players have the bad attitudes, just like many rich people are spoiled-then you are going to be an ineffective coach, that is Jeff.

Hornacek can't relate, communicate and thus gets no respect.....that is his fault, not the player. Everyone doesn't play to the same beat of the drum. You can gain respect from anyone, you just need to know how to do it. Gone are the days where you respect the coach just because he is the coach. If you have those expectations, enjoy the dysfunction and losing....if you don't get me see Bill Belichick or Greg Popovich, although Greg has pretty easy going payers.

Bigfoot is honestly just a useless troll. Not once have I ever seen him put any substance behind anything he says or any kind of legitimate, logical argument. No surprise that he is now trying to just fall back on some pitiful article.

#FireHornacek

Frank Lee · Post #190 » by **Frank Lee** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 4:20 pm

JMac1 wrote:
bigfoot wrote:How about admitting Horny isn't the problem ...

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/ ... s-not-jeff

Are you serious

Hornacek is a problem because the brothas don't respect him. New flash to some of you; it takes a special kind of coach to understand the cultural differences in some African American players vs others. If you cannot relate and communicate to ALL of your players good and bad-most of the really good players have the bad attitudes, just like many rich people are spoiled-then you are going to be an ineffective coach, that is Jeff.

Hornacek can't relate, communicate and thus gets no respect.....that is his fault, not the player. Everyone doesn't play to the same beat of the drum. You can gain respect from anyone, you just need to know how to do it. Gone are the days where you respect the coach just because he is the coach. If you have those expectations, enjoy the dysfunction and losing....if you don't get me see Bill Belichick or Greg Popovich, although Greg has pretty easy going payers.

Nice one JMac.... but how about this twist.... it takes a special kind of coach to understand KNUCKLEHEADS. Remove the white/black BS. This is a job, a profession. Act in such a manner or get the f out. This team is loaded with guys who can't execute plays, follow instructions and assignments. Who lack the fundamental abilities and seem to have problems grasping simple concepts, like boxing out, or sustained continuous effort.... let alone personal conduct.

Some say the he has lost the team??? I think it might be the other way around. This is a pathetic bunch of numbskulls, who seem better suited to be hooping at the playground than in a professional arena. Respect is a funny thing, it flows both ways.

In Len We Trust · Post #191 » by **In Len We Trust** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 4:30 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
bigfoot wrote:How about admitting Horny isn't the problem ...

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/ ... s-not-jeff

Are you serious

Hornacek is a problem because the brothas don't respect him. New flash to some of you; it takes a special kind of coach to understand the cultural differences in some African American players vs others. If you cannot relate and communicate to ALL of your players good and bad-most of the really good players have the bad attitudes, just like many rich people are spoiled-then you are going to be an ineffective coach, that is Jeff.

Hornacek can't relate, communicate and thus gets no respect.....that is his fault, not the player. Everyone doesn't play to the same beat of the drum. You can gain respect from anyone, you just need to know how to do it. Gone are the days where you respect the coach just because he is the coach. If you have those expectations, enjoy the dysfunction and losing....if you don't get me see Bill Belichick or Greg Popovich, although Greg has pretty easy going payers.

Nice one JMac.... but how about this twist.... it takes a special kind of coach to understand KNUCKLEHEADS. Remove the white/black BS. This is a job, a profession. Act in such a manner or get the f out. This team is loaded with guys who can't execute plays, follow instructions and assignments. Who lack the fundamental abilities and seem to have problems grasping simple concepts, like boxing out, or sustained continuous effort.... let alone personal conduct.

Some say the he has lost the team??? I think it might be the other way around. This is a pathetic bunch of numbskulls, who seem better suited to be hooping at the playground than in a professional arena. Respect is a funny thing, it flows both ways.

I think that it isn't just one or the other. It isn't Hornacek sucks OR the team is bad/stupid/low iq. I think all of those things are true

Hornacek is a bad coach
Low IQ players
Log jam roster
Redundant players (Green, Thornton)

I am not worried about the roster. I expect a lot of change in the offseason. There is nothing that suggests we won't make big moves this Summer. I am, however, extremely worried that we hold on to Hornacek for way too long. If we don't fire him as soon as after next season then I think it will seriously cripple us going forward.

Puff · Post #192 » by **Puff** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 7:08 pm

I have no idea how anyone cannot think that Hornacek has been and is a problem.

Most coaches would be fired at this point.

Going into the season we had several very good pieces to build around and all of them with the exception of Len are either gone or have regressed under Hornacek's watch.

Let's take a look at those players -

Bledsoe - plays hard most every night and tries to initiate the offense but has too many turnovers - my question is what is the offense he is trying to run? It is at best helter skelter and he is labelled as a turnover machine. Is that really fair to him? I see him with no one to pass to while getting double teamed. I think a lot of his problems could be solved with a better designed offensive system. That is on the coach.

Dragic - I think the real truth will come out this off season. I think the real reason for him wanting to get out of town was the locker room. It really does seem to be a happy place. While all the blame cannot be bestowed on Hornacek, he has some skin in the game. By Dragic leaving we lost one of our best players. If he was not happy with his role that should have been addressed and fixed by Hornacek.

Thomas - While having his faults, he was a dynamic scorer that filled a role for this team. He will not be replaced easily going forward. We let Dragic convince us he needed to be gone. I wish he were still here.

Green - Last year he was a dynamic offensive force. If put into the right offensive system he is unguardable. If you rely on him to create for others you are asking for trouble. Our offense should have been designed to take advantage of his physical gifts which are really quite unbelievable. If we do not keep him and he gets in the right system I think he could be a legit 20 point scorer every night. Hornacek should have utilized in another role rather than the designated chucker.

Morris Brothers - have been spotty all year long but I unlike other posters I see them as important pieces going forward. I see far too much one on one play from both of them. That goes back to the basics. We have no offensive plan that I can see. That is on Hornacek. We need them attacking the basket and going to the line while not shooting mid range jumpers all night long.

Len - he has shown signs but still does not get enough opportunities. He needs more touches and it is up to Horancek to design plays to be run which utilize his skill set.

I would definitely like to see more of Warren and really do not understand why he doesn't get more minutes. I would love to see Archie succeed but unfortunately I have a feeling he not going to ever be a legit NBA player. I hope I am wrong.

Basically I do not think any of our players have improved their game under the guidance of Hornacek. If I am missing something, please enlighten me.

Doesn't he have to be at least a part of the problem?

JMac1 · Post #193 » by **JMac1** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 9:34 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
bigfoot wrote:How about admitting Horny isn't the problem ...

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/ ... s-not-jeff

Are you serious

Hornacek is a problem because the brothas don't respect him. New flash to some of you; it takes a special kind of coach to understand the cultural differences in some African American players vs others. If you cannot relate and communicate to ALL of your players good and bad-most of the really good players have the bad attitudes, just like many rich people are spoiled-then you are going to be an ineffective coach, that is Jeff.

Hornacek can't relate, communicate and thus gets no respect.....that is his fault, not the player. Everyone doesn't play to the same beat of the drum. You can gain respect from anyone, you just need to know how to do it. Gone are the days where you respect the coach just because he is the coach. If you have those expectations, enjoy the dysfunction and losing....if you don't get me see Bill Belichick or Greg Popovich, although Greg has pretty easy going payers.

Nice one JMac.... but how about this twist.... it takes a special kind of coach to understand KNUCKLEHEADS. Remove the white/black BS. This is a job, a profession. Act in such a manner or get the f out. This team is loaded with guys who can't execute plays, follow instructions and assignments. Who lack the fundamental abilities and seem to have problems grasping simple concepts, like boxing out, or sustained continuous effort.... let alone personal conduct.

Some say the he has lost the team??? I think it might be the other way around. This is a pathetic bunch of numbskulls, who seem better suited to be hooping at the playground than in a professional arena. Respect is a funny thing, it flows both ways.

and

Frank, you just supported my post 100 percent, thank you. SMH... It is hard for some people to understand. They think everyone is the same :lol:

Just yell at them and they will get it or else....WOW!!

Try teaching and coaching for as many years as I have Frank. Chandler Unified, Phoenix Union, and Apache Junction.....believe me when I say there are cultural differences between people based on race, nationality, and income.

Wow!

JMac1 · Post #194 » by **JMac1** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 9:37 pm

P.S. Until we get a coach who can get the players to buy in-and that comes from relating to them, getting respect from them and getting them under control-we are not going to have any semblance of a team.

Post #195 » by **lilfishi22** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 10:28 pm

Classic ILWT to agree with a post highlighting "cultural differences".

So JMac1, where was the cultural differences last year when chemistry was high and everyone brought into the system run by the same coach who had no issues taking the same bunch of knuckleheads to 48 wins? Did our players just realise Jeffrey John Hornacek was...not of a the same culture?

Cutter · Post #196 » by **Cutter** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 10:40 pm

Yeah, last year Hornacek was #2 in Coach of the Year voting, and took an underdog Suns team to 48 wins and barely missing the playoffs. Great chemistry, relating to players and getting them to buy in to the system. And now, after 60+ games this year, he is all of a sudden dog poop and needs to be fired?

In Len We Trust · Post #197 » by **In Len We Trust** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 11:15 pm

Cutter wrote:Yeah, last year Hornacek was #2 in Coach of the Year voting, and took an underdog Suns team to 48 wins and barely missing the playoffs. Great chemistry, relating to players and getting them to buy in to the system. And now, after 60+ games this year, he is all of a sudden dog poop and needs to be fired?

Nice attention to detail. You clearly watch games with an educated and focused basketball mind.

JMac1 · Post #198 » by **JMac1** » Sun Mar 8, 2015 11:59 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Classic ILWT to agree with a post highlighting "cultural differences".

So JMac1, where was the cultural differences last year when chemistry was high and everyone brought into the system run by the same coach who had no issues taking the same bunch of knuckleheads to 48 wins? Did our players just realise Jeffrey John Hornacek was...not of a the same culture?

Have you ever heard of when things are going good it is easy to coach, have a relationship, go to work, go to school, but when adversity sets in then you learn the true character of people? Please be more educated than that. Are you inferring he doesn't have a problem getting the players to listen to him.....when he has said it? C'mon. And you think that that has nothing to possibly do with the "thugs" not respecting the soft white Mormon coach....Persona is everything. Damn!

Hell.......Marcus damn near whooped his ass on the sideline and he did CRAP!! P U N K!! He got punked by his own player who has ZERO respect for him. How do you think anyone will respect that guy after that. All you guys do is talk about the players wishing hoping and praying they will just be nice and listen. :crazy:

Cutter wrote:Yeah, last year Hornacek was #2 in Coach of the Year voting, and took an underdog Suns team to 48 wins and barely missing the playoffs. Great chemistry, relating to players and getting them to buy in to the system. And now, after 60+ games this year, he is all of a sudden dog poop and needs to be fired?

Same goes for you..

Wake the hell up and stop being so juvenile. We are all the same, but raised differently, if you don't understand that you are either a fool or in denial.

I look at Hornacek and see a whimp. Period!

Post #199 » by **lilfishi22** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 12:04 am

JMac1 wrote:Have you ever heard of when things are going good it is easy to coach, have a relationship, go to work, go to school, but when adversity sets in then you learn the true character of people? Please be more educated than that. Are you inferring he doesn't have a problem getting the players to listen to him.....when he has said it? C'mon. And you think that that has nothing to possibly do with the "thugs" not respecting the soft white Mormon coach....Persona is everything. Damn!

Hell.......Marcus damn near whooped his ass on the sideline and he did CRAP!! P U N K!! He got punked by his own player who has ZERO respect for him. How do you think anyone will respect that guy after that. All you guys do is talk about the players wishing hoping and praying they will just be nice and listen.

Cutter wrote:Yeah, last year Hornacek was #2 in Coach of the Year voting, and took an underdog Suns team to 48 wins and barely missing the playoffs. Great chemistry, relating to players and getting them to buy in to the system. And now, after 60+ games this year, he is all of a sudden dog poop and needs to be fired?

Same goes for you..

Wake the hell up and stop being so juvenile. We are all the same, but raised differently, if you don't understand that you are either a fool or in denial.

I look at Hornacek and see a whimp. Period!

So your whole argument is Hornacek is the problem because he not the right "cultural" fit (ie wrong colour/religion for the job) but not the players who you refer to as thugs.

JMac1 · Post #200 » by **JMac1** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 12:44 am

From the OP

I just hate watching this team play. It is ugly basketball and I believe that starts at the coaches level. It seems that we keep making the same mistakes over and over while blaming the refs for our lack of effort, direction and skill. If the players on the court are not doing what the coach wants them to do, why do they continue to get minutes. If Popovich were our coach our bench would have finished virtually every game.

Is Hornacek the problem?

Yes because he is a weak coach. By this I mean, he is unable to get the players to listen to him and respect him. For example he stated after one game, that players did what they wanted to do during a game. Also, during another game, Marcus Morris violently yelled in the face of Hornacek and had to be physcially restrained. Now, this leads me to believe he has no control over the team.

Being that Marcus and Markieff are some real hood brothas and culturaly raised to respect people whom can whoop as more than be diplomatic-because in the streets diplomacy gets you robbed- I feel that they have very little respect for the mild manner white coach who struggles to find the line of communication that lies between diplomacy and putting his foot in their ass, thus the coach is the problem, because that is his job.

Listen,

many people-in tha hood-believe that you earn respect and it is not ordained upon you just because you are the coach or the teacher or just a plain person. Many young players such as Demarcus Cousins have a "who are you?" "why should I listen to you?' "I don't know you like that?" "You can't tell me what to do?" "who does he think he is?" "man, that white dude don't know me like that.I am not going to listen to him. I ain't no sell out." attitude; especially the ones raised without a strong male role model.

The thinking of many young athletes are created from a cultural/socio-economic background where there is less structure, accountability, and respect for themselves and others (see the use of the N word). Also, they are not taught the anger/behavior management skills to listen to certain people whom they deem as weak or overly authoritative, thus the coach who believes the "just yell at them" (Frank) or "hope he will just listen because he is supposed to" modual of coaching will be sufficient enough to get his or her point across eventually loses the players and the team when the going gets tough and they player doesn't want to hear about why it is tough....at least not from him!