Kerrsed wrote:We need to do something and do it soon. Our issue is located in the BIG department. They were taking it to the hoop whenever they wanted because we had no big in the paint to stop them or even make them think twice. We shot more 3 pointers than regular FG's tonight because we had no presence in the paint. Lots of turnovers for our guys tonight, the Bucks defense looked great, you wanna know why? Rewind the tape. They were constantly throwing double teams out on the ball handlers because they really didnt need guys guarding Len/Plumlee. They are not a threat at all.
Same went for when we had Toliver in. Toliver isnt a threat to score, unless he was a good 5 seconds open camping behind the 3 point line, otherwise, he just looks to swing the ball to the next guy. He is just passive. For as much as i have wanted Len to start, he still has a long way to go. The only decent big (PF or C) that we have is Keiff. We need to do something soon, or else its too late.
I see people saying, "But its ONLY 26 games in, that too early to change things". Same people that said for the past few seasons, "Its too late in the season to tank". There is no perfect time in the League to do anything. You just do it when you know it needs to be done, and IT NEEDS TO BE DONE!
Dragic or Bledsoe need to go. Thats where everything starts. You want a decent big, then its going to cost one of the two. Many people see Dragic in rose colored glasses like he is our savior that can do no wrong. They also seem to be the ones that will go off on Bledsoe for every little thing, yet totally ignore when Dragic does the same thing. I just dont get it or the issue some of you have with Bledsoe. I also dont understand a lot of the hate that IT receives. He was the lone reason why we made a comeback tonight. Just like other nights. Does he go into iso-mode? Sometimes. Does he usually end up scoring a bunch for us when he does? Yeah. So whats the difference if its him or someone else? As long as we are getting points, then good!
And then you have people whining about Ennis. GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK! "Why isnt Ennis playing?!?!?" "Why doesnt Ennis get minutes?!?!?" BOO-FREAKIN-HOO!!! Uh... maybe its because we already have 3 high level PG's on the roster that get paid really good money to produce the stats that they are getting. "TJ Warren needs to start!!!" "Where is TJ?!?" I can tell you where he is, sitting on the bench like he should be, watching guys play ball, so he can get a better understanding of the League!!!
Back to my original point. We need to address our weak-ass PF/C spots. Everyone is destroying us in the paint. Horny tried to address that tonight by starting Len, but he needs a lot more time to develop before he can handle that. If we dont address our need for a presence in the paint, we can expect this losing streak to continue, and many more to follow it.
/End of Rant.
I don't mind eventually trading one of them if it nets us a GOOD big, but I don't think it would right now. Teams that may need point guards don't have good bigs that they'd give up (ones people come up with here don't make sense because it would leave a big hole at center OR they don't need a pg and are playing well).
Dragic has very little trade value since he is not under contract. Bledsoe probably has more but not a ton due to his huge contract and all the good point guards in the league as well as some other guys that would be traded like Rondo. IT may have ok trade value.
Our best assets will be Dragic if we re-sign him and Bledsoe, and if we trade IT this year, and the team still doesn't work well by next year and our bigs haven't developed, and we don't get instant impact guys in the draft, we could look to see if there is a deal worth making.
They could possibly look to make a deal this year, but I doubt there is a worthy one out there.
We are not making the playoffs this year, so downgrading talent overall for the long run doesn't make sense. Teams don't generally trade bigs for guards unless they have a gaping holed and depth at the big. Monroe makes little sense, since we couldn't keep him and are not making the playoffs anyway.
We could have two picks in the top 10, draft Looney and Towns, or Stanley Johnson and Towns, or luck out and get a top 3 pick and get a stud plus one of those other guys, and have a REALLY solid future with a big rotation of those guys, Len and Kieff, plus Dragic, Bledsoe and Warren.
Making some sort of panic move now would likely just make us worse and give us even fewer assets than we have now and we'd still be out of the playoffs.
The best move might be to try and trade Thomas for a guy McD has scouted who his rotting on a bench somewhere, that flourishes in our system. I don't know who that could be, but he seems to be good at finding value. Trading for guys who can't protect the rim, shoot or play D (Monroe) or thinking we can trade for Horford (leaving them without a center when they already have a pg playing at near all star level in Teague) makes zero sense. Someone even asked Pelton in a chat if the Suns have anything Atlanta would consider and he say no, if they trade him they can get a lot more than what the Suns offer, but they are playing really well and have zero reason to make that sort of move now.
I'm not sure if you are one of the people who think we can get Horford or want Monroe, but I'm just speaking in general.
We should try to trade IT for someone like Illyasova if we can, but I don't know if they'd do that type of deal, but since they have Parker, they may think a scoring backup pg works (though Kidd might prefer a passing guy like Marshall in that roll since he was a passer).
Calvin Klein wrote:As long as we keep playing this brand of basketball, with this "no-system" system, trades won't mean ****.
Players are not the problem. At least not the main problem.
I agree with this. A free flowing system works well with a solid vet team, which we don't have. Our guys need some tough love. We should never have a guy shoot 3-18.
The players are certainly part of the problem! This roster is clearly unbalanced. You cant have your 3 best players all be combo guards, not have a decent big man on the entire roster, and expect to win a lot of games. I think Alex Len has the potential to be this teams future starting center, but pairing him with an undersized PF in Markieff is the wrong way to go, at least not until Len becomes stronger. If you want Markieff to be the starting 4, he needs to be next to a strong physical center, and if you want Len starting now, he needs to be paired with a strong physical PF.
Bottom line, it doesn't matter what system the Suns choose to run, it will never be successful, as long as they have so many offensive minded, low basketball IQ, iso players like Thomas, Green, and the Morris Brothers on the roster.
Scutt wrote:The players are the main problem. This roster is unbalanced. You cant have your 3 best players all be combo guards, not have a decent big man on the entire roster, and expect to win a lot of games. I think Alex Len has the potential to be this teams future starting center, but pairing him with an undersized PF in Markieff is the wrong way to go, at least not until Len becomes stronger. If you want Markieff to be the starting 4, he needs to be next to a strong physical center, and if you want Len starting now, he needs to be paired with a strong physical PF.
Bottom line, it doesn't matter what system the Suns choose to run, it will never be successful, as long as they have so many offensive minded, low basketball IQ, iso players like Thomas, Green, and the Morris Brothers on the roster.
You're right and it's too bad no quality bigs will sign with us and we don't have the trade assets to trade for one. Hopefully we can draft them. It would be nice to be able to trade Thomas for some kind of high intensity or defensive big but I can't imagine many teams doing such a deal. Then of course we'd lose value on a Dragic trade since he could leave that team after half a year playing for them.
bwgood77 wrote: it's too bad no quality bigs will sign with us... Hopefully we can draft them .
Yet, there are Suns fans that want to try and remain competitive at absolutely all costs( aka 9th seed) and wait for a star to choose us or hope we trade for one. Honestly, I have more faith in McD drafting a hidden gem, than him fleecing a team for a legitimate frontcourt player, but we are certainly not helping ourselves by getting the 14th pick every year. I know a lot of you guys call the draft a crap shoot, but there is no denying, the odds of drafting a game changer, increase when you have a higher pick.
Keeping this same core, while the Suns hover as the 9th seed for the next couple of years, waiting for a good big man to come along, really does not sound all that appealing to me. I would much rather watch Len, Warren, Ennis, Goodwin, and a stud Power forward that we draft, get to play over Plumlee, Thomas, Tucker, Green, and the Morris bros.
Maybe the Suns will get lucky this year and land the Lakers pick, allowing them to package and trade up in the draft. Even if they cant package it with their own, I would rather take my chances with the 6th pick over the 14th.
Kerrsed wrote:We need to do something and do it soon. Our issue is located in the BIG department. They were taking it to the hoop whenever they wanted because we had no big in the paint to stop them or even make them think twice. We shot more 3 pointers than regular FG's tonight because we had no presence in the paint. Lots of turnovers for our guys tonight, the Bucks defense looked great, you wanna know why? Rewind the tape. They were constantly throwing double teams out on the ball handlers because they really didnt need guys guarding Len/Plumlee. They are not a threat at all.
Same went for when we had Toliver in. Toliver isnt a threat to score, unless he was a good 5 seconds open camping behind the 3 point line, otherwise, he just looks to swing the ball to the next guy. He is just passive. For as much as i have wanted Len to start, he still has a long way to go. The only decent big (PF or C) that we have is Keiff. We need to do something soon, or else its too late.
I see people saying, "But its ONLY 26 games in, that too early to change things". Same people that said for the past few seasons, "Its too late in the season to tank". There is no perfect time in the League to do anything. You just do it when you know it needs to be done, and IT NEEDS TO BE DONE!
Dragic or Bledsoe need to go. Thats where everything starts. You want a decent big, then its going to cost one of the two. Many people see Dragic in rose colored glasses like he is our savior that can do no wrong. They also seem to be the ones that will go off on Bledsoe for every little thing, yet totally ignore when Dragic does the same thing. I just dont get it or the issue some of you have with Bledsoe. I also dont understand a lot of the hate that IT receives. He was the lone reason why we made a comeback tonight. Just like other nights. Does he go into iso-mode? Sometimes. Does he usually end up scoring a bunch for us when he does? Yeah. So whats the difference if its him or someone else? As long as we are getting points, then good!
And then you have people whining about Ennis. GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK! "Why isnt Ennis playing?!?!?" "Why doesnt Ennis get minutes?!?!?" BOO-FREAKIN-HOO!!! Uh... maybe its because we already have 3 high level PG's on the roster that get paid really good money to produce the stats that they are getting. "TJ Warren needs to start!!!" "Where is TJ?!?" I can tell you where he is, sitting on the bench like he should be, watching guys play ball, so he can get a better understanding of the League!!!
Back to my original point. We need to address our weak-ass PF/C spots. Everyone is destroying us in the paint. Horny tried to address that tonight by starting Len, but he needs a lot more time to develop before he can handle that. If we dont address our need for a presence in the paint, we can expect this losing streak to continue, and many more to follow it.
/End of Rant.
I don't mind eventually trading one of them if it nets us a GOOD big, but I don't think it would right now. Teams that may need point guards don't have good bigs that they'd give up (ones people come up with here don't make sense because it would leave a big hole at center OR they don't need a pg and are playing well).
Dragic has very little trade value since he is not under contract. Bledsoe probably has more but not a ton due to his huge contract and all the good point guards in the league as well as some other guys that would be traded like Rondo. IT may have ok trade value.
Our best assets will be Dragic if we re-sign him and Bledsoe, and if we trade IT this year, and the team still doesn't work well by next year and our bigs haven't developed, and we don't get instant impact guys in the draft, we could look to see if there is a deal worth making.
They could possibly look to make a deal this year, but I doubt there is a worthy one out there.
We are not making the playoffs this year, so downgrading talent overall for the long run doesn't make sense. Teams don't generally trade bigs for guards unless they have a gaping holed and depth at the big. Monroe makes little sense, since we couldn't keep him and are not making the playoffs anyway.
We could have two picks in the top 10, draft Looney and Towns, or Stanley Johnson and Towns, or luck out and get a top 3 pick and get a stud plus one of those other guys, and have a REALLY solid future with a big rotation of those guys, Len and Kieff, plus Dragic, Bledsoe and Warren.
Making some sort of panic move now would likely just make us worse and give us even fewer assets than we have now and we'd still be out of the playoffs.
The best move might be to try and trade Thomas for a guy McD has scouted who his rotting on a bench somewhere, that flourishes in our system. I don't know who that could be, but he seems to be good at finding value. Trading for guys who can't protect the rim, shoot or play D (Monroe) or thinking we can trade for Horford (leaving them without a center when they already have a pg playing at near all star level in Teague) makes zero sense. Someone even asked Pelton in a chat if the Suns have anything Atlanta would consider and he say no, if they trade him they can get a lot more than what the Suns offer, but they are playing really well and have zero reason to make that sort of move now.
I'm not sure if you are one of the people who think we can get Horford or want Monroe, but I'm just speaking in general.
We should try to trade IT for someone like Illyasova if we can, but I don't know if they'd do that type of deal, but since they have Parker, they may think a scoring backup pg works (though Kidd might prefer a passing guy like Marshall in that roll since he was a passer).
...or somehow get Frye back by sending IT out
-The lethal Dragic-Frye pick n roll duo is reunited...Goran soars again. -Goran's smile returns...a very "Sun"ny smile -The frontline rotations (while still not great) of last year are back ...and Len is much improved now -Frye brings some stability...that reliable "Frye fulcrum" back to the offensive schemes -Some (much needed) veteran leadership is infused via Channing presence -Ennis gets needed burn -other good stuff
...Yeah, 8 million a year for Frye is over paying a bit, but it's not terrible, especially if the Dragic-Frye PnR returns and Frye opens up the middle even a little. And with the new TV numbers? 8M per year is not nearly what it was just a year ago.
I would make it happen, and I believe the FO could make it happen (might take a 3rd team).
Calvin Klein wrote:As long as we keep playing this brand of basketball, with this "no-system" system, trades won't mean ****.
Players are not the problem. At least not the main problem.
I agree with this. A free flowing system works well with a solid vet team, which we don't have. Our guys need some tough love. We should never have a guy shoot 3-18.
To me I'm ready to watch the whole season with Ennis, Goodwin, Warren and Len getting major burn. Win or lose.. Don't care. Atleast I'll be in a less stressful mood and excited to see them unfold their talents.
Finishing 9th or 14th out west has no meaning in the current NBA, since a lot of those outside teams area young and 6-7 of the top 8 are interchangeable.
Calvin Klein wrote:As long as we keep playing this brand of basketball, with this "no-system" system, trades won't mean ****.
Players are not the problem. At least not the main problem.
I agree with this. A free flowing system works well with a solid vet team, which we don't have. Our guys need some tough love. We should never have a guy shoot 3-18.
We need stronger plays!
Eyeroll
So you think the system is fine? So you think we should let guys shoot 3-18? Elaborate please.
-The lethal Dragic-Frye pick n roll duo is reunited...Goran soars again. -Goran's smile returns...a very "Sun"ny smile -The frontline rotations (while still not great) of last year are back ...and Len is much improved now -Frye brings some stability...that reliable "Frye fulcrum" back to the offensive schemes -Some (much needed) veteran leadership is infused via Channing presence -Ennis gets needed burn -other good stuff
...Yeah, 8 million a year for Frye is over paying a bit, but it's not terrible, especially if the Dragic-Frye PnR returns and Frye opens up the middle even a little. And with the new TV numbers? 8M per year is not nearly what it was just a year ago.
I would make it happen, and I believe the FO could make it happen (might take a 3rd team).
Will this "reset" happen?
No...way!
While I would agree that it would be nice for Goran to regain his mojo, I don't see why he couldn't work with Markieff to gain this. If we were to trade for Frye (as if the Magic already regret getting a stretch four), what happens if Goran chooses to sign somewhere else because of Bledsoe? Then aren't we stuck with Frye at $8 million a year for three more years? I just think that is too much of a gamble.
1UPZ wrote:To me I'm ready to watch the whole season with Ennis, Goodwin, Warren and Len getting major burn. Win or lose.. Don't care. Atleast I'll be in a less stressful mood and excited to see them unfold their talents.
Finishing 9th or 14th out west has no meaning in the current NBA, since a lot of those outside teams area young and 6-7 of the top 8 are interchangeable.
Even if we traded IT, Ennis won't get major burn, probably less than Ish got last year. More than likely Jeff would just shorten the rotation, and Bledsoe and Goran would take all the point guard duties. That would open up some shooting guard minutes, but Goodwin just isn't ready to play against second or first string opponents. If we could mold Goodwin into a defensive stopper, he could get minutes just from that. But his defense has been just alright, not smothering like I hoped. It was interesting to see Warren get some sg minutes the other night.
Len will get as many minutes as he allows himself to get. He fouled out in his first start. So he major burn could already be up to him.
Warren I still would like to get more minutes, and I've been saying so for a month. I would like to see him and McMo be super aggressive on defense, and on the boards, but that would take a lot of work on their part, and changing their game a bit, but I think the outcome would be incredible.
Kief's poblems are his cold spells and cold games.... not clutch, but that could be mostly because he is surrounded by chuckers. Started hot last night, then fell into a hole somewhere.
Fo-Real wrote:Kief's poblems are his cold spells and cold games.... not clutch, but that could be mostly because he is surrounded by chuckers. Started hot last night, then fell into a hole somewhere.
Markieff is having his best season, but I still feel he needs to come off the bench for Suns success... he dominates other team's benches... Suns can then plug in a catch and shoot guy at the PF.
Ideally next to Dragic, Bledsoe you want a 3D SF (Tucker is kind of that role) a stretch 4 (Ryan Anderson , Rasheed Wallace type) a BEAST rebounding and defensive Center (Drummond, Howard, prime Mutombo lol)
Then have a player like Markieff off the bench who can ISO against inferior competition whilst the starters are resting.
If Deandre Jordan wasnt asking for a MAX contract (80+ million), he'd be good to target next off-season, but Suns dont even have the room anymore...
Teams dont really look at Isaiah as a star piece, guy has never won anywhere he has gone, I think hes a good player hes just been on the wrong teams his whole career, he would fit nice on the bulls or grizz coming off the bench. I have said this before.
Bottom line, getting rotation front court players wouldnt be that bad for IT. Just dont expect use to land a star big man. And to be honest, Isaiah isnt that big of an assett where we need to keep him just to package him with picks for a superstar, because teams just dont look at IT like that. So trading him for some solid bigs who come off the bench wouldnt be that bad.......
Anderson shoots way to much, love him and he would def space our floor. But way to many shots especially with our guards. Yea keef def comes off the bench unless we got a versatile center that could also shoot 3s.... But Markieff has been our best player this season, and last year our bench was dominate and kept us in games vs top teams.
Goran loves Phx to much, only way he leaves is if we keep up this insane 3 pg lineup no guard is or would be happy if they had to play alongside 2 other great guards....... When IT is out Goran has a huge smile on his face, he came back to phx, and he stated that he hates the lakers. Hes going to be a sun and the only way he might leave is if we keep IT on the team, so while every1 states keep IT is security incase Goran leaves, its actually pushing him away tbh.
