ImageImageImage

Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,343
And1: 22,166
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#1 » by Revived » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:35 am

A week ago, Phoenix Suns point guard Isaiah Thomas said he thinks "everybody's getting comfortable with everybody," and the rotation of point guards is "hitting the stride."

Former Suns player and current NBA analyst Charles Barkley begs to differ.

Barkley told Arizona Sports 98.7's Bickley and Marotta Tuesday he thinks the Suns are "pinning themselves in a corner" with the utilization of three guards.

"I think they have made a mistake," he said. "I don't think you can have your two guards with $70 million deals and think your team is going to be competitive."

He's referring to Goran Dragic and Eric Bledsoe -- "two terrific guards," -- and said it's clear the Suns have been struggling all year trying to figure out where to play their third in Isaiah Thomas.

The problem according to Barkley is that all three guards are offensively-minded.

"And they all want the ball," he said
.

The three guards are all Phoenix's leading scorers and average a combined 57.1 points per game, which is more than half of the Suns' 107.4 total points per game average (third overall in the league). The Suns also have a 23-15 record when all three guards are healthy and play.

Yet for all that offensive production, with a three-guard rotation the team will always be at a defensive disadvantage, Barkley said. The Suns allow 105.3 points per game (28th in the league).

Barkley said they need bigger guys down low and won't get to the next level by playing "small ball," especially in the Western conference.

"You're not going to beat Memphis, you're not going to beat Portland
, you're not going to beat Dallas…I don't like small ball," he said. "That's one of my pet peeves."

And, he added, you can't pay a good big if you're paying three point guards.

"You've got to pay big guys at some point," he said."You've got to get some good quality big guys."

Man other than the part of him not counting Len as a quality big man, I couldn't agree more with every single word he said.
User avatar
Sunsss
Analyst
Posts: 3,342
And1: 1,074
Joined: Apr 04, 2010
     

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#2 » by Sunsss » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:41 am

Ok? Is this a thread worthy?
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,343
And1: 22,166
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#3 » by Revived » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:44 am

Sunsss wrote:Ok? Is this a thread worthy?

Why wouldn't it be?

Please pm me "thread worthy" requirements.
User avatar
LukasBMW
Suns Forum SlamDRUNK Contributor
Posts: 4,827
And1: 4,291
Joined: Jun 21, 2007
Location: Phoenix AZ & San Diego CA
 

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#4 » by LukasBMW » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:45 am

He's 100% right.
Image
Sunsdeuce
Head Coach
Posts: 6,127
And1: 2,694
Joined: Jan 22, 2012
       

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#5 » by Sunsdeuce » Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:50 am

Barkley speaks the truth!!! I love barkley. There is no way around it, small ball is garbage. Just like I've (and others here) been saying all year. It's time for the Suns to end this 3 PG nonsense.

"You're not going to beat Memphis, you're not going to beat Portland, you're not going to beat Dallas…I don't like small ball," he said. "That's one of my pet peeves."

And, he added, you can't pay a good big if you're paying three point guards.

"You've got to pay big guys at some point," he said."You've got to get some good quality big guys."

Image
I am such a lucky NBA fan. My favorite team went from the most greedy and racist owner to the most ego driven dumbass owner in all of sports.

Only a fan of Arizona teams!
Cardinals
Dbacks
Suns
Grots
Sophomore
Posts: 237
And1: 154
Joined: Apr 27, 2014
 

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#6 » by Grots » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:03 am

I agree with him. Trade Dragic to Houston for D-MO or Jones. Get rid of IT and move Ennis to backup PG.

We either commit to this expensive three PG system, which will just give us mediocrity in this conference (remember, the only reason we even have a tiny chance to make the playoffs this season is because OKC and even San Antonio has had horrible injuries), that formed by accident, or we do a real rebuild. Finish building from the draft around Bledsoe and Len and trade when it's smart. Don't scramble to keep this perpetual 9th/10th seed team around.
Cutter
Head Coach
Posts: 6,776
And1: 2,012
Joined: Nov 25, 2010
   

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#7 » by Cutter » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:11 am

I have posted before that I believe the 3 pg system is a gimmick and is not a sustainable style of play if we want to go deep into the playoffs. It might be ok for short stints of time in certain games, but to have it as a fundamental feature of your offense is not a good foundation for success.

I particularly dislike the end of game small ball-3 pg system. Having 3 pg on the floor along with Tucker at the 4 and Makieff or Marcus at the 5 is an absolute joke and not serious basketball. I know Hornaceks stats say this is a productive line up but Really?

However, I don't blame Hornacek. He is trying to create the best system he can based on the talent he has been given. He has to balance egos, minutes, playing time etc. i'm sure he would like a different mix of talent that would allow him to play a different system.
Sunsdeuce
Head Coach
Posts: 6,127
And1: 2,694
Joined: Jan 22, 2012
       

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#8 » by Sunsdeuce » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:16 am

Cutter wrote:I have posted before that I believe the 3 pg system is a gimmick and is not a sustainable style of play if we want to go deep into the playoffs. It might be ok for short stints of time in certain games, but to have it as a fundamental feature of your offense is not a good foundation for success.

I particularly dislike the end of game small ball-3 pg system. Having 3 pg on the floor along with Tucker at the 4 and Makieff or Marcus at the 5 is an absolute joke and not serious basketball. I know Hornaceks stats say this is a productive line up but Really?

However, I don't blame Hornacek. He is trying to create the best system he can based on the talent he has been given. He has to balance egos, minutes, playing time etc. i'm sure he would like a different mix of talent that would allow him to play a different system.

Another great post. Just wish others would see this truth.
I am such a lucky NBA fan. My favorite team went from the most greedy and racist owner to the most ego driven dumbass owner in all of sports.

Only a fan of Arizona teams!
Cardinals
Dbacks
Suns
ImNotMcDiSwear
General Manager
Posts: 8,259
And1: 6,370
Joined: Dec 14, 2013
 

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#9 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:18 am

I LIKE IT.

Trade the Dragon.
User avatar
thamadkant
Suns Forum Picker of Cherries
Posts: 16,833
And1: 8,532
Joined: Jan 06, 2007
 

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#10 » by thamadkant » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:46 am

It was always a big elephant in the room, the moment Bledsoe got 70 million and Thomas got 28 million... and Dragic due for a contract...

If all of them were combined at 25 million a year, I think that would be OK... but 45 million?, when the team has holes in other position? Even if the cap goes up... you are still paying that much for a position... and yes Dragic plays SG, but he cannot guard the big SGs in the league, especially the playoff teams out west...

But the Suns dont have that urgency because the team is above 0.500.... I believe McD has a plan but it takes 2 to tango, the other teams obviously dont want to play ball with McD, (regarding Dragic, Thomas's value)
Jdiddy701
RealGM
Posts: 10,145
And1: 6,555
Joined: Jun 05, 2006

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#11 » by Jdiddy701 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:42 am

Again, people fail to point out the signing of IT was the Suns reacting of the possibility of Bledsoe being shipped. The signing was great and the price was even better. No matter what the Suns do, Barkley will never say anything positive about us. I understand you guys HATE Isaiah Thomas on this team, but it seems like the Suns play their best ball with all three together. I think the three-guard lineup is fun to watch and can be deadly with the right big men around them. Can it win a championship? I don't know. This lineup right now can't and Suns know that. I'm sure they will address it soon.

I say there's 90% chance of Thomas or Dragic getting traded before the deadline. Suns have A TON of value with those players. I love every move they've done this offseason and recently. People just criticize everything they do, including this board. Only thing I would say was iffy was signing Anthony Tolliver, but I understand why they did it. Suns are on the right path.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 97,653
And1: 60,684
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#12 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:42 am

Honestly, I don't think ANY one here likes the 3 pg system. Maybe a couple of people want to keep all 3 but not the extreme vast majority. So I'm not sure what a thread for this is worthy. Barkley said the same thing we have all been saying.

We all want a guy like Bosh, Cousins, Horford, etc, but these guys ARE NOT going to be traded.

We all know Thomas wasn't our first target.

Some wouldn't mind Love, and some seem to hate him, but he likely isn't available either, though perhaps he should be. He would probably leave too anyway so that's probably not worth it.

We might be able to trade IT for someone like McRoberts or something, but we are extremely unlikely to get a premier big man. If the twins get their act together and with Len and Wright, we have a pretty decent big rotation.

But yes, we need to get rid of IT, imo even if it is for squat.
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said:
"First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
Cutter
Head Coach
Posts: 6,776
And1: 2,012
Joined: Nov 25, 2010
   

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#13 » by Cutter » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:51 am

One area that might possible work would be to play the 3 pg line up with a defensive rim protector beast at C, and an aggressive defensive oriented PF. Maybe. Possibly. It might work.....

Something like:
Dragic
Bledsoe
IT
Len
Ibaka

Maybe run this line up for a few minutes per half to keep the opppsing defense off balance. Again, I prefer not to have a 3 pg system, but if we are stuck with it, then I want to see more defense at the 4 &5.
Cutter
Head Coach
Posts: 6,776
And1: 2,012
Joined: Nov 25, 2010
   

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#14 » by Cutter » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:56 am

What is really sad, is that somewhere in the back rooms of an NBA team there is a stats guy cooking up a 5 pg line up. :lol:

"Hey Goran, you're 6' 4" so we need you to play center."
"Eric, your now the teams PF", "make sure you don't let Zach Randolph back you down into the paint for an easy bucket".

Both Goran and Eric are :o ucked
3rdside
Sophomore
Posts: 127
And1: 40
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
   

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#15 » by 3rdside » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:07 am

Jdiddy701 wrote:Again, people fail to point out the signing of IT was the Suns reacting of the possibility of Bledsoe being shipped. The signing was great and the price was even better. No matter what the Suns do, Barkley will never say anything positive about us. I understand you guys HATE Isaiah Thomas on this team, but it seems like the Suns play their best ball with all three together. I think the three-guard lineup is fun to watch and can be deadly with the right big men around them. Can it win a championship? I don't know. This lineup right now can't and Suns know that. I'm sure they will address it soon.

I say there's 90% chance of Thomas or Dragic getting traded before the deadline. Suns have A TON of value with those players. I love every move they've done this offseason and recently. People just criticize everything they do, including this board. Only thing I would say was iffy was signing Anthony Tolliver, but I understand why they did it. Suns are on the right path.


Three guards with Tucker and Morris cannot win the title. If it was Marion and Stoudemire then maybe but it's not.

They deserve criticism - we've got a pissed off roster that can't win close ones (okay, some bad luck there) that just got blown at out home, and just isn't good enough. I agree we've got some assets but until it turns into a good trade then we've got what we've got; a pissed off micro ball team that is border line playoff material at best.
Jdiddy701
RealGM
Posts: 10,145
And1: 6,555
Joined: Jun 05, 2006

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#16 » by Jdiddy701 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:12 am

3rdside wrote:
Jdiddy701 wrote:Again, people fail to point out the signing of IT was the Suns reacting of the possibility of Bledsoe being shipped. The signing was great and the price was even better. No matter what the Suns do, Barkley will never say anything positive about us. I understand you guys HATE Isaiah Thomas on this team, but it seems like the Suns play their best ball with all three together. I think the three-guard lineup is fun to watch and can be deadly with the right big men around them. Can it win a championship? I don't know. This lineup right now can't and Suns know that. I'm sure they will address it soon.

I say there's 90% chance of Thomas or Dragic getting traded before the deadline. Suns have A TON of value with those players. I love every move they've done this offseason and recently. People just criticize everything they do, including this board. Only thing I would say was iffy was signing Anthony Tolliver, but I understand why they did it. Suns are on the right path.


Three guards with Tucker and Morris cannot win the title. If it was Marion and Stoudemire then maybe but it's not.

They deserve criticism - we've got a pissed off roster that can't win close ones (okay, some bad luck there) that just got blown at out home, and just isn't good enough. I agree we've got some assets but until it turns into a good trade then we've got what we've got; a pissed off micro ball team that is border line playoff material at best.
]

Suns are in 8th seed in a very tough conference. Dallas just got blown out by Memphis. Games like that happen. We are way younger than Dallas. Our board overreacts a lot. Suns are one trade away.. it'll come.
BurningHeart
General Manager
Posts: 9,705
And1: 1,605
Joined: Jun 02, 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#17 » by BurningHeart » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:18 am

The three guard system is fine. Plenty of teams have a starting caliber guard on their bench.

That's not the issue.

Besides, Charles Barkley doesn't work for this team so I couldn't give a **** less what he thinks about this team.
User avatar
MrMiyagi
Suns Forum Eternal Optimist
Posts: 8,041
And1: 7,571
Joined: Jan 10, 2010
   

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#18 » by MrMiyagi » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:25 am

No one else sees the irony of a 6'6 power forward saying small-ball will never work?
SHAZAM!

Suns traded Mikal Bridges, Cam Johnson, Jae Crowder and 4 1st round picks and a swap so some Vegas Bookies would like us.
DirtyDez
Suns Forum College Scout
Posts: 17,096
And1: 6,843
Joined: Jun 25, 2009
Location: the Arizona desert

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#19 » by DirtyDez » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:53 am

MrMiyagi wrote:No one else sees the irony of a 6'6 power forward saying small-ball will never work?


Height =/= playing small

Barkley dominated the paint like a center. Arguably the greatest rebounder ever.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
3rdside
Sophomore
Posts: 127
And1: 40
Joined: Jan 21, 2015
   

Re: Charles Barkley doesn't like the Suns 3 guard/tiny ball system 

Post#20 » by 3rdside » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:27 am

Jdiddy701 wrote:
3rdside wrote:
Jdiddy701 wrote:Again, people fail to point out the signing of IT was the Suns reacting of the possibility of Bledsoe being shipped. The signing was great and the price was even better. No matter what the Suns do, Barkley will never say anything positive about us. I understand you guys HATE Isaiah Thomas on this team, but it seems like the Suns play their best ball with all three together. I think the three-guard lineup is fun to watch and can be deadly with the right big men around them. Can it win a championship? I don't know. This lineup right now can't and Suns know that. I'm sure they will address it soon.

I say there's 90% chance of Thomas or Dragic getting traded before the deadline. Suns have A TON of value with those players. I love every move they've done this offseason and recently. People just criticize everything they do, including this board. Only thing I would say was iffy was signing Anthony Tolliver, but I understand why they did it. Suns are on the right path.


Three guards with Tucker and Morris cannot win the title. If it was Marion and Stoudemire then maybe but it's not.

They deserve criticism - we've got a pissed off roster that can't win close ones (okay, some bad luck there) that just got blown at out home, and just isn't good enough. I agree we've got some assets but until it turns into a good trade then we've got what we've got; a pissed off micro ball team that is border line playoff material at best.
]

Suns are in 8th seed in a very tough conference. Dallas just got blown out by Memphis. Games like that happen. We are way younger than Dallas. Our board overreacts a lot. Suns are one trade away.. it'll come.


Part of me shares your optimism but sometimes (and this is probably the first time in my life of being a fan) you take a view from the glass half empty side of things. To be one year on with a worse record than last year and a pissed off squad that plays a lot of me-ball, while running the risk that our best player from last year - Dragic - leaves cause he's had enough of being dicked around in a contract year doesn't easily look like progress. I'm waiting for the trade of course but it's not pretty in the mean time.

Return to Phoenix Suns