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[Mulhollanddrive]

No team has lost a game 7 final at home. We were 1 shot away.

Not that we could beat GSW now.

[bwgood77]

I'll take the Warriors... 94' was the best chance the Suns had to win a championship and they choked. They can blame the UnbeataBulls in 93' and injuries in 95' but had no excuse to blow it in between. Marjerle was awful that series too.

I think 95 team was better and we had the Rockets on the ropes down 3-1 with two more games left at home. Then OT in game 5 I think, and then Mario Elie with a dagger in game 7 at home.

I know we won the first two on the road against Houston in 94, but I thought they were better and we kind of got lucky, and then they just won the next three and had the series in hand.

95 I felt we were better than Houston just like in 07 I thought we were better than SA. Those are the only two years I felt we were the best team in the league. 93 was close too though, and after reading GMAT's post, maybe the 93 team was the best.

[GMATCallahan]

Thus even if giving the Warriors all the respect in the world, one could not assume that they would have been more than a 65-win team circa '92-'93, and that year's Phoenix team easily could have been at least a 65-win team had K.J. not suffered the undiagnosed sports hernia during the preseason and/or if the end of the regular season had not become a bit screwy. Indeed, in the last 42 regular season games where Charles Barkley and Kevin Johnson played together in '92-'93, the Suns went 35-7 (.833), a 68-win pace over 82 games.

I would also note that combining the regular season and the NBA Finals, the 1993 Suns went 3-1 in Chicago, home of Michael Jordan and the two-time defending champion Chicago Bulls, with the only loss coming when Westphal (a rookie head coach in the NBA) made some dubious strategic decisions and Jordan scored 55 points in Game Four of the NBA Finals. Even then, the Suns only lost by five points and trailed by two with under twenty seconds to play.

A few more notes on this matter:

In the last 32 regular season games that Barkley and Johnson played together in '92-'93, from January 22 forward, the Suns went 28-4 (.875, a 72-win pace per 82 games).

In the final 25 regular season games that they played together, the Suns went 22-3 (.880).

In the last 19 regular season games that they played together, the Suns went 17-2 (.895).

In the final 9 regular season games that they played together, the Suns went 9-0 (1.000).

Included in that last stretch was a home win against the Knicks, who would win 60 games, and the Suns' regular season win at Chicago. See the last minute of this video here:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWqC3AlSDg8[/youtube]

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1992&b=19930330&tm=CHI

And one of those four losses came at Seattle on February 13 when K.J. suffered a kick to the calf during the first quarter. He left the game, returned in the second quarter, and soon exited for good. (He would miss the next seven games). In the first half, the Suns scored 56 points. In the second half, Phoenix scored just 38 and ended up losing by one, 95-94.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1992&b=19930213&tm=SEA

[GMATCallahan]

No team has lost a game 7 final at home. We were 1 shot away.

Not that we could beat GSW now.

Actually, it has happened: the Celtics defeated the Lakers in Los Angeles in Game Seven of the 1969 NBA Finals (and that Lakers team featured Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor), the Celtics defeated the Bucks in Milwaukee in Game Seven of the 1974 NBA Finals (and that Bucks team featured Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Oscar Robertson), and the Bullets defeated the Sonics in Seattle in Game Seven of the 1978 NBA Finals.

But I believe that the 1993 Suns could beat today's Warriors in a playoff series—if one considers some of the data and historical details that I have posted, believing so really is not a stretch at all.

The series would be a great one.

Remember, one could argue that outside of Golden State, only six or seven teams in the NBA are really any good. The Warriors are thus able to beat up on over twenty mediocre-to-poor clubs. The Warriors constitute an incredible team, but as I said, the context matters. Winning 70-something games will not necessarily mean that they are better than the 1987 Lakers ... or even the 1993 Suns.

[GMATCallahan]

Only heard of Westphal and Walter Davis, but I never really watched any games that weren't live so I never saw those guys play. My only memory of KJ was when he came out of retirement to play for the Suns because Kidd was hurt. I thought that was awesome. I also remember him being inducted into the Suns Ring of Honor I believe and we were playing the Kings and we were up by I think 20 at halftime and they came back to beat us. I was pissed. I think I was at a Filipino party with my Mom and I was listening to the game on a radio in their garage. I remember KJ saying something during his speech at halftime along the lines of let's come back out here and whoop these guys. I knew as soon as he said that something bad was going to happen.

... that was March 7, 2001. The Suns led by as many as 28 points in the first half (24 at halftime) and then saw themselves out-scored by Sacramento 60-25 in the second half.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=2000&b=20010307&tm=PHO

The Suns' crowd was cheering K.J. wildly at the end of the Ring of Honor ceremony for quite awhile, and he was basically being self-effacing, saying something like, "Hey, we're on a roll, let's keep it going by letting the Suns get back out there."

But what happened in that second half was not a fluke. The Suns would face the Kings in the First Round of the playoffs that year and blow leads of 17 and 19 points in consecutive home games to lose the series three games to one.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Maybe in the NBA era.

[GMATCallahan]

Maybe in the NBA era.

... post- NBA-ABA merger, you mean? That happened in 1976, so you would still have Game Seven of the 1978 Finals. But since then, your are correct. There were Game Sevens in the NBA Finals in 1984, 1988, 1994, 2005, 2010, and 2013, and the home team won each time. That sample size is not that large, but the Suns were definitely the fresher team compared to the Bulls by the later stages of the 1993 Finals.

[GMATCallahan]

Phil Jackson mentioned Abdrul-Rauf as comparable player to Curry... and based on game style... he isnt far off.

Curry is Rauf on steroids... mainly because Curry IS NOT scared to jack those shots, he WANTS to jack those shots because he is 100% confident.

Players of the past WOULD never shoot 30 foot shots, because even if they nail it, the coach will yank them to the side. Heck, Popovic would do that today... and other coaches too.

Curry embraces, because he has practiced that shot and KNOWS he can make them.


Well, imagine a player like Abdul Rauf, being told that "its OK" for him to take a couple of 30 footers in a game.. And the coach setting him up for open looks at the 3pt line and ENCOURAGED to take 15 of them if he has enough open space.
He'd be a star today too... since he was a nice player back then.

... pretty good point of comparison by you (and Phil Jackson).

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gW95__TeWk[/youtube]

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1995&b=19951115&tm=PHO

Abdul-Rauf did not possess as much range as Curry (probably in part for the reason that you state, because shooting those kinds of shots was frowned upon and actually a preposterous notion for a point guard), but he was quicker than Curry.

I concur that he would almost certainly be an All-Star in today's game. Like Curry, Abdul-Rauf possessed a lightening-quick shooting release off the cross-over.

[Mulhollanddrive]

"Lee of The Vertical: Cavs not resembling a contender".

I'm still not sure who or what that is.

But to be fair, nobody knows what Yahoo does anymore.

[Bogyo]

Great comparison. I ve lived in Boulder for a year (when Denver shocked Seattle in the playoffs), and saw about 4-5 games live too.
He was a very good player, and with todays technology, training, rules, etc... he would be even better.

[jcsunsfan]

The player Steph Curry resembles most--in build, game, shot form, release --is Dell Curry.

[GMATCallahan]

The player Steph Curry resembles most--in build, game, shot form, release --is Dell Curry.

... but the difference is that S. Curry does most of his work off the dribble—D. Curry recalibrated as a point guard. D. Curry, of course, was a traditional shooting guard who primarily played off the ball and would catch-and-shoot, especially running and curling off baseline down screens, much like Reggie Miller. Stephen Curry has the ability of those historic shooters—Dell Curry, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen—except as a guy who spearheads an offense off the dribble, which pretty much makes him the best shooter in NBA history.

[GMATCallahan]

Great comparison. I ve lived in Boulder for a year (when Denver shocked Seattle in the playoffs), and saw about 4-5 games live too.
He was a very good player, and with todays technology, training, rules, etc... he would be even better.

... not sure that technology and training would make much of a difference (I feel that today's players are pampered more than ever and possess less stamina as a result), but today's rules and concepts are designed to cater to this kind of player and make the game as easy as possible for him, primarily by maximizing court spacing, preventing defenses from 'zoning' the lane, and optimizing the pick-and-roll as a result. Plus, since so few players possess major post-up skills nowadays and not that many excel at constantly moving off the basketball any longer, offenses ended up being dominated by ball-handlers by default.

Abdul-Rauf averaged 18.0 points and 4.7 assists with a .526 True Shooting Percentage over his last four seasons in Denver from '92-'93 through '95-'96. Today, he might be averaging 21.0-24.0 points, 6.0-8.5 assists, and a .550-plus True Shooting Percentage.

Recall the statistical leap enjoyed by Steve Nash when he entered Mike D'Antoni's offense, with D'Antoni constituting the first coach to apply the spatial concepts and lineups that would fully dovetail with (or mine) the rules changes. (Prior to joining D'Antoni at the age of thirty, Nash had never averaged as many as 9.0 assists per game in a season or shot as high as .490 from the field in a season.) Now, over a decade later, D'Antoni's principles and notions are used liberally throughout the NBA.

But to your point about technology and training, I could see a benefit to Abdul-Rauf in the sense that the basketball world—now under the sway of "analytics"—would have encouraged him to develop even greater range.

... some more Abdul-Rauf highlights from the '95-'96 season for those interested. You will definitely see some "Curry," especially on the play that starts at the 6:47 mark of the first video.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sewdK-uoX3I[/youtube]

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1995&b=19951124&tm=DAL

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXGRNGWNk0I&ebc=ANyPxKqmcoI_K9GbFwbQQcrvPQp7iK0IiXHHZEe4f1MTrzsgYL3m_8zsh_WLVCs-BKmp0SvvPoQgsrSrldZqybxLxTrWiJKgmA[/youtube]

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1995&b=19951207&tm=UTA

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiCpet86WRQ[/youtube]

http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1995&b=19960204&tm=DEN

And he was doing it against Hall of Fame (or future Hall of Fame) guards, by the way.

[GMATCallahan]

By the way, Steve Kerr himself cited Abdul-Rauf for an analogy to Curry earlier in the month (for good reason, considering that Kerr was often on the other end of Abdul-Rauf's pyrotechnics in that last video that I posted).

“The only guys I can think of that are close would be Mark Price, Steve Nash and Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf,” Kerr said. “He had a lot of that, but didn’t have the same range that Steph has. Nash didn’t have the speed. But Mark Price, Steph’s very similar to Price. Price had that package, but not to the extent Steph has it.”

http://nypost.com/2015/02/06/warriors-kerr-i-couldnt-be-the-third-splash-brother/

The difference is that Nash and Price were true point guards, so the best comparison really is Abdul-Rauf.

[Bogyo]

I was specifically thinking physical training (among others) to be honest. Somewhere I read about Currys training methods, and I remember being shocked by the stuff he did, and I did hit the weights pretty hard back in college ( I used to work in a GYM during that time, and got fairly educated about it). I dont remember the exatc weight, but I do remember that Curry is the second best in deadlift on the whole Warriors team, which is a total shocker to me. Iggy, Ezeli, Green, Speights, Bogut, Barnes? I mean these guys are pretty big and/or ripped.
This type of stuff helps on his quickness, strenght, durability, stamina - all crucial for his game, and shooting.

[GMATCallahan]

I was specifically thinking physical training (among others) to be honest. Somewhere I read about Currys training methods, and I remember being shocked by the stuff he did, and I did hit the weights pretty hard back in college ( I used to work in a GYM during that time, and got fairly educated about it). I dont remember the exatc weight, but I do remember that Curry is the second best in deadlift on the whole Warriors team, which is a total shocker to me. Iggy, Ezeli, Green, Speights, Bogut, Barnes? I mean these guys are pretty big and/or ripped.
This type of stuff helps on his quickness, strenght, durability, stamina - all crucial for his game, and shooting.

I am sure that that sort of dedication has helped him. On the other hand, such training might have been more important to him, or might have made a greater difference for him, than with some other players, because Curry is naturally slight of build and not an explosive athlete. Charles Barkley, for instance, rarely lifted weights (especially until '95-'96, when he publicly considered retiring during the season until the Suns' doctors and medical staff convinced him to try weight-lifting, most of all for his legs). However, Barkley had exploded over and powered through most NBA players over the course of his career.

[GMATCallahan]

The player Steph Curry resembles most--in build, game, shot form, release --is Dell Curry.

By the way, this point leads me to another one—namely that S. Curry's shooting ability will not be easily replicated. You hear commentators talking about how Curry's phenomenal prowess will lead kids to emulate him and change the game in his direction, and there might be a smidgen of truth to that idea. But the fact that Curry's father was one of the best, purest, and rangiest shooters in the NBA is hardly a coincidence. Similarly, the fact that Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Bonds are the sons of All-Star outfielders (Ken Griffey Sr. and Bobby Bonds) is hardly a coincidence, and the fact that Peyton Manning and Eli Manning are the sons of a Pro Bowl quarterback (Archie Manning) is not accidental. All the practice and emulation in the world cannot take the place of a certain kind of paternal upbringing (not to mention genetic disposition).

[Bogyo]

It s also pretty amazing how many long 2s he took (and made). Today half of those shot would be (step back) 3 pointers.

[ATTL]

I was specifically thinking physical training (among others) to be honest. Somewhere I read about Currys training methods, and I remember being shocked by the stuff he did, and I did hit the weights pretty hard back in college ( I used to work in a GYM during that time, and got fairly educated about it). I dont remember the exatc weight, but I do remember that Curry is the second best in deadlift on the whole Warriors team, which is a total shocker to me. Iggy, Ezeli, Green, Speights, Bogut, Barnes? I mean these guys are pretty big and/or ripped.
This type of stuff helps on his quickness, strenght, durability, stamina - all crucial for his game, and shooting.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25207008/stephen-curry-can-deadlift-400-pounds



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[Bogyo]

I was specifically thinking physical training (among others) to be honest. Somewhere I read about Currys training methods, and I remember being shocked by the stuff he did, and I did hit the weights pretty hard back in college ( I used to work in a GYM during that time, and got fairly educated about it). I dont remember the exatc weight, but I do remember that Curry is the second best in deadlift on the whole Warriors team, which is a total shocker to me. Iggy, Ezeli, Green, Speights, Bogut, Barnes? I mean these guys are pretty big and/or ripped.
This type of stuff helps on his quickness, strenght, durability, stamina - all crucial for his game, and shooting.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25207008/stephen-curry-can-deadlift-400-pounds



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Yup, that's like it. I read a more detailed version somewhere, and I had this 400 pounds in the back of my mind, but I was afraid to type it becouse it's just ridicoulus. Tks for digging it up!

(as for Boykins bench pressing 315 - thats also an eye popper, but these really short dudes have it easier on the bench press a bit, as they have to move the weights a lot less. I alwasy sucked in that becouse of my long arms - I had to move the same weight up like 20 inches while the short dudes only like 10...)