Suns History

[bwgood77]

I thought it might be interesting to have a thread devoted to Suns history and any memories you have or just general information you may have from the past that others might not know about. Or just discuss your favorite moments.

This gave me the idea. http://www.nba.com/suns/gallery/every-game-seven-suns-history

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I wouldnt classify Marion as an elite rebounder...

[Kerrsed]

I wouldnt classify Marion as an elite rebounder...

You know, i take that back, i guess i just have a bad memory. In my book an "Elite Rebounder" is one that averages over 10 rebounds a game, and Marion did do that for the most part his entire time here. I can admit when i am wrong, and i was wrong. Dont know how that even slipped my memory.

[bwgood77]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Chris_Coffel/status/745012202273312768[/tweet]

Lol this is stupid. Marion was an elite rebounder.

I wouldnt classify Marion as an elite rebounder, but he was a good rebounder for his position (SF) and Amare was only a decent rebounder for his position (PF).

2004-5

Defensive Rebounds
1. Kevin Garnett ▪ MIN 861
2. Shawn Marion ▪ PHO 680
3. Kurt Thomas ▪ NYK 661
Dirk Nowitzki ▪ DAL 661
5. Ben Wallace ▪ DET 610

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2005.html

2005-6

Defensive Rebounds
1. Kevin Garnett ▪ MIN 752
2. Dwight Howard ▪ ORL 734
3. Shawn Marion ▪ PHO 710
4. Tim Duncan ▪ SAS 650
5. Ben Wallace ▪ DET 622

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html

I mean all those other guys are pretty much 7 footers or rebounding specialists, and he is 6'7 and a SF

Actually here is a summary....if you can rank in the top 8 in the league in 6 years, and 21st ALL time in rebounds, as a SF, I'd call that elite.

Defensive Rebounds
2000-01 NBA 628 (7)
2001-02 NBA 592 (7)
2002-03 NBA 574 (8)
2004-05 NBA 680 (2)
2005-06 NBA 710 (3)
2006-07 NBA 613 (6)
Career NBA 7369 (21)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mariosh01.html

Also look at the 20 guys ahead of him in all time rebounds...all are much bigger than him. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/drb_career.html


Also didn't realize this...not sure why..

Steals Per Game
2002-03 NBA 2.3 (3)
2003-04 NBA 2.1 (2)
2004-05 NBA 2.0 (4)
2005-06 NBA 2.0 (5)
2006-07 NBA 1.9 (6)
2007-08 NBA 2.0 (7)

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Spoiler:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Chris_Coffel/status/745012202273312768[/tweet]

Lol this is stupid. Marion was an elite rebounder.

I wouldnt classify Marion as an elite rebounder, but he was a good rebounder for his position (SF) and Amare was only a decent rebounder for his position (PF).

2004-5

Defensive Rebounds
1. Kevin Garnett ▪ MIN 861
2. Shawn Marion ▪ PHO 680
3. Kurt Thomas ▪ NYK 661
Dirk Nowitzki ▪ DAL 661
5. Ben Wallace ▪ DET 610

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2005.html

2005-6

Defensive Rebounds
1. Kevin Garnett ▪ MIN 752
2. Dwight Howard ▪ ORL 734
3. Shawn Marion ▪ PHO 710
4. Tim Duncan ▪ SAS 650
5. Ben Wallace ▪ DET 622

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html

I mean all those other guys are pretty much 7 footers or rebounding specialists, and he is 6'7 and a SF

Actually here is a summary....if you can rank in the top 8 in the league in 6 years, and 21st ALL time in rebounds, as a SF, I'd call that elite.

Defensive Rebounds
2000-01 NBA 628 (7)
2001-02 NBA 592 (7)
2002-03 NBA 574 (8)
2004-05 NBA 680 (2)
2005-06 NBA 710 (3)
2006-07 NBA 613 (6)
Career NBA 7369 (21)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mariosh01.html

Also look at the 20 guys ahead of him in all time rebounds...all are much bigger than him. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/drb_career.html


Also didn't realize this...not sure why..

Steals Per Game
2002-03 NBA 2.3 (3)
2003-04 NBA 2.1 (2)
2004-05 NBA 2.0 (4)
2005-06 NBA 2.0 (5)
2006-07 NBA 1.9 (6)
2007-08 NBA 2.0 (7)

Marion has always been criminally underrated by fans and sports writers alike. Dude was incredible, one of a kind. He belongs in the Ring ASAP. Best player in his draft class, arguably best wing defender of his generation, and arguably the best SF of his generation.

[saintEscaton]

Marion was a one of kind player at that time (Draymond eclipsed him this season tho). Shame he never made an All-NBA Defensive team, but I would argue that AK47's brief peak between 2004 and 2006 was even more dominant, he was a perennial DPOY candidate/5 X 5 threat and the best shot blocking wing defender. But I will never forgive him for ruining our best shot at a ring by preventing the KG trade from happening because of his refusal to re-sign with a team that wouldn't give the full max. He settled for less anyways in Dallas and the SSOL era unceremoniously ended with the acquisition of Shaq

[Big NBA Fan]

Marion was a one of kind player at that time (Draymond eclipsed him this season tho). But I will never forgive him for ruining our best shot at a ring by preventing the KG trade from happening because of his refusal to re-sign with a team that wouldn't give the full max. He settled for less anyways in Dallas and the SSOL era unceremoniously ended with the acquisition of Shaq

Even if you believe the SSOL era ended after Matrix was gone, you must also acknowledge that the best overall team during the Nash era was the 2010 team which DID NOT have Marion. That team had EVERYTHING!

- Healthy Amare who was still incredibly dominant

- Elite rim protector in Lopez

- The awesome defense of Hill

- The great shooting back-court of Nash/J-Rich

- A really good bench

- Good coaching by Gentry, who proved to be a better fit than Porter and a better coach overall than MDA.

They pretty much had no weaknesses.

Marion has nobody but himself to blame for how things ended and I actually think he became over-rated in a hurry because it seemed like people just enjoyed blaming Shaq for everything despite the fact that: (And I am not a big Shaq fan)

- Marion was garbage and totally ineffective in Miami during his contract year; he had every opportunity to prove he was better than 37 year old, supposedly washed-up Shaq and he stunk in Miami during his lone season, averaging a pathetic 12/8 and getting traded a year later and then later trashing them on his way out.

- The Heat had very high hopes for Matrix, and he failed pretty badly during his time there, which is why they traded him so quickly despite the fact that he was playing with Prime Wade.

- No team in the NBA, even the Mavericks, offered him anywhere near as much as he demanded from the Suns, and his whiny attitude resulted in MDA/Nash growing sick and tired of him, which is why they both pushed to get rid of him.

- He has ONE...count it...ONE good year in his seven years after he complained his way out of Phoenix, which was 2011.

2010- Loses in the first round and he no-showed against the Spurs just like he did in the 2005 WCF against them.

2012- Swept in the first round

2013- Misses the playoffs

2014- Loses in the first round again and disappears against the Spurs yet again.

2015- Retired after an ineffective season with the Cavs

Why don't his fans point this out? Matrix seems like a really good person, but I think his supporters overly-protect him and his legacy just like the MJ supporters like Skip Bayless bash LeBron at every opportunity because he's a threat to MJ's legacy as the GOAT.

Shaq's numbers in 2009 blew Marion's out of the water during that same season.

- 18/8 on 61% shooting.

- All Star Game MVP

- All-NBA 3rd Team

- Led league in FG%

- Had the best plus/minus ratio on the Suns

- 12th highest PER in the ENTIRE NBA

I really don't know what more he could have done that season. It's not his fault that:

- MDA (Who wanted him more than anyone) quit

- That Porter was chosen over Budenholzer and Gentry

- That Amare missed 30 games and Diaw was NOT available for any one of those games.

The 2010 Suns record after 53 games? 31-22.

2009 Suns record after 53 games? 30-23, which is the EXACT moment when Amare was lost for the season and Diaw was no longer on the team.

Yet, the Suns only missed the playoffs by ONE game that year. If Amare never got hurt and Gentry had coached instead of Porter, the 2009 Suns would have easily made the playoffs and been a bigger threat than the 2008 Suns were for a few reasons.

- Gentry > MDA

- Shaq was sensational in 2009, which was much better for him than the previous year.

- Hill would have been available in the playoffs instead of missing them like he did the previous year, when the guy he was going to guard (Tony Parker) totally destroyed the Suns.

Amount of playoff appearances for the Suns since Amare left in 2010? Zero.

Yet, the Marion supporters don't mention these things because it doesn't fit their agenda.

The SSOS offense under Gentry averaged 140 PPG BEFORE Amare's season-ending injury and 118 PPG WITHOUT Amare/Diaw and with Barnes starting at PF for crying out loud! How is that "slowing a team down?"

They averaged 112 PPG under MDA with Shaq and MORE fast-break points than they did with Marion that year before the trade.

When they wanted to run with Shaq, they ran with no problem at all under MDA/Gentry.

The one who was primarily responsible for slowing the team down was Porter.

I didn't hear that Kurt Thomas prevented the Suns from running.

I don't read that the Warriors can't run because of Bogut.

People just like to blame Shaq for everything even though he thoroughly outplayed Matrix in 2009.

Who knows what might have happened in 2008 if Duncan misses that crazy shot in Game 1 and Grant had been able to slow down Parker?

Who knows what happens in 2009 if Amare doesn't miss the final 30 games and Gentry was coaching instead of Porter? They would have been a dangerous team that year.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I agree that Shaq had a couple very good years in Phoenix, and that team could have been a lot better than it ultimately was. But he was also toxic to the locker room, and that really hurt us. Had there been no Terry Porter, and Amare worn goggles one game earlier, we would have been dangerous.

But Marion was a team player - the "whining" was dramatically overstated. Fans were growing impatient having not won with such great teams. Though his numbers took a hit playing out east, he was critical to that championship Mavs team - they simply would not have won had Marion not wrecked LeBron defensively.

[Big NBA Fan]

I agree Matrix was a sensational defender, but LeBron totally choked in that series more than getting locked-down by Marion. It was just weird seeing him so passive like he was in that series.

I also agree that Shaq/Nash never clicked, but Shaq was voted team-captain that year, so how toxic could he have been? But he was incredibly toxic in Miami, which is why they were desperate to get rid of him.

Jared Dudley said "You either like Shaq or you don't. There is no middle."

It's also no secret that MDA/Nash pushed to get rid of Shawn.

I think it's very questionable that they would have beaten the Spurs with the pre-trade team with no KT anymore to guard Prime Duncan and I highly doubt they were beating the Lakers with MVP Kobe and Prime Gasol.

It goes to show that you have to be healthy and lucky at the same time to win a title.

The 2011 Mavericks had a lousy record without Dirk that season. He's the main reason they won.

The 2004 Suns WITH Marion only won 29 games when Amare missed 27 and there wasn't Diaw either.

Marion isn't perfect, you know?

[Big NBA Fan]

Plus, just about every player from the 2009 team has blamed the Porter experiment for that forgettable season.

And MDA left because he refused to practice defense; that had nothing to do with Shaq since Kerr/MDA butted heads from the very beginning of the season. Mike has since said that he wishes he never quit.

Porter's hiring was 100% Kerr's fault and he has admitted it; to his credit, he replaced him when it became clear the team was no longer responding to Terry.

But you know Porter was a bad fit when he only lasted 3 months and when several players openly complained about him and then later blamed him for that season.

The 2009 Suns were probably the unhappiest locker-room in NBA history during the Porter era; it's not a coincidence that the complaining ended immediately after he was fired.

To me, Porter either misled the organization during the interview process or Kerr just badly misjudged what the players wanted since they were whining about Porter from the beginning of training camp.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Solid posts, Big. I was in favor of trading Marion for Shaq - I thought we needed to mix it up. That team had gotten a bit stale by that point. And in their primes, Amare was clearly the better player. I'm not saying Marion was perfect, but he was amazing, and terribly underrated. I thought too much emphasis was placed on the "whining." I wasn't aware that Nash/MDA pushed for his exit - most of that stuff is kept behind the scenes anyways.

I'm not old enough to have watched the Hawk or Walter Davis, even. Hawk was only great for us for a short period. Based on video I've seen of Davis, and given Hawk's short tenure, I feel comfortable concluding that Shawn is the best SF in Suns history. FWIW.

[RaisingArizona]

Not to thread **** but, aren't you guys tired of talking about the disappointing past? Maybe it's just me but it angers me to even think about what should've been.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Not to thread **** but, aren't you guys tired of talking about the disappointing past? Maybe it's just me but it's angers me to even think about what should've been.

I'm proud of what was, even if it didn't result in rings. Those were great years.

[RaisingArizona]

Not to thread **** but, aren't you guys tired of talking about the disappointing past? Maybe it's just me but it's angers me to even think about what should've been.

I'm proud of what was, even if it didn't result in rings. Those were great years.

Fair enough. It could just be me. I didn't want to detract from the thread.

[bwgood77]

Not to thread **** but, aren't you guys tired of talking about the disappointing past? Maybe it's just me but it's angers me to even think about what should've been.

I'm proud of what was, even if it didn't result in rings. Those were great years.

I agree. I don't want to talk too much about last year. Now THAT was disappointing. And ginobili, do you like talking about our disappointing current state more than some of our great years?

[sunskerr]

Very interesting debate in this thread about Shaq.

I wanna say that I thought we could have been pretty good with Shaq in the middle and running an uptempo offense. We essentially ended up doing the same thing in 09-10 when we replaced Frye in the starting lineup with Robin Lopez. Grant Hill was a suitable replacement for Marion, providing more ball movement and a second ball handler when Nash wasn't running the show. Marion was starting to decline in 07-08 fairly noticeably even though he was still pretty good. The trade was pretty lateral in the year 07-08 though, despite us having a great record we weren't really competing with some of the better teams. Terry Porter was a huge overreaction as well.

What we could have done however (instead of Shaq) was just suck it up and trade Amare for Kevin Garnett when Marion said he didn't want to go to Boston in the summer of 07. We were the only team KG said he wanted to go to in 2007. We still had the 05-06 MIP Boris Diaw to replace Amare and KG would have instantly shored up any defensive issues we were facing back then (PnR defense and rim protection). Nobody would have been able to stop us with Nash/Bell/Marion/Diaw/KG.

[DirtyDez]

Very interesting debate in this thread about Shaq.

I wanna say that I thought we could have been pretty good with Shaq in the middle and running an uptempo offense. We essentially ended up doing the same thing in 09-10 when we replaced Frye in the starting lineup with Robin Lopez. Grant Hill was a suitable replacement for Marion, providing more ball movement and a second ball handler when Nash wasn't running the show. Marion was starting to decline in 07-08 fairly noticeably even though he was still pretty good. The trade was pretty lateral in the year 07-08 though, despite us having a great record we weren't really competing with some of the better teams. Terry Porter was a huge overreaction as well.

What we could have done however (instead of Shaq) was just suck it up and trade Amare for Kevin Garnett when Marion said he didn't want to go to Boston in the summer of 07. We were the only team KG said he wanted to go to in 2007. We still had the 05-06 MIP Boris Diaw to replace Amare and KG would have instantly shored up any defensive issues we were facing back then (PnR defense and rim protection). Nobody would have been able to stop us with Nash/Bell/Marion/Diaw/KG.

Why were we trying to trade Marion to Boston?

[sunskerr]

Why were we trying to trade Marion to Boston?

It was supposed to be a 3 teamer with us getting KG and Marion going to Boston. Not sure what the Wolves were getting (picks/Al Jefferson?). Marion didn't want to resign in Boston though. I think Amare was another acceptable alternative for the other teams instead of Marion but we didn't want to part with him.

[GMATCallahan]

I thought it might be interesting to have a thread devoted to Suns history and any memories you have or just general information you may have from the past that others might not know about. Or just discuss your favorite moments.

This gave me the idea. http://www.nba.com/suns/gallery/every-game-seven-suns-history

The problem with whoever writes up some of that stuff (at the link) is that they probably never viewed some of the games in question, or they have not done so recently enough for their viewing to matter (or they do not know what they are seeing). Instead, they just make assumptions based on hype and the scanning of box scores. Take this line about Game Seven of the 1994 Western Conference Semifinals at Houston:

Barkley was brilliant, going off for 24 points, 15 rebounds, four assists and three steals.

... very good numbers, yes, but anyone who has viewed or studied this game recently (I have done so quite a bit in the last six years and will do so again soon) would not call Barkley's performance in that game "brilliant" and would not claim that he "went off." Given that he was hobbled (I will discuss that matter more some other time), his production proved impressive, but his performance was neither sterling nor dominant. Although he shot 7-12 on two-point field goal attempts and 4-5 from the free throw line, he shot just 2-7 on threes—too many attempts for a .270 three-point shooter on the season and a .256 career three-point shooter. (His ultimate career three-point field goal percentage of .266 is the worst in history for anyone with at least 1,000 attempts, and he attempted over 2,000.) Any time that Barkley attempted more threes than free throws, the Suns were unlikely to win.

Barkley was unable to do much in the second half and especially the fourth quarter, as Kevin Johnson and A.C. Green had to pick up the slack. K.J. produced 14 points and 7 assists (none to Barkley) in the second half and scored or assisted on 14 consecutive Phoenix points in the fourth quarter—with Barkley scoring none of those points. By the fourth quarter, Sir Charles was simply serving as a decoy and a screen-setter. Worse, the guy that Barkley guarded for the most part, Robert Horry, scored 15 points on 7 field goal attempts, in large part because of Barkley's reluctance to defend out to the three-point line. (The Suns had inserted Green into the starting lineup in Game Six, and shifted Barkley off Otis Thorpe, because Barkley could not handle Thorpe in the low post, either.)

None of those comments are to blame Barkley for the loss, certainly. But a "brilliant" performance it certainly was not. It was productive and respectable, especially given his physical circumstances, but he was not Phoenix's best player in that game (nor was he the only player who had excelled for the Suns in Game Seven of the 1993 Western Conference Finals), and his play was not remotely on Hakeem Olajuwon's level.

But did you know that Barkley was an MVP?

By the way, contrary to that blurb on 1994, the Rockets won Games Three, Four, and Five prior to Game Seven, not Games Three, Five, and Six. Once again, who is writing this stuff?

... strange also how Kevin Johnson is never mentioned in any of the text for any of the Game Sevens, given that he ranks fourth all time in points per Game Seven among players who have played in at least three such games (behind only Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and George Gervin) and is tied for fifth all time in assists per Game Seven among players who have played in at least three such games (trailing Russell Westbrook, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Bob Cousy while tied with Steve Nash, and I feel that the official scorer in Houston shortchanged K.J. of one assist in that 1994 Game Seven).

By the way, contrary to what one might assume given the photograph used in that slide, Game Seven of the 1976 Western Conference Finals took place at Golden State. The Suns went in there and took Game Seven from the defending champions in their arena.

[GMATCallahan]

I agree Matrix was a sensational defender, but LeBron totally choked in that series more than getting locked-down by Marion. It was just weird seeing him so passive like he was in that series.

He was passive primarily because he lacked the game that he needed to win a championship; at that point in his career, James still basically possessed no post-up game and no mid-range game. And for a guy who is generally a mediocre perimeter shooter (at best) to have no post-up game or mid-range game ... it catches up to you eventually, and that deficiency will make you passive. I will address this matter more in the "2016 playoffs" thread when I can.

I also agree that Shaq/Nash never clicked, but Shaq was voted team-captain that year, so how toxic could he have been? But he was incredibly toxic in Miami, which is why they were desperate to get rid of him.

Jared Dudley said "You either like Shaq or you don't. There is no middle."

Based on that quotation, I can see Dudley and many of the Suns being on one side and Nash and maybe someone else here or there being on the other. There is no question that Nash was on the anti-Shaq side. As I noted in another thread, according to Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports in the summer of 2009, Nash basically forced O'Neal out of town, only agreeing to a contract extension after Steve Kerr had agreed to jettison Shaq.

I think it's very questionable that they would have beaten the Spurs with the pre-trade team with no KT anymore to guard Prime Duncan and I highly doubt they were beating the Lakers with MVP Kobe and Prime Gasol.

Yeah, imagining the 2008 Suns defeating either the Spurs or the Lakers in the playoffs is difficult. Envisioning Phoenix beating both San Antonio and Los Angeles that year is virtually impossible.